Scottish Independance on the Streets.

So, the other day I got into quite a heated debate in the middle of the street on the issue of Scottish independence and saw what I think would be fair to call the ugly side of the “yes campaign”. Now I am sure that the “better together” crowd also have their ugly side but its the “YES” group that have gave me cause to write this thread.

Firstly let me say I am a undecided voter, in principle I would support a independent Scottish State however I have yet to see any clear plan as to how this would work from the “YES” campaign and for that reason I am leaning towards voting no.

Anyway to get onto what happened to me the other day that showed me the ugly and dare I say it the “Ignorant” side of the “YES” campaign.

Yesterday I was walking down the high street in my local town and as anyone living in Scotland will know you cannot walk down a street these days with out coming across a stall with a big “YES” stamped on it with guys and gall's out to convince you to vote for independence. Well I came across quite a large one of these stalls with a huge group of people. I stopped for one reason, a guy stopped me with a big blue “YES” on his chest and said “have you registered to vote yet”. Now to my eternal shame I had not actually registered so I walked over to his little wooden table and filled out the form to ensure I get to make my vote count. Then big blue “YES” man done something else, he asked me to fill out a little card to confirm I would be voting “yes”, I then politely said “I am only here to registrar to vote, never said I was voting yes”. And this started a rather long debate that seemed to gather quite a crowd in which I saw what I am calling the “ugly” side to the “YES” campaign.

As soon as the words “I am a undecided voter but leaning towards no” left my mouth these guys were on me like vultures. First the young man with the big blue “YES” stamped across his chest started on me. He was bedazzling me with his facts about Scottish poverty and going on about all those awful wars we were dragged into how Scotland has been dealt such a rough deal by Westminster and so on. It was actually quite a impressive argument, he made several very good points my only rebuttal was to say that I have yet to see any actual proof that a Independent Scotland could do any better.

This seems to be where they got a little upset. A second older man bashed into the conversation blue “YES” man was shunned to the side. What followed was the most idiot argument I have ever heard for independence. The guy pressed me on why I would be against independence, I explained that part of my argument was that I did not believe we could ever have true independence if the Queen was head of state and we were using the pound and in the EU because we would still be surrendering some of our sovereignty and would never be truly independent. Further more that because of this I believed Scotland could never actually be truly independent and as such I would much rather we had more devolved powers.

This really got the older man annoyed. In some very colourful language he explained to me that the “F##kin English” were the problem that the “C##ts in Westminster had none nothing for us” and the the royal family were a bunch of “Lazy English B####rds”. I told him that there was more to the UK than the English and what he was saying could be considered as racism under UK law. I said for all you know I could have welsh mother and a English father but have been born in Scotland. His response was that I was “part of the F##ing problem then”.

I should point out that at this point I had not swore once (and never did) yet this guy was really going for it.

He really did not like the “English” monarchy in particular something that I used in my debate with him. I asked him if his hate of the “English” monarchy was a big reason for him voting no to which he said it was. To this I point out to him that this was a pretty dumb reason to vote yes because under the current plan for independence the Queen would still be head of state so independence would not change this for him. He then started on about something called the “Kingdom of Scotland” and then his argument honestly lost me.

By this point quite a crowd had has appeared quite a few people heckling me and quite a few nodding with agreement so in walked “Independence woman”. She literally screened in my face “WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU FROM??”. I responded honestly and said I was from the United kingdom of great Britain and the provenance of Northern Ireland. “NOOOOO!!!!!” she cried “WHAT COUNTRY WERE YOU BORN IN”. I then explained to her I was born in what she might call the nation of Scotland. So she said “you are Scottish?”, “no” I said “I am British.”.

She then started to say that come the 18h of September I was either with my fellow countrymen or against them. I gave her the rebuttal that while her “countrymen” are just the people of Scotland mine are all the people of the UK.

Again she did not like that.

