NEWS: U.S. Army Deserter Wants To Stay In Canada

This is from Mr. Hinzman website for anyone that is interested. He is married to Nga Nguyen and has a baby boy.

Excerpts:
www.jeremyhinzman.net...

This questioning culminated in Jeremy submitting an application to the Army requesting conscientious objector status in August of 2002. Apparently, the Army never received the application, so he resubmitted it on Halloween of 2002. Just over a month later his unit was deployed to Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

During the deployment, Jeremy was assigned to non combative duties while his application was being processed or transferred from pile to pile. He is now a stellar dishwasher. Eventually the application surfaced and a twenty five minute hearing was held. Jeremy stated that, should he be attacked, he could not always turn the other cheek. Thus, not meeting the Army's criteria for conscientious objector status, his application was denied.

After returning to normal duties with his unit Jeremy was, ironically enough, assigned to be his unit's armorer. In this position, he was responsible for the maintenance, inventory, and administrative aspects regarding his infantry company's weapon systems.

During the buildup to the Iraqi war, Jeremy made a very unsoldierly vow to himself and his wife by stating that they would refuse to take part in any way in such an endeavor. The rest, as they say, is history. Liam, Nga, and Jeremy are now living in Toronto awaiting a decision
on the refugee claim the submitted in January of 2004.

Originally posted by dubiousone
What, exactly, was the oath that he took? Does anyone have the exact wording of that oath that they can post here?

I, Grady Philpott, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

usmilitary.about.com...

Desertion is considered a �PUNITIVE ARTICLE� in military law
� or in simpler terms, one the worst crimes that a military member can
commit (it�s right up there with murder, rape, spying, and mutiny
among others). Because the US is currently engaged in a state of war,
the Uniform Code of Military Justice (the law that governs all
branches of the US Military) the crime of desertion is presently
punishable by a maximum sentence of death and a minimum sentence as
the a court-martial deems appropriate [Article 85 (3)(c) ].

As you will see below, this UCMJ statute authorized a military
court-martial to impose the death penalty during wartime, but in
during peacetime the punishment is somewhat less severe. When the
country is not at war the maximum penalty the court-martial can impose
is life imprisonment and the minimum penalty is whatever the
court-marital determines is appropriate under the circumstances of
each individual case. Minimum sentences typically include a less than
honorable discharge, reduction in rank, forfeiture of all pay and
allowances and forfeiture of all veterans� status and/or retirement
benefits. In addition, the convicted member of the military will, from
this point forward, be considered a convicted felon with a significant
criminal history for all practical military and civilian purposes.

However, one should not confuse MINIMUM sentences with what the
military generally does. In cases of actual or attempted desertion
where the military member deserted or attempted to desert in order to
avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service, military courts
martial generally impose a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all
pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

[...]

UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE
SUBCHAPTER X. PUNITIVE ARTICLES
885 Article 85 Desertion

(a) Any member of the armed forces who--

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit,
organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom
permanently;

(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to
avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or

(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces
enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another one of the
armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been
regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when
authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.

(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of
his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or
proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom
permanently is guilty of desertion.

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be
punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such
other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion
or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment,
other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

answers.google.com...

www.military-network.com...

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by dubiousone
What, exactly, was the oath that he took? Does anyone have the exact wording of that oath that they can post here?

I, Grady Philpott, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

usmilitary.about.com...

and what part of this war are we upholding the constutution????

Just cause some nutball in the whitehouse has a hard on for oil and to make the carlyle group a ton of money, doesnt mean we as americans have to sit here and send our kids into a stupid war for money scheme.

If this was any of us trying to pull a job off trying to rip someone off in this same fashion we would be/have been strung out to dry the same day, or a few days later...

As I stated earlier Hell I wouldnt care if all of our military went awol... for the facts i stated above that this war is meaningless, and has nothing to do with the oath those people took...

exept the part about adhering to the president, but since he stol;e his way into there also.. he isnt actually a real president.. so that part dont even count..

and if you are wondering about the stolen part, head over to Politics @ ATS forum, I am sure you can find a boat load of proof there...

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 5-12-2004 by ThichHeaded]

While I understand some of your hatred, he also believes like many in the world that the "war" is illegal and immoral. Does serving your country mean that you are willing to do what is considered illegal and immoral?

I am sure that if the US has REALLY been under threat or was invaded he would have givin his life for the country. I do not think breaking the law is part of the conditions of signing up to the army.

