When does smoking pot or even stealing cigars justify 2 bullets in the head ?

a reply to: 727Sky

This is an entirely specious narrative - the cop neither knew that he stole cigars, nor that he'd smoked marijuana at some point in the past. He wasn't shot because of these two things, so the question of whether or not this "justifies two bullets in the head" is a logical fallacy.

There remain questions about the actual details of what happened - but most contemporaneous witness accounts seem to coalesce, more or less, around:

- The officer driving past the guys told them to get out of the middle of the street
- Something was said back to the officer that caused him to stop;
- Brown approached the SUV, and as the officer tried to open the door, Brown slammed it shut
- The officer tried to pull Brown into the SUV through the window, or Brown assaulted the officer through the window. Apparently the officer was struck in the face during this, and he alleges that Brown tried to take his weapon. Some reports say this is when the officer first fired
- Brown began to run away; officer gets out and yells "Freeze" - at least one witness claims the officer fired, missing him or possibly grazing his arm
- Brown turns around, and says something, perhaps "What are you gonna do, shoot me?"
- Brown then charges at the officer, officer fires several rounds. At least one witness thought the officer was missing him with his first shots, because Brown kept coming at him - per the autopsy, at least some of the rounds struck him in his arm.
- Then, Brown was struck in the eye, and top of the head, lethal shots, and he fell - in the direction of the SUV, not away.

There are a *lot* of false statements - how he was shot in the back, that he was on his knees, saying "Don't shoot, Don't shoot", etc - the details these "witnesses" offer so completely fly in the face of known facts that they must be discounted.

And there are doubtless some details in the above recounting that are fuzzy or flat out wrong. But the context of "justification" isn't about how many cigars he stole, or what he had for lunch that day, any more than Charles Manson is in prison because he was trespassing on private property. Their only relevance to the shooting is they may speak to Brown's state of mind - *not* justification - as stated, the officer knew neither of these things, and so played zero part in his decision to fire his weapon.

These specious comparisons are simply an appeal to emotionalism, and have nothing to do with the facts of the case.

That was very well said. However, the general audience spent so much time trying to figure all that out, they don't have any energy left to demand the LEOs receive better training so this doesn't continue to occur.

The only way this will stop happening is if we invest in the training of the LEO to handle the community they are working with. Unless the community is expected to have training in how to behave during an LEO experience, this is the only way to implement change and, save peoples lives.

One man died. The other man has to live with this for the rest of his life.

a reply to: squittles

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

No way, really? I didn't know that. Thanks for explaining that to me.

originally posted by: ANNED
The longer this goes on the more i believe the shooting was justifiable.



Yes the cop did not know the suspect had committed robbery and assault and battery.



But the suspect did and likely believed the cop was going to arrest him for the felonies.



The suspect brown likely knew he was looking at state prison time.



This is one thing cops fear. A attack during what they believe is a routine stop by a suspect that knows he has committed a major crime that is going to send him to prison for years.

I think you hit the nail on the head, a succinct synopsis. If you think whats happened in Ferguson the past week was bad, wait till the grand jury fails to bring charges against the officer, deeming it justifiable self-defense. The past few days were a picnic.

When your a policeman and your about to make an arrest and the suspect pushes you into your patrol car and punches you numerous times and attempts to take your weapon it is self defense to respond by shooting the perp. I would have done the same thing in that cops situation. You as a policeman have to assume RIGHTLY that someone that does that is trying to kill you. Period. Whine all you want its that kids fault he was in that situation. Black or white doesnt matter. If he would have cooperated and gone to jail he would still be alive. IT WAS HIS DESCISION TO DO WHAT HE DID. AND THAT'S WHY HES DEAD. That kid was no saint.

If people wouldn't get so caught up in the sensationalized details of the case the would have no reason to be upset.

Its like those posters at the mall. There are people that know all the current events and yet know nothing about their own child's education.

Focus on what's important to you that you can do something about. We can't change what happened. We can try to stop it from happening again.

a reply to: UnBreakable

The corpse had gunpowder burns on his hands and arms meaning he was in the car fighting the officer for his gun, which finally led to the officer hitting him in the top of the head and eye with his weapon. After shooting him in the arms probably trying to keep his gun in his own hands and not give his weapon to the 6'4 guy fighting him on top of him.

originally posted by: texasyeti
The corpse had gunpowder burns on his hands and arms meaning he was in the car fighting the officer for his gun, which finally led to the officer hitting him in the top of the head and eye with his weapon. After shooting him in the arms probably trying to keep his gun in his own hands and not give his weapon to the 6'4 guy fighting him on top of him.

So clearly this officer needs to be better trained. My 15 yr old nephew is 6'5" if height becomes a legal excuse for not having the proper training I will be very afraid for the future of my country.

For the record, you should all look up when the human brain is fully developed. An 18 yr old "man " has not finished developing. His brain was still an adolescent brain.

You may not have known that, the police officer certainly should have. I garentee Judges know this. They have to keep this pertinent information in mind.

a reply to: Ex

I am a real police officer? Not sure what you're wanting to ask.

a reply to: roadgravel

What does it matter? You still go to jail whether we're eating doughnuts or not ...

a reply to: Libertygal

That's why Dr. King said that we should judge a person not on the color of their skin, but on the content of their character!