She then started to talk about how “the” English had stole our oil and that with independence we would get it back and become “The richest country on earth”......

“you must be very nieve if you believe that they will give a independent Scotland all that oil” I told her.

She then started tell me blatant lies, apparently she was at a meeting of the biggest oil execs last night who told her that Scotland would be the richest nation on earth.

“hmmmmmm.....” I said, “so you really expect me to believe that the heads of BP, Shell, Gazprom, Total and so on have all came to you personally and told you that”. Further more I added, “ you really believe that the likes of RBS, BAE, BP and all these big companies are going to stay in Scotland in favour of sitting with the Big boys of the UK.

She did not like the fact that I had caught her out.

Her response was this.

No joke.

“Dont get me started on Gaza”

And she walked away.

From across the table I got lots of dirty looks.

I also think I might have to re-registrar on-line to vote because I would not put it past those guys to rip up my voting form.

I should point out that there was actually quite a bit more to this conversation

But I was quick concious of the fact that this thread was turning into a wall of words so I have had to cut out some bits.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with some Yessers. If what you say is true then its very disappointing. I have been campaigning for an independent Scotland for about 40 years and have never been witness to anything such as you describe. If you think it was bad enough then report it to the Police because both sides in this debate do not want any form of violence. There is a big hue and cry at the moment about somebody throwing an egg at Jim Murphy MP. It's poor but not as bad as some of the things that have happened to Yes campaigners. Everybody including Yessers are out looking for the perpetrator.

I will be the first to admit that getting to the truth of the arguments for either side is not easy. What I find fascinating is that there are so many undecideds at this stage. With only about 3 weeks to go to the biggest decision of our lives there are still people living in Scotland who don't know where they stand. After 40 years of studying the subject even I don't know everything, so how people are supposed to get up to speed in a few weeks or months is just impossible.

To get a fair picture you would really have to look back over the past say 10, 20, 30 years and ask yourself if the system we have had over that time has really worked well for Scots. Labour, with speakers like Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy, has dominated Scottish politics since the end of WW2. They are standing there telling us things will be different, better. But they have had 50 years in power and not done anything for Scotland but let it get poorer and poorer. Our industries have been decimated. Britain's nuclear arsenal is stored 30 miles form Glasgow city centre. Scotland has no say in UK foreign policy so yes we are dragged into illegal wars against our will. We have some of the worst housing in Europe, the worst health and with people in poverty and on foodbanks.

Also remember that these Labour MP's who are asking us to stay in Westminster, because that's what Independence means removing ourselves from Westminster control and moving decisions to Edinburgh, with most everything else staying the same, these MP currently are paid to be MP's in Westminster with fat salaries, unlimited expenses and all the other benefits. Of course they are going to argue to stay in because their own jobs are at stake. They will lose their personal incomes and have to find other jobs. You might as well ask a turkey to vote for Christmas. They are not suitable people to rely upon for genuine answers. It wouldn't matter how better off an independent Scotland might become, they don't want it because they personally will be a lot worse off.

If I may can I recommend you go to this website Wings Over Scotland

Look for The Wee Blue Book and have a read at that. It is pretty clear on what Independent Scotland will do.

Also believe me that this is nothing to do with hating the English. Nobody hates the English. Mostly we hate Westminster and the UK Establishment. But then a lot of English people hate them as well. Many English people in Scotland are voting Yes to independence as are people from other nationalities living in Scotland. And many people in England are envious that the Scots have this opportunity too rid themselves of the corrupt Westminster Government and make better decisions and choices for their future. I believe that an independent Scotland will be good for the rest of the UK as it will show what life without Westminster is like and when they see the benefits they will act to gain more control of their affairs. Westminster and London have been 'talking' about decentralisation for decades but they never seem to get round to it. You can either wait for them to do it or vote for independence and take control yourself. Don't waste this opportunity of a lifetime.

a reply to: bigyin

thanks for that dude, really good post.