He betrayed his Oath, a solemn promise made before God. Have we fallen so far that a Mans word means nothing? That we can go back on that word of Honour when the going gets tough or when we are asked to do something we don't like? Regardless of the right or wrong of this conflict, someone somewhere is taking up the slack for this guy.
You do not have to carry a weapon to serve and fulfil the promise that you made before God, he could have claimed objector status and still served as a useful part of the Army he turned his back on, Medic, driver, administrator, mechanic it wouldn't matter. All play an important part in fulfilling that promise he made. But no, he runs away and hides from his responsibility.
A lot of you will think him courageous for what he has done, but believe me it would have taken more courage to walk into his CO's office and say that he did not want to fight. Believe me he took the easy way out.



[edit on 5-12-2004 by Janus]

Grady, thanks for providing the text of the soldier's oath.

It states "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;" That portion of the oath precedes the part about obeying certain individuals and would seem to take precedence.

The U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, grants Congress the power "To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water." Congress likes to skirt debate and accountability by giving the President authority to do what the Constitution vests only in Congress to do.

Are we at war?? Has Congress declared war against Iraq? Has Congress declared war against "terrorism", Islam, Muslims, Middle Eastern countries in general, with North Korea thrown in for good measure (the old axis of evil thing).

No. Congress passed a "joint resolution" authorizing the use of force against Iraq. There is some debate whether such resolutions are a way of avoiding real discussion and acountability on the part of members of Congress for such decisions. If things go bad, members of Congress can point their little fingers at the President and say it's all his fault.

So, legally, and in reality, we are not "at war" with any country, political organization, ideology, people, or region, or even with with the concept of "terrorism".

Since we are not "at war", this young man cannot legally be considered a deserter "during time of war" and is not subject to the death penalty.

Once toy swear the oath, you are bound to live up to your end of the bargain. The military will do what is in print. What ever happened to living up to your word? That young man needs to stay somewhere else. Was he blind and think airborne infantry never goes to war? Why does this country have a military? To deter war and meet and defeat the enemy. In this day you can serve in the military and not be in combat arms and all you have to is qualify, enlist and graduate the school picked. Jeremy have fun in Canada, we don't need you.

Congress passed a "joint resolution" authorizing the use of force against Iraq.

What is War?

War is Authorization or certification; sanction, as given by a superior. Dictionary

Originally posted by dubiousone
Since we are not "at war", this young man cannot legally be considered a deserter "during time of war" and is not subject to the death penalty.

WRONG

According to Hinzman's web site, Its a war and therefore Hinzman should be treated as a deserter of war.

Hinzman: I object to the Iraqi war because it is an act of aggression with no defensive basis.

Send out the firing squad for this guy. He should be made an example of what not to do. 885 Article 85 Desertion applies to Hinzman. He clearly sees it as a war and so does the definition of WAR

Ok. I've read every response to this thread, and here are my conclusions.

He took an oath. That's a given.

He does not want to go to Iraq. That's a given. CO status or whatever does not matter.

He deserted and went over the border to Canada, and that is wrong.

I can understand without fully accepting his reasons for not wanting to go to Iraq. But the adult way to handle it is to stand up and state your case in front of the governing body that you made the contract with, and accept whatever decision is rendered by the judicial authorities.

He was not man enough to do that. He didn't want to face possible prison time, so he went to Canada and is now begging like a dog at their doorstep for love and understanding.

He can be against the war if he wants. He can refuse to serve there if he wants. What happens next is what separates the men from the boys: does he face the music, or does he desert his fellowmen?

Say what you will. He entered into a contract, and accepted whatever bonuses and benefits came along with it. He did not want to uphold his end of the contract. End of story, IMO.

desertion is desertion no way around it, unless he can prove that Bush, having supervision of deployment the of the army, is a warcriminal and has acted unconstitutional (that shouldn't be to hard in canada courts, doesn't the Oath include defending the country from enemies WITHIN the country)?

Still one would expect that a paratrooper (who are well paid and have kind of higher social status) would be more eager to get involved in waraction than a grunt who enlisted in the army to get out of the trailerpark or the ghetto and have a decent meal/education in the army, not expection upfront that America would get involved in another war....





[edit on 5-12-2004 by Countermeasures]

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Countermeasures]

Originally posted by SourGrapes
He's a freak'n PARATROOPER? Jeez Louis! The Army spent a LOT of money training that guy! What a loser!

___________________________________________________________

The Armed Forces haved trained us all. We have pledged to defend our
country from all enemies CONUS and Overseas. We are and have been
training for the appointed time and place.
We Americans have developed and built the weapons that be used in this countries judgement. We are sitting in our nations submarines, missile silos, fighter aircraft and airport control towers.
Only God knows whenhe will call us into action.
Let the blind continue leading the blind, and let the dumb solder and stupid politician keep leading themselves further into destruction...the clock is ticking.