Seems like there are a whole lotta folk in Ferguson who should remember that right about now.

Well, I don't think that Mr Brown was charging the officer to give him a hug, and from statements that have come out, I have come to the conclusion that it was a justified response by the officer. Now yes, everyone is saddened by the death of this young man, but who in there right mind yells "You're not going to shoot me" to an officer they have just assaulted? That makes about as much sense as sticking your hand in a fire and saying "You're not going to burn me"

a reply to: Iamthatbish

Id like to see what you would do in the cops situation. You would be a dead cop. Cops are highly trained. They have the right to go home alive after each shift. But dirtbags can do whatever they want right and the cop is always wrong. Typical stupidity from someone who doesnt live in reality .

What I would do isn't the issue at hand. I know myself well enough to know that patience is not one of my strenghts. I wouldn't have this particular job to be put in this particular situation. How many LEOs should have made the same decision?

You can empathize with this LEO and understand the stress that prompted his choice. The end result is still a series of poor choices that were made that resulted in a mans death.

These police officers may be trained. By what means will we determine if it was "well"? I know nothing about the regulations or accreditations of whatever academy or school this man came from.

I do however see a reoccurring them that needs to stop. You may nit pic and try to excuse this result as long as you would like to. One man is still dead and, one man has to live with causing this death.

The fact that this is constantly occuring in our country should be concerning for you as well. Instead of taking side and regurgitating "facts" while using negative terms about a recently passed human being, you could be doing something more positive such as perhaps pondering the current state of training in the USs LEO community and trying to prevent more situations like this from occuring.

originally posted by: texasyeti
a reply to: Iamthatbish

Id like to see what you would do in the cops situation. You would be a dead cop. Cops are highly trained. They have the right to go home alive after each shift. But dirtbags can do whatever they want right and the cop is always wrong. Typical stupidity from someone who doesnt live in reality .

So, due process is out of the window and the National Guard is on the streets. Where are the militias defending American freedoms?

So, due process is out of the window and the National Guard is on the streets. Where are the militias defending American freedoms?

LEOs have been allowed to act like an untrained unruly police force for the last 20 years. It started with the gang wars and the War on Drugs, Gangs, and proceeded to (fill in the blank). I don't give a good goddamn what that kid did to this cop, NEVER do cops go into a situation like that solo. In Chicago back in 08' there was a homeless guy that was attacked by the CPD. He was just eating food he scorged from a pantry. Cop took his food and trashed it. Homeless guy got defensive and pulled a fork on the cop. A fork. This turned into 12 cops in SWAT gear surrounding this dude at gunpoint with Remingtons in his face. He was shot 6 times dead in broad daylight, downtown and LUNCH. They claimed they couldn't restrain him. Big scary fork and they got on body armor. All involved got promotions for bravery, and the city got more money to give to the department for law and disorder.

I for one don't look at this as a racial issue. Things have been happening to blacks and unspoken for whites hardcore for a while. Its just that race is a touchy subject due to sins of the country's past and its easy to use as a smokescreen, such as Obammy signing that EO declaring respiratory illnesses can get you "detained". There is a BIGGER agenda going on down there, and it has everything to do with people accepting martial law.

Yes, Michael Brown was an adult, which means that HE was responsible for his actions, and choices in life.

He didn't "shoplift" at the convenience store, he robbed it, and roughed up the owner when confronted.

The surveillance video proves this fact.

Brown's injuries are consistent with rushing toward Officer Darren Wilson, who now has X-rays to show his own injuries from the altercation.

I've heard people call B.S. on the x-rays because they were done in Iowa; Officer Wilson was moved from his home because of the easily predicted backlash to the shooting. Why on earth would he stay in the state of Missouri?

Brown was also under the influence of Marijuana at the time of the altercation, which could indicate that Brown's judgement was clouded.

Let's also remember that Brown was 6'4" tall, and 292lbs; a size that can easily be construed as imposing to most people.

Is it a shame that the kid had to die because he made a stupid choice? Yes, but when exactly do we hold him accountable for that choice?

Where is Michael Brown's culpability in this whole mess?

I fully agree with what would seem to be the consensus that police departments all over the country are becoming far too militarized, and heavy-handed in their dealings with the public, but that's not the only aspect of this case.

When will people begin to hold the Michael Browns of the world responsible for their actions, rather than making excuses and blaming others?

Not everyone that gets shot by a police officer is an innocent victim, and in this case, I don't believe that the facts paint Michael Brown to be innocent at all.

I don't see it as a racial issue either. There are police forces in our country that require you to live within a certain distance of your office. There are police officers that live in homes with signs in their yard that say they are LEO and to go there if you need assistance. These locations don't seem to end up in the news. These locations saw an issue and made a change to correct it.
a reply to: ArchPlayer

originally posted by: texasyeti
The corpse had gunpowder burns on his hands and arms meaning he was in the car fighting the officer for his gun, which finally led to the officer hitting him in the top of the head and eye with his weapon. After shooting him in the arms probably trying to keep his gun in his own hands and not give his weapon to the 6'4 guy fighting him on top of him.

Um, so far, actually, the opposite is true. They have found no gunshot residue on his body, which would call into question the cop's story.