I want to emphasise that i would be very shocked if all "yesers" were like this, but its my first time actually approaching one of these stalls and the response I got was really quite unbelievable.

To be fair to them the first guy that started the debate with me was really quite a civil chap the rest not so much.

I will check out that link you posted, looks like there is lots of info on their.

The only thing i have against a independent Scotland is that i don't quite see how it is all going to work once it goes through (as i do think they will get a yes). Perhaps in some way it may be my own ignorance that is causing me to lean towards a no although on saying that i have been following the debate closely since the referenda was confirmed.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The only thing that has put me off the independance, now bear with me for I am not a Scot's Resident but my family include the members of the second world war IVY BENSON band, my mother has scot's blood and english blood, I am from northern England so like all the people here we are just a little less scot's or a little more than the old Reaver clan's of the borders and my nan's first husband was full scot's, the guy in the tartan on the bottle of camp coffee (I know he was rumored to be gay and can neither deny or confirm it) was her first husband's relative, I think Uncle or great uncle but in my family and also in my own heritage there is a lot of scot blood, I myself being a Mc.Ardle (which is primarily Irish but also Scot), Oh and I have maori and Jewish as well but you know what they used to say of british sailor's, a girl in every port.

At first I thought well I wish I lived north of the border and could vote as I believe I would then be pro independance but then I remembered how many war graves around the world have scot's, english, welsh and irish boy's lying side by side, they fought with pride for the United Kingdom and though there have always been divisions they blurred over the century's though most scot's are more polite and kinder than most English to generalize and certainly less ignorant than some welsh (I do like the welsh though so that is not to generalize).

I started to have a dream and it was of a great ship, she was proud but then her back broke and she snapped in two, both halve's sank into the waves never to be seen again and as the water rose there were some old folk's all singing Rule Britannia with pride in there heart's but it sounded forlorn and sad, now what struck me was both side's sank beneath the black waves.

United we Stand, Divided We fall.

I would dearly love to give that ignorant older man a piece of my mind but I fear the argument is out of my hand's and can only pray to god that the Scottish people make the right choice, I would have pointed out to him though that the ao called Royal family are not English they are German's and actually Battenbourg's and are not legitimate having been chosen as proxy over the pro catholic Stuart's who remain the legitimate Scottish line while the plantagenet line which is the legitimate English line (At least from the conquerer and we know they are really of Norman French descent so not really English at all and you know the Saxon's married the native woman right so are arguably half or more indiginouse british) still exist but the rightful (Plantagenat) heir to the English throne lives in Australia, his father was tracked down by Tony Robinson (Famous for The Time Team or Baldric to the rest of us, wonder how he got nighted but then the rightful plantagenet gave him a mock or actually legit depending on point of view knighthood) and he was actually a Republican who joked about sending Elizabeth Windsor-(Changed from Battenbourg by her ancestor to sound more British - they are actually house of hanover so Austro Hungarian empire royal's) a bill for four hundred years back rent on his house.

Both side's of the border we are simply people and I happen to be a left winger (The real Right wing it just depend's whose throne we are talking about, god's or the devil's and socialism really traces it's origin to christian ethic's, he is right of god's throne) but this man's opinion and attitude appalls me, don't let him or me flavour your vote though but do what you truly believe is best for your children as they are what matter, this land is not our's it belong's to the generations yet to be born, I am against immigration for just this very reason and believe whitehall to be a treasonous and poisonously treacherous band of self serving sycophantic megalomaniac's and criminal's who are betraying and destroying our children's future, I am pro BRITISH and while I stop short of the likes of the BNP who smack to much of Nazism to me I am very much in favour of an independant and stronger Unified UK but we need to get proper and DEMOCRATIC representation based on proportional voting to ensure a true and legitimate government rather than the placed pawn's of the Tory boy's in both labour and the conservatives we now have and Manchester as was originally planned by Cromwell should be the unified Capital city not london as it is the only major city at the mid section of Britain, were London is the seat of the Old Boy network and the old aristocratic system of power.

