Here is my problem with the 2nd amendment...

The united States is number 1 in gun ownership in the world and number 28th in gun related murders. If you take out gun murders from Detroit, New Orleans, Washington DC, and Chicago. We fall to the bottom 5 in gun murders. Out of 216 countries in the world.

Sure their are idiots who own guns and probably shouldnt. But even more idiots who drive cars of use power tools or even reproduce more than they should. I dont see you arguing to take those rights away from people.

a reply to: PraetorianAZ

eh; weak defense;

216 countries?

How many of them are "first world" or "developed" countries? I mean if you want to say that the US has less gun violence than say, Chad, congratulations for stating the obvious.

Frankly I'd rather we be more like switzerland than Chad, you know the swiss, high amount of gun ownership, with registration, and universal background checks, and etc, low amount of crime. I notice you used "crime" in general and not "gun crime" (crime where guns were used) which is a bit dishonest IMO...

mass stabbings in the US are significantly less deadly than mass shootings,

You need to count cities as well, there aren't customs checkpoints between states or counties.

In addition it's important to consider that there has been

Frankly at the same time, I think that we drive too much in the US, though that is a problem of infrastructure and marketing, and can be fixed through changes in subsidies and zoning codes and etc.

a reply to: rockn82

I'm sorry that you didn't realize that everything I wrote was analogous to your entire post;

It wasn't though. My post wasn't about taking away guns. It was about the original purpose, the intended purpose, the cause and effect they have now, and the populations blind opinion on them.

What I am describing is more along the lines of:

We poison mice populations because the common house mouse is carrying a flea that has deadly bacteria. A few years later, and all the house mice are dead. The only mice alive are the back hooded white spotted horntail, a different mouse that is a beautiful species and no threat to humans.

But we keep killing them. Afraid of the deadly flea on their backs. (But there isn't any.) The house mice not only went extinct, but the fleas jumped from the to cats, because they knew the house mice were dying.



And the people keep buying guns, for freedom and rights.

Points that contradict me are never relevant either. I like how you attempted to attack what I said by using derogatory keywords like "little rant" and you go on to say:

I also referred to my own post as a rant. It's in the rant section. You had a little rant on alcohol, not relevant to the conversation. No reason to backpedal out of it.

This isn't strictly about accidental gun deaths, it's about guns and their intended purpose, the purpose people see them having, and what they really end up being, or what they are to the people that own them.

In relation to the world they live in, and the people that they are.

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
The united States is number 1 in gun ownership in the world and number 28th in gun related murders. If you take out gun murders from Detroit, New Orleans, Washington DC, and Chicago. We fall to the bottom 5 in gun murders. Out of 216 countries in the world.

Sure their are idiots who own guns and probably shouldnt. But even more idiots who drive cars of use power tools or even reproduce more than they should. I dont see you arguing to take those rights away from people.

This source has them at 15th for gun related deaths:



Beating out only a few tin pot dictatorships, banana republics and african massacre zones.

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: boncho

Idiots exist everywhere but should we restict everyone's freedoms & rights because of them? May as take away cars & do away with licenses because they are plenty of idiots on the road.

As already pointed out that's a silly comparison. 1, cars are licensed, registered and people trained to operate them. No such thing exists for guns to that extant and people'd be throwing up a brouhaha if there was.

2, it's not the purpose of where I was going with this. Guns are seen as a last bastion of freedom. My point is that, that was already lost. People's views on guns, and everything else, is just part of the indoctrination that made them lose this war.

It's like watching someone set themselves on fire with gasoline and using a fan to put it out (while stoking the flames).

A big burst of air could have put out the fire, but no one did what was instructed. they all purchased fans instead.

a reply to: boncho Plenty of places with more rights and freedoms that have no guns???

1. name the "plenty of places"

2. Name those rights and freedom they have that the U.S. doesn't.

3. Now name those with more rights and freedoms AND have "no guns".

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: boncho Plenty of places with more rights and freedoms that have no guns???

1. name the "plenty of places"

2. Name those rights and freedom they have that the U.S. doesn't.

3. Now name those with more rights and freedoms AND have "no guns".

Sorry, "no guns" is not accurate. Less guns is more accurate. Or restricted access to guns, or places with gun control measures.

Netherlands, Denmark, Luxembourg, Belgium, New Zealand.. All lower per capita gun ownership, New Zealand nearly bans most types of firearms. All places with very good social welfare, economic stability. (the right of good health and prosperity.)

And of course, most importantly, less per capita jailed population. Less threats on the safety of one's person.

I'd even throw Japan in there even though they are strict as hell in regards to certain things, they are culturally rich in so many aspects.

The founding fathers weren't looking for a country full of automatons that were spoon fed rhetoric about freedom, they were about a diverse population that sought intelligence and built character. Something the countries I listed have.

en.wikipedia.org...

The right to a proper education should be paramount, more so than the 2nd amendment, next only to freedom of speech...

Check out the education index, the US is listed as 25th. New Zealand, Denmark, Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium are all ranked better than the US. I didn't cross check that list until after writing the first part of this response.

en.wikipedia.org...

"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves, (A)nd if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
Thomas Jefferson

"If Virtue & Knowledge are diffused among the People, they will never be enslav'd. This will be their great Security."
Samuel Adams, letter to James Warren, February 12, 1779

"It is an object of vast magnitude that systems of education should be adopted and pursued which may not only diffuse a knowledge of the sciences but may implant in the minds of the American youth the principles of virtue and of liberty and inspire them with just and liberal ideas of government and with an inviolable attachment to their own country."
Noah Webster, On the Education of Youth in America

www.nas.org...

For those of you that think I'm wrong, please tell me if your guns were taken away what would happen tomorrow, the next day, the day after. What would happen in the long run? (be realistic too, lets even hypothesize simply... gun control measures which restricted their sales in half, or put the country at the middle to bottom list of guns per capita worldwide).

Please tell us what would happen that hasn't happened already.

How exactly could the country get any worse and what got you into this state already?

The country suffers from shiny object syndrome. While there are so many other important rights that should be important to the people, everyone focuses on guns like it is the be all and end all that will keep you safe and help you find happiness and liberty.

The problem being is that these things were already lost and guns didn't do anything to stop it.

Shiny object syndrome - "Don't take my guns, guns keep me safe." "Guns are freedom."

While everyone touted this mantra, the following are the actions of the country and it's actual mottos:

"Freedom fries are freedom."
"Bombing other countries is freedom."
"Sending aide to war is freedom."
"Sending troops overseas is freedom."
"Public spending the most money on the planet for weapons and armies for war is freedom."
"Bailing out banks after they stole from us is freedom."
"Getting arrested is freedom."
"The highest per capita arrest and incarceration = freedom."
"Failing schools is freedom."
"Disparity among the classes is freedom."
"Voting for red or voting for blue and no in between is freedom."
"Having the highest per capita costs for healthcare worldwide is freedom."

You really are free though, because of your guns...