Hamas admits to kidnapping three Israeli teens

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: CommandoJoe
So I guess no, there were not thousands fired BEFORE Israel took action, but the total is in the thousands NOW...

Which is exactly my point. Cause/effect. Read those link I provided(and the timeline) and you'll see an aggressor, it isn't the supposed victim here.

I did, and they show that Hamas escalated first... Which I quoted above.

Yeah. I've got a pair of those too:



I take them off to deal in politics though.

a reply to: CommandoJoe

Joe, I am going to level with you.

That video? It completely contradicts your view. It smashes everything you have posted in this thread, and others. He moves all of your arguments from statements of truth, into the realm of myth and lies. Likewise, he is not the only one saying such things either. So, I can't trust you. If I can't trust you, why would I believe you? and if I do not believe you, wouldn't I double check EVERYTHING you say?

Wouldn't that be the smart thing to do Joe? Applying Critical Thinking to this situation, instead of blind faith? Yes, it would.

Israel's occupation is about control and oppression. And, given the fact I've learned us non-jewish folk have a different classification and are considered lesser humans, ie, "goy" by some of your religious extremists... it does not shock me knowing what I know now, and how you are treating Palestine thru the lens of International Law.

Like I said, this is the second time you avoided material in that clip. He spells it all out, and, the picture he paints is not the same as yours. I understand if you were at work, just for today. But, I gave it in another thread over two weeks ago.

This tells me the following:

1.) You are not interested in anyone elses view.
2.) You are not interested in the truth.
3.) You know what it will say, and thus, it raises suspicion as to the whole troll link I gave earlier in this thread.
4.) You are here for disinformation to attempt to garner support from "America", and deflect away from the need for war crimes trials.

Hint, "America" is awake and Jeremiah 3:8 applies.

Where you falter is simple. You come here, telling us "3 Israeli's killed, and if you support Hamas, (which automatically is assumed if you side with non-Hamas Palestinians) you are supporting terrorists". That's broken logic. It makes no sense. None of us support Hamas. But we do not support Israel either.

You ignore that Israel itself helped form Hamas. You ignore scapegoating is an integral part of your religion. And you ignore evidences that this is NOT THE first time said methodology has been employed by Israel for political ends. Google has plenty of other items to select and choose from.

Don't you know how to arrest people for suspicion of murder? Seriously. It's blow the # out of a neighborhood community, for #s and giggles instead? That's progress? Yeah, they'll teach 'em.

It's sick Joe. Then you wonder why hatred, animosity, and rockets come from the other side.

That is the impression you are leaving with me. If that is how you truly feel about non-Jewish folk in the 21st century, you need to have your head examined. Leave the goddamn tribal territorial bullcrap in the past, and lets move forward. You are not anymore special than me, and no story book for religious ceremonies will change that. We are genetically compatible.

Now, lets get serious. Many of us here, have studied this for MONTHS. Some of us, used to support your side (like myself, blindly and foolishly). Thousands, upon thousands of hours have been spent not just myself, but others, researching, confirming, and sharing what we have found. It is not like we have reached this conclusion lightly.

Just ONE out of thousands of examples:

What does Article 1 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, say?

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Is Israel following it with Palestine's occupation? Not in my world. Or do you want me to believe that this is following Article 1? That Israel is treating Palestine as equals in humanity as a brotherhood?. I don't think so. Would you like to dive into detail for the remaining 29 articles in that document alone?

So, when you hear about stories, like say, Intentionally Targeting Civilians, and BiBi begging for our help to avoid war crimes trials it severely crushes your credibility.

It also begins to make me severely question the real cause and instigators behind the Holocaust. How can such a horrible thing happen to your people, then, less than 3 years later, "Ethnic Cleansing", ie Genocide, is committed against another people by your leadership? WTF? Explain. Shouldn't you be the vocal champions against ANY said atrocities in the world, for any people, period?

And when I say severely, I mean putting it into the -1000 area of trust. Something about the priorities after said atrocity, smells ripe.

Don't you think it's a bit odd, that the first time Palestinians have been paid any attention to by America, that Hamas continues to "Act up", and then "Claims responsibility" for killing people to prolong a war that is illegal to begin with? It is known as diversionary tactics.