I actually believe whole heartedly though he would never willingly do it that Alex Salmond though I may disagree with his anti English stance would be a great British prime minister in the mold of the old good one's, he is arguably the only real politician in the country.

Which is another reason I despair at the waist of his talent and statesmanship and he is correct that whitehall is corrupt and full of conceited clown's but then for the majority of it's history that has always been the case.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Another really good post, I really hope this keeps up in this thread and it does not turn into a yes vs no thread.

I actually brought up WWII and that whole we spill blood together for our freedom together.

I was met with a whole load of stuff about the illegal wars in Iraq, a fair point but i do not think it negates the history the UK as went through these last hundred years or so together.

Interestingly the older man also asked me if "Charlie has a job"?

He was asking me what the Royal family have done, now i do not support the royal family one way or the other I jokingly pointed out that he was over 65 so would be retired. He then asked about his sons. Was quite funny when i pointed out that William had been flying rescue helicopters and donating his entire salary and that Harry has spent two tours in Afghanistan.

What concerns me is that there are some people (not saying a lot of people) who are voting out of spite for their hate of the Royal family, their hate of the current Westminster torry establishment or their racial prejudices against the rest of the UK.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Well Diana's kid's are actually descended from the house of Stuart through her line and so the arranged marriage of charles to her (remember how much older he was and she was really just a young kid) was to ensure there claim to the throne through her line, odd when you think the only british royal in windsor was Dianna and she herself was not a direct claiment to the throne.

As to who is descended from which royal family is not important as apparently 99% of all Europeans alive are descended from at least one medieval monarch or another. I am supposed to be descended from Brian Boru (like millions of other people) and at least 2 others. So to hate the Royal Family is probably to hate your own relatives. There were thousands of kings and queens all having legitimate and illegitimate children all over the place. We all belong to a Royal Family somewhere along the line!!

a reply to: grumpy64

Sorry to go off the topic of the thread which is Scot's independance Referendum, I actually agree that this is true, My mother for instance is the Heir to the Tattershall million's but she has been robbed through fraud orchestrated at the level of the old boy network, but how many of those servant's who worked those great halls were actually the illigitimate children of the randy lord who was taken by the pretty servant girl.

And going further back when the lady's and lord's stank of rotting flesh and used acid to brush there teeth before having some poor girl bonked on the head so there teeth could be implanted in there gum's (Though they needed new one's ever six months or so), back when syphalus and all the other ailment's were rife it was the pretty girl who was poor that got the rich ugly stinking (Filthy rich) bloated lord's attention and the poor (and I think unfortunate) stable hand that aroused the interest of the poxy lady of the mannor (maybe one of the real reasons' lady chatterley's lover though written much later was such a scandalous book).

Then of course most rural villages were in bred so this even further concentrated there genetic imprint and it was only at the time of the industrial revolution we actually started to marry outside of those community's, this may be why people in the north (where the most out breeding took place) have larger brain's than there southern cousins (it is not a marker of IQ but a statistical fact).

a reply to: LABTECH767

Yes there would have been some weird psychopath royals no doubt. Bigger brains? Maybe. When you look at all the things invented by Scots it is out of proportion to the rest of humanity. One of my daughters was born in Scotland (she is above average intelligence) so the vote is a bit of an issue here at the moment. All I can say is proceed with caution!
Don't jump out of the frying pan into the fire as there is nowhere to jump after that. Just remember no one pushes for anything in politics without a hidden agenda. This is ATS trust no one.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Scotland had better vote for independence after all of its great families have been run out, slaughtered and watered down by usurper blood. The house of Stewards is over, the House of Hanover has been destroyed. The current queen is technically a cousin to the House of Alpins, but she has no Scottish loyalty whatsoever.