All the Morality Clauses, Liberal Pseudo-logic and Mind-babble doesn't excuse this guy from being what he is...a C-O-W-A-R-D...clear and simple. I cencernly hope Canada stuffs this guy in a box and ships him back to The States so he may find ultimate sufferage in a military court.

At the very least, this guy deserves Life at Leavenworth. Am I being too easy on the guy? I wish I can tell you what I REALLY think of him and what we should do with his sorry ass, but I'm kind'a rushed for time. LOL

Have fun!

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Toelint]

Originally posted by 00000
___________________________________________________________

The Armed Forces haved trained us all. We have pledged to defend our
country from all enemies CONUS and Overseas. We are and have been
training for the appointed time and place.
We Americans have developed and built the weapons that be used in this countries judgement. We are sitting in our nations submarines, missile silos, fighter aircraft and airport control towers.
Only God knows whenhe will call us into action.
Let the blind continue leading the blind, and let the dumb solder and stupid politician keep leading themselves further into destruction...the clock is ticking.

Nice post. Thank you. So, are you currently serving?

What, should the guy be executed, punished, or humiliated for deserting?

My attention is drawn to the American civil war in which, in some instances, brother had to bear arms against brother.

Then also, in various cases of genocide where soldiers were "just following orders" in the chain-of-command.

Also in the Vietnam war era, how many tried to escape the draft?

Moral of the story: "soldiers have to be efficient survival machines", and if one feels that war is just a bloody mess, then by all means be a medic which allows allows one to be patriotic and yet will not do an act against one's own conscience.

Just my two bits, pls. cease fire.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by aSEEKER]

1. Jeremy Hinzman volunteered for and was assigned to active duty in the U.S. Army.

2. He signed a contract with the U.S. government, swore an oath of true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States, swore to obey the orders of the President and his appointed officers, and abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

3. He has violated his enlistment contract and each and every requirement of the oath he swore to honor. This is the very definition of dishonor.

4. He then deserted his unit, his comrades and his country -- fleeing the United States to avoid prosecution for his crimes.

No matter what sort of bogus rationales, false justifications, mendacious spin or any tool of deceit is used to try to obscure the truth in this story, the facts will not change.

Jeremy Hinzman is a fugitive criminal, and until he has received the appropriate punishment for his crimes there will be no justice done in this case.

My condolences to his relatives, who must live with the shame of being related to him, to anyone bearing the Hinzman family name, which has been stained by his crimes, to his wife, who is married to a fugitive criminal, and most of all to his son Liam, who will have to deal with the shame and disgrace of being the son of an oathbreaker, deserter, felon and international fugitive for the rest of his life.

While I don't know him personally, the actions of Jeremy Hintzman indicate that he is a very selfish person who has no regard for the law, oaths, contracts, honor, the well-being of those who depend upon him or the harm he has done to so many others as a consequence of his crimes.

Those lionizing him do so in offense to these principles.


[edit on 12/5/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by Majic

While I don't know him personally, the actions of Jeremy Hintzman indicate that he is a very selfish person who has no regard for the law, oaths, contracts, honor, the well-being of those who depend upon him or the harm he has done to so many others as a consequence of his crimes.

A soldier must never desert his army and country, no matter how adverse and unbearable the circumstances, because that ought to have been his motivation for enlisting in the first place.

Originally posted by aSEEKER
What, should the guy be executed, punished, or humiliated for deserting?

My attention is drawn to the American civil war in which, in some instances, brother had to bear arms against brother.

Then also, in various cases of genocide where soldiers were "just following orders" in the chain-of-command.

Also in the Vietnam war era, how many tried to escape the draft?

How do any of your thoughts have any bearing on this case?

This is not brother against brother, we are not commiting genocide, and there is no draft.

Hinzman should endure whatever penalties are imposed upon him by the miltary. He brought this upon himself, and made it worse by going to Canada.

Why didn't he wait till he got to Iraq and then ask for asylum from them? This is not a Canadian issue; this is a US./Iraq issue.

Today Hinzman was supposed to appear in front of the Canadian agency responsible to rule on his request. Has anyone heard any updates?

Here's an update:

cnews.canoe.ca...

Hearing set to continue tomorrow (Tuesday).

Originally posted by SourGrapes
Here's an update:

cnews.canoe.ca...

Hearing set to continue tomorrow (Tuesday).

Thanks for bring the update SourGrapes I just read it I found this part particularly interesting, I'm not saying it's true but it makes one wonder.

Excerpt:

His lawyer, Jeffrey House, planned to call former U.S. Marine Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey as a witness to support the claim.
Massey is expected to say how he and other soldiers shot more than 30 unarmed Iraqis, including women and a six-year-old child, at a U.S. military checkpoint, House said.