Everyone wants War Crimes trials to proceed. The Palestinian people have already won. Their nightmare is almost over. Hamas is now just there to stir up #, and are being used deflect away from that cold truth. It isn't working with me.

You are pointing out a blip in the radar, compared to the big picture. You bring into the picture a mole hill, against a mountain of evidence. You hope to adjust the viewing angle just enough, so that just the mole hill is focused on.. instead of the Mt Rainer like mountain in the background, in a vain attempt to hope it will all go away.

It won't.

I love Culture Joe. Israel AND Palestine have beautiful cultures and colorful history. Not everything about them is vile. I would really to visit there once. It is after all, part of Humanity's shared heritage. One of Earths Holy Lands. Many bad things have come out of religion, but many good things too. Can we leave all the bad stuff out and celebrate us as a human family?

But no one can visit safely anymore, because y'all are acting bat# insane and refuse to listen to reason and simply accept each other as equals.

a reply to: Not Authorized

I watched the video and have no doubt much of what he says is true. I've said it many times before that I don't agree with everything the Israeli government has done in the past and continues to do.

Israel's occupation is about control and oppression. And, given the fact I've learned us non-jewish folk have a different classification and are considered lesser humans, ie, "goy" by some of your religious extremists... it does not shock me knowing what I know now, and how you are treating Palestine thru the lens of International Law.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find posts by me that are anti-Palestinian yet you seem to think that is my position. As I said before, I have Palestinian friends and have no doubt most of them want to live in peace. I am anti-Hamas and anti-terrorism. I am also not "treating Palestine" any way - You seem to think I am Jewish and/or Israeli - I'm neither. I'm an American here for work... I've stated that in this thread and others... I have no vote or influence in Israel or over what the government does, I haven't served in the IDF and I've done nothing to harm or mistreat any Palestinians.

Some things I take away from the video:

- The very first thing he says is that it is not going to be a balanced presentation - That right there puts up my guard to take what he says with a grain of salt.
- Most of what he talks about is from the early years of Israel. As I said, I'm sure much if not all of that is true, I don't question that. And those things can be verified if someone digs deep enough. Those are not the events that I'm talking about though...
- One particular thing I checked were his claims about Silwan. He gave the impression that this town of 50,000 Palestinians was being demolished because of an archaeological dig related to the history of Jews in the region. I could find nothing to back up that claim. What I found was that Silwan is a neighborhood of Jerusalem (pop. 30,000 - which includes Jews as well), and that 88 homes were set to be demolished for the project. Property is seized through eminent domain around the world for various projects all the time - if these people are not being fairly compensated (And I have no doubt that is a possibility), then that is wrong. 88 homes vs 50k people being evicted is a pretty big exaggeration though and is misleading - This shows his bias and makes me wary of future claims he might make. Not to say it totally discredits him though, only makes me wary of things that can't be verified, or might be exaggerated as well.
- He totally ignores the violence from the Palestinian side, other than casually talking about his Palestinian friend who killed an Israeli soldier like it was no big deal.

Obviously you can't cover the entirety of this situation in a one hour video, I don't expect him to, it just not that simple.

As to Israel creating Hamas, I've been hearing that claim many times in the last week or so. I had never heard that before, and was open to the possibility that it might be true as we know most governments of the world do shady things. But I just read a couple of articles on the subject and didn't really find any evidence to support that claim. It seems that a lack of action by Israel allowed the group to become what it is until it was too late. And at the time they looked the other way because the group that would become Hamas was opposed to the PLO. I didn't see anywhere that Israel actually organized the group, provided money, or material support to them. If you have something that shows otherwise please send it my way. What people here keep claiming is that Israel directly created Hamas and controls Hamas for propaganda & false flag purposes.

Don't you think it's a bit odd, that the first time Palestinians have been paid any attention to by America, that Hamas continues to "Act up", and then "Claims responsibility" for killing people to prolong a war that is illegal to begin with? It is known as diversionary tactics.