It is time to put an end to monarchy and to allow the noble families to become equal citizens with all other people. Coming from the clan MacGregor via Nova Scotia into America, I would love to see an independent Scotland. Hell, if I finish my PhD, I might even return to Argyll where my ancestor's last lived prior to fleeing for America, or go up to Fort William and see the sites where my most beloved ancestor was born.

If homeland Scots are anything like the Scottish-Americans here in the states, I can't imagine the heel of British rule rests easily on their necks.

a reply to: Nechash

No offence

But you're argument might have stood 300 years ago but not now, yes the noble families are no longer about but independence will never change that. Its old history we are in 2014 we need to do what is best for the nation today not do what is in the interests of revenge for the past.

And you being for the MacGregor clan actually means we may be related so its good to meet you brother.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

What was offensive about that?

Growing up hearing stories about the Catholic Church and all the whole mess that surrounded the invasions, I can't help but have a hatred for monarchy entirely. Even the Scottish form that existed previously was nowhere near egalitarian enough for my tastes, but at least those leaders had loyalty to their people and concern for their welfare. A person who rules like a populist, taking the expedient course will ruin the country in the long run, and that is the only benefit monarchy ever had. If they are simply going to wave their hand and permit whatever the people desire, then they should at least give them a proper democracy, or at the very least a republic.

If the UK unshackled itself from monarchy entirely, I could see your argument, and I understand that it is purely psychological, but monarchy is a stain on human history and its continued presence in any form anywhere on the globe is a symptom of an inherently slavish society. Ultimately, my personal goal is to see a global citizenry coupled by a world system of justice, but that must be in a proper form, one where people are free, their governments responsive to their needs, and justice is equally applied to all people. So long as power and wealth continue to be passed down one generation to the next, this dream will never exist.

The aristocracy of every generation should lead people into excellency, but they should not have an easy road, secured for them by birth. Theirs should be a meritocratic aristocracy, one forged in the fires of achievement. And if they are not up to snuff, they should be no better than their common counterparts and if Apollo should rise up out of the ghetto burning his way across the sky, he should be free to ascend to the highest offices imaginable. This strict adherence to class is beneath an inventive, talented, and proactive people.

It is always nice to hear of another cousin, although I'm sure all of humanity is truly one great family. ;p

What could go wrong if Scotland got Independance 5.8 million people holding the biggest booze up the world has ever seen ,nobody would be at their work for a month

200 nukes within 20 miles of Glasgow and all that oil rig's that could be used like firecracker's with Palaistinian flag's flying above Glasgow

What could go wrong

originally posted by: Nechash
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Scotland had better vote for independence after all of its great families have been run out, slaughtered and watered down by usurper blood. The house of Stewards is over, the House of Hanover has been destroyed. The current queen is technically a cousin to the House of Alpins, but she has no Scottish loyalty whatsoever.

It is time to put an end to monarchy and to allow the noble families to become equal citizens with all other people. Coming from the clan MacGregor via Nova Scotia into America, I would love to see an independent Scotland. Hell, if I finish my PhD, I might even return to Argyll where my ancestor's last lived prior to fleeing for America, or go up to Fort William and see the sites where my most beloved ancestor was born.

If homeland Scots are anything like the Scottish-Americans here in the states, I can't imagine the heel of British rule rests easily on their necks.

The land clearances where a crime against humanity, fraud upheld by the sherif in which Laird's and other land owners laid claim to parcels of land and even large villages they simply did not own, this was done mainly by wealthy scot's to the poor scot's or the native population of Scotland would today be comparable or at least over half of that of England, though some that did it were indeed wealthy investors from southern England who were wanting to copy Victoria and have there own hunting land in Caledonia but how many scot's moved to England, actually probable the bulk of the misplaced scot's but there overall population abroad tell's of how many were forced from there ancestral land and moved as far as America, Canada (New Caledonia), Australia New Zealand and other territory's, my home town of liverpool where I was born has an accent that is flavoured by Scot, Welsh and Irish as has the Larger and Rival city of Manchester and the Great city's and entire county of Durham and the Tyneside area, Cumbria, especially carlisle which while a English city has an ethnicity which is primarily of scot's extraction if you go back far enough and was the main cattle trade city for southern and western scotland.

