Putin BANS agricultural imports from sanctioning countries for 1 year

a reply to: Xcathdra

What BS this discussion is turning into.

What is wrong with Medvedev using an iPhone?

Are you going to come out of Cold war mentality or not?

You are living in history. You have no idea of contemporary world.

The basic fact is that Russia can import food as long as it has money. And it has money due to oil and gas export.

If EU does not take the gas, China will.

There are many sources of food for Russia, some of them will sell in barter arrangements as they need Russian equipment.

I bet that even refurbished USSR tanks will sell today as conflict rage and a lot of governments are running scared.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Xcathdra

What BS this discussion is turning into.

What is wrong with Medvedev using an iPhone?

Are you going to come out of Cold war mentality or not?

You are living in history. You have no idea of contemporary world.

The basic fact is that Russia can import food as long as it has money. And it has money due to oil and gas export.

If EU does not take the gas, China will.

There are many sources of food for Russia, some of them will sell in barter arrangements as they need Russian equipment.

I bet that even refurbished USSR tanks will sell today as conflict rage and a lot of governments are running scared.

You have problems following discussions dont you i think you missed the point. Any way its not if they can buy it its if they can afford to. Inflation causes the value of the ruble to drop in fact at an all time low right now. Meaning people need more rubles to buy the same items but unfortunately they dont make more money. For example the ruble has dropped against the yen meaning companies have to spend more rubles to buy Chinese products. As far as bartering your funny countries dont barter what is this the middle ages? You know the chinese are laughing all the way to the bank with the deal Putin gave them. They now get to set the value of the ruble vs the yen in direct trades and Russia cant say a thing about it.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Xcathdra

What BS this discussion is turning into.

What is wrong with Medvedev using an iPhone?

Are you going to come out of Cold war mentality or not?

You are living in history. You have no idea of contemporary world.

The basic fact is that Russia can import food as long as it has money. And it has money due to oil and gas export.

If EU does not take the gas, China will.

There are many sources of food for Russia, some of them will sell in barter arrangements as they need Russian equipment.

I bet that even refurbished USSR tanks will sell today as conflict rage and a lot of governments are running scared.

You have problems following discussions dont you i think you missed the point. Any way its not if they can buy it its if they can afford to. Inflation causes the value of the ruble to drop in fact at an all time low right now. Meaning people need more rubles to buy the same items but unfortunately they dont make more money. For example the ruble has dropped against the yen meaning companies have to spend more rubles to buy Chinese products. As far as bartering your funny countries dont barter what is this the middle ages? You know the chinese are laughing all the way to the bank with the deal Putin gave them. They now get to set the value of the ruble vs the yen in direct trades and Russia cant say a thing about it.

Why are you focusing on exchange rates? Are you sick or a propaganda mouthpiece?

I see you parroting the same lies repeatedly. Who are you trying to influence?

Leave the China-Russia relationship to China and Russia as you have no role in it. You cannot influence that relationship.

Indian rupee went from Rs 50 to 60 suddenly. Indians did not go bankrupt due to it. How did India cope with it. You need to study. Come back after you study.

a reply to: GargIndia

How about you refute what other people state by using facts and citing your sources instead of launching personal attacks?

a reply to: GargIndia

You need to go back and read the discussion and why I made the comment I did. Your response tells me you didn't bother to read any of it. Once again you saw what you wanted and were wrong.

a reply to: GargIndia

The basic fact is that Russia can import food as long as it has money. And it has money due to oil and gas export.

But it is being embargoed by its principal consumer.

If EU does not take the gas, China will.

Yes, at a deep discount. Putin has created a buyer's market for his product.

There are many sources of food for Russia, some of them will sell in barter arrangements as they need Russian equipment.

Perhaps. Putin's self imposed embargo against his principal suppliers has created a seller's market for food. The question is, what does Russia have to barter with? How many Russian consumer goods do you own? If Russia and China decide to barter (rather than exchange in dollars) China would flood the Russian market with cheap consumer goods, driving Russia into the same downward employment cycle as the United States!

I bet that even refurbished USSR tanks will sell today as conflict rage and a lot of governments are running scared.

I see you are finally beginning to understand why Russia "supports" Assad.

a reply to: DJW001

There is a currency that China and Russia can deal in, and this currency is called Gold.