I don't hold the position that Hamas killing the teens is the reason or justification for hitting Gaza, and that's not impression I get from the Israeli people I talk to either - the incessant rocket attacks are. When Hamas is not launching rockets, Israel isn't hitting Gaza. That has been my experience living close to Gaza for 5 years... When the teens were missing, Israel didn't start bombing Gaza, they searched the area where it happened, questioned people, and took suspects into custody. When the teens were found dead, Israel didn't start bombing Gaza. When Hamas started launching (more) rockets, Israel started hitting Gaza. Take a look at the timeline of when they went missing, their bodies were found, when rocket fire from Gaza increased, and when the current operation in Gaza started - you'll see if follows the order I listed.

I love Culture Joe. Israel AND Palestine have beautiful cultures and colorful history. Not everything about them is vile. I would really to visit there once. It is after all, part of Humanity's shared heritage. One of Earths Holy Lands. Many bad things have come out of religion, but many good things too. Can we leave all the bad stuff out and celebrate us as a human family?

But no one can visit safely anymore, because y'all are acting bat# insane and refuse to listen to reason and simply accept each other as equals.

Yes there is tons of history and sites to see here. Come on over, the weather's nice. To say that no one can visit safely anymore is not true at all. People still come here all the time even with what is going on. I'm sure tourism is down a bit right now, but it most definitely hasn't stopped.

When the rockets are not incoming I actually feel safer here than most places in the US...

originally posted by: myselfaswell
a reply to: CommandoJoe

So, after Israel admits that it wasn't Hamas, we now have the Israeli press clinging onto some potential fantasy to justify their governments brutal occupation, who would have thought.

Its more like so far after the fact, were it would look less like cold blooded murder and more like some sort of moral equivalences, Hamas implicates ungovernable extreme "cell" did the work for blah, blah, blah reasons.

lol @ "not authorized guy" obv hes a pro muslim..I'm not even jewish and i can see the facts. I seriously can't even read your posts, there isn't any 'real' proof to what you said. it's all pure speculation, i've checked your posts..
What about that son of a high Hamas official who left and told Israel all Hamas's plans??

What about just now how Hamas killed their own people(18 or so) for telling Israel some of their evil plans??

Hamas shooting rockets from Hospital

Do I really need to say more, in above video shows HAMAS shooting rockets from a hospital. Why are people soo
ignorant here.

a reply to: live2beknown

And what does this rehash have to do with the topic?

originally posted by: Mikehawk
a reply to: CommandoJoe

I will have to watch the video later, but thank you for being proactive in the effort to have this looked into further. I wasn't portraying the admission to be factually false but a couple things bug me about how it was said.

The fact that both Israel and Hamas have both already denied Hamas involvement bothers me too. As others said, this might be a last ditch attempt for Israel to save some face due to the recent conflict and negative light it has brought to Israel.

Really though, who can be sure either way?

We are all being played.

Since the admission by khaled meshaal in his video taped interview, the accuracy of the original translation is less critical, but for those that might be interested here's why my friend had to say about the video in my OP:

"yes the translation is 100% correct to the speech,
the words on the slide identical to the english writing before the speech starts"

And for the record, he is Palestinian...

originally posted by: CommandoJoe
Since the admission by khaled meshaal in his video taped interview, the accuracy of the original translation is less critical, but for those that might be interested here's why my friend had to say about the video in my OP:

"yes the translation is 100% correct to the speech,
the words on the slide identical to the english writing before the speech starts"

And for the record, he is Palestinian...

Cool. I believe that. I can't say for everyone else though. I'm pretty open to info that has no support. Other though..... m'eh.

a reply to: CommandoJoe

This thread isn't accurate as it appears there's still no direct connection between Hamas and these kids. From the New York Times:

Under the headline "New Light on Hamas Role in Killings of Teenagers That Fueled Gaza War," Isabel Kershner writes that

the documents, related to an investigation and indictment of the man suspected of leading the kidnappers, provide no evidence that the top leaders of Hamas directed or had prior knowledge of the plot to abduct the three Israeli youths. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and his subordinates asserted as fact that the kidnapping and killing of the three youths was orchestrated by Hamas, which Israel regards as a terrorist group committed to its destruction. He responded by ordering a severe crackdown on Hamas suspects and institutions in the West Bank. Though the documents released on Thursday do not necessarily undercut the Israeli government's assertions, they present a more nuanced picture.

www.fair.org...