Anti British sentiment abroad no doubt will flavour many opinions but is it correct or simply born of out of date sentiment and old rivalry's caused by a small number of wealthy power and money made colonial's of the past.

I stand by My conviction though I am not a scot's citizen that we are better together but I would really rather put those people at whitehall on a boat to bottany except I supposed if we did the Ausies would be none to pleased at the reduced quality of British export's to there country.

And remember there were two period's of the clearances, after the Jacobite uprising the Campbell clan sought vengence for ancient grudges against there Stuart adversaries, (Stewart, Steward and Stuart - the spelling used for the royal's were the same clan) this led to a what is called a supression of highland clan's and effectively cleared many of them from there home's driving them out of the Caledonian highland's and often to the America's, later were the victorian clearances but scotland has alway's been divided between the lowland clans and the highland clan's and was not always a single country, indeed the name Scot's refers to Irishmen and all the Mac clan's originate from Gealic Irish settler's but not just any settler's, they had a strong Danish viking ancestry mixed with there Galicised bloodline's but most of the Mac Clan's originated from about the area's of lancashire in northern England.
Having brought there viking tradition with them when they invaded northern England this meant only the eldest son could inherit so his sybling's had to go and conquer new land's and Ireland was the prime target with it's rich farmland and green field's, over the next few hundred years as the Dane's took northern england and spread to Ireland and the Saxon's took southern England the Danish viking Brit's found the Irish not so easily defeated and eventually Brian Boru led a army of Irish who included Viking ancestry against the Dane's driving them out so it was brother fighting brother (Limerik in the Irish Free State or Eira is a viking city).
Still growing these Irish Scot's of Danish and Now Irish gael mixed descent invaded Scotland setting up kingdom's such as the kindgom of the Isle's, there number's eventually dwarfed the true caledonian's - the pict's by about two too one but like the Irish the Pict's were no push over and a marriage between a Scot's Prince and a Pictish Princess joined the two kingdom's and people's together.
There is a monument in scotland commemorating a battle in which the viking's were driven from Scotland by the Scot's but remember they have viking blood themselve's.

The problem's between the campbell's and stewart's are another story and at different time's they have both trumpeted the scotish flag and switched allegiances with English pretenders to the scot's throne, a few hundred year's before the Jacobite uprising it was the Stuart's who allied themselves with the English against there campbel rival's who were for the scotish crown and by the time of the Jacobite uprising they had both switched sides and played the opposite number against one another, this was down to clan rivalry and nothing else but today it is a thing of the past or is it.

Celtic clans have very long memory's.

originally posted by: douglas5
What could go wrong if Scotland got Independance 5.8 million people holding the biggest booze up the world has ever seen ,nobody would be at their work for a month

200 nukes within 20 miles of Glasgow and all that oil rig's that could be used like firecracker's with Palaistinian flag's flying above Glasgow

What could go wrong

LOL

Just want to point out a few things for the other posters:

The vote is about whether you think Scotland should run its own affairs or let Westminster continue. Its not a vote for the SNP or Alex Salmond. Once Independence is established there will be general elections in Scotland and peopel can vote for whoever they want to be their leader. Might be Salmond, probably be somebody else.

Currently the SNP policy of running Scotland is to keep the Queen. In future governments that might change. Who knows. But Scots will decide who they want as their head of state.

People have mention previous wars, and in particular WW2. Canadians fought in that, so did Australians, New Zealanders, and members of many other countries which at one time were part of the British Empire. They have all sought and obtained independence from England, continue in some cases to have the Queen as their head of state. So Scotland taking control of their affairs from England is not new and no amount of emotional blackmail should make any difference.

Before the two countries united, King James 6 of Scotland found himself the heir to the throne of England and became James the 1 of England. He united the crowns of England and Scotland. A few years later the parliaments were united. Its this second unification that is being undone, not the first.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Caledonia, what, you don't like the legend of Scota? I always thought it was nice, Egyptian princesses and all being a universal currency. Besides, I hear the land north of the wall got that name because of its rocky soil and even rockier inhabitants. I'm not Gregorius enough to keep up with all of these latin nuances. Personally, I'd prefer somewhere much warmer. We can bring the wine with us.

a reply to: Nechash


Caledonia is what the Roman's called it but the ancient Celt's and Pict's, pechts or painted people (remember other than the german's the only idiginous tribe to totally anihilate a seasoned Roman army, who were fiersome warrior's probably called it by the Gaelic name Albion which does not only mean scotland but the whole island of Britain and in Scotland it was to distinguish it shortened to Alba.

Before the Roman's and before christianity the Celtic warrior's had conquered the native people's of britain and there were several previous influxes of immigration into the country through tribal migration but it is likely that among the Scot's today of Pictish ancestry the oldest True indiginous British blood can still be found.

As for Scota I would say I did not believe it but DNA evidence would possibly prove me wrong so there is probably some truth to the legend, there are also parallels in celtic britain and wales to that story but I believe the true mother of the scot's was the pictish princess.

Here is some interesting Wiki on it and related matter's, Lord MacAlpine is my mothers cousin, I have never met the guy and would not want to, a tory and thatcherite but this is not about politic's.
www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.earlybritishkingdoms.com...
www.mythomorph.com...
blog.ancient.eu...
www.rampantscotland.com...

And of course Scotland has one of the oldest Oral traditions in Britain rivalled only by the welsh.

Of note Scot's is the name the Romans gave to the Irish and most Northern Irish Unionists are of Scotish ancestry (so Scot's who returned to Ireland) and Belfast was built by Scottish Entrepeurs on marshy ground that everyone said a city could not be built on, the scot's have produced some of the finest engineer's in history and are Rightly proud of it and the Clyde used to build the best ships anywhere in the world.

Non violent yesser here.

It boils down to, do you want a government in scotland to manage scotlands resources. Instead of giving the revenue to westminster then having a percentage given back to run our own country.

We already run our own NHS, education and have our own law. We have balanced the books over the last 7 years and still managed to provide free tuition fees, and prescriptions and provide a council tax freeze and compensate a lot of those hit unfairly by the bedroom tax.

I read a fact somewhere that even if every man woman and child in Scotland voted the same political party a general election it would not win. There simply aren't enough of us to influence a UK government that dictates how our revenue is given back to us.

I also heard that 62% of English voters asked were in favor of an all English Parliament, dealing with English affairs.

Why can't we have an independent Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England? yet still remain a "United Kingdom" with the Queen as the sovereign head of state as she is to Australia and New Zealand? Considering all of us in the UK are each others biggest import and export markets?

The arguments against are all far too negative IMO and big politics isn't working, why not try something progressive and new that in time may benefit the whole union as individual states? There isn't a central Scandinavian government and each country has it's own identity and runs its own affairs but still recognises themselves as Scandinavian.

I could quote figures and sources and wax lyrical about the possibilities and implications of Independence all night.
No matter the result it's exciting times for politics highlighting a whole host of issues and ideas worth exploring.
This is the most important vote I'll ever see in my lifetime and to know for once that my vote will actual shape the face of my nation is a great feeling.

The people of Scotland should be reading and learning about there own politics and country instead of worrying about conspiracies here. In my experience everyone who has done their own individual research looking at non bias material comes out seeing Independence as good option. It is a risk to shake the status quo but how else does change happen any other time?

Im sorry that yobs and louts brought a horrible air of intimidation to the debate

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Are you this fellow from Drumchappel
www.nationalheadlines.co.uk...