This takes away all the subjectivity from the exchange rates. For example both countries may decide to fix the gas price in terms of gold as per gold price on 1 January 2012. (a hypothetical date).

As Russia and China trade directly using their own currencies, Russia will build yuan reserves and China will build ruble reserves. China can pay for each shipment of gas either in ruble or yuan based on agreed gas price (which can be fixed for 30 years contract).

Russia can use its Yuan reserves to buy goods in China (whatever it needs to import). There is no question of "flooding" the Russian market with Chinese goods. You find a lot of "cheap" Chinese goods in India but these are all imported by Indian merchants, according to paying capacity of Indian public. It is silly to blame the Chinese for cheap products.

As for primary customer of gas - the EU, I think the gas will flow as long as payments are made.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: DJW001

There is a currency that China and Russia can deal in, and this currency is called Gold.

This takes away all the subjectivity from the exchange rates. For example both countries may decide to fix the gas price in terms of gold as per gold price on 1 January 2012. (a hypothetical date).

As Russia and China trade directly using their own currencies, Russia will build yuan reserves and China will build ruble reserves. China can pay for each shipment of gas either in ruble or yuan based on agreed gas price (which can be fixed for 30 years contract).

Russia can use its Yuan reserves to buy goods in China (whatever it needs to import). There is no question of "flooding" the Russian market with Chinese goods. You find a lot of "cheap" Chinese goods in India but these are all imported by Indian merchants, according to paying capacity of Indian public. It is silly to blame the Chinese for cheap products.

As for primary customer of gas - the EU, I think the gas will flow as long as payments are made.

Thats a major simplification you do realize companies will be involved in these transactions. Cant see a Rusian oil company buying food to distribute to the masses. Not to mention China isn't going to trade gold they would be stupid. As the Rubke continues to devalue and Yen increases they will be more than happy to keep it tied to currency markets. China gets cheap gas Rusia isnt going to like the deal they made in thw long run.

a reply to: GargIndia

There is a currency that China and Russia can deal in, and this currency is called Gold.

There are good reasons why the world has gone off the gold standard. For one thing, ease of transfer. You cannot send gold over a wire, you have to ship it in trucks.

This takes away all the subjectivity from the exchange rates. For example both countries may decide to fix the gas price in terms of gold as per gold price on 1 January 2012. (a hypothetical date).

Neither side would agree to a fixed rate. Both countries now recognize the advantage of free market negotiation.

As Russia and China trade directly using their own currencies, Russia will build yuan reserves and China will build ruble reserves. China can pay for each shipment of gas either in ruble or yuan based on agreed gas price (which can be fixed for 30 years contract).

But the ruble is not a stable currency, and it would be suicide for Russia to go back to the gold standard. Rather than build up ruble reserves, it would be better for China to demand gold.

Russia can use its Yuan reserves to buy goods in China (whatever it needs to import). There is no question of "flooding" the Russian market with Chinese goods. You find a lot of "cheap" Chinese goods in India but these are all imported by Indian merchants, according to paying capacity of Indian public. It is silly to blame the Chinese for cheap products.

You don't follow global economic news, do you?

As for primary customer of gas - the EU, I think the gas will flow as long as payments are made.

Again, Russia is not the only country with gas reserves. It is all a matter of building an alternate infrastructure so that North American gas can be delivered.

a reply to: DJW001

You did not understand my post, which I can understand. You are so brainwashed that you cannot comprehend any idea that you have not been told.

In the Russia/China economic agreement, there is no need for an actual transfer of gold. This is a good faith agreement in which Russia accepts China's currency and vice-versa.

This is no different from current setup except US-dollar does not enter the picture.

The issue you highlighted was about exchange rate. I said you peg the price of the commodity to gold on a past date or to an average of gold price over last five years. So you get a fairly stable price for the commodity. Gold is inflation-proof so any fall in the value of Ruble or Yuan does not affect the commodity price.

Your second argument is "market rate". What market rate. The market rate cannot give you stable revenue which is more important to Russia right now. It is better for China also as it gives China stable supplies.

Ultimately large economic arrangements are based on political cooperation. The 400B 30 year agreement signifies political cooperation between Russia and China.

a reply to: DJW001

It is not me. It is you who do not follow current economic news.

Read up. Do some research on swap arrangements between different countries. You will get a better idea.

For example, Japan and India have swap arrangement which runs into a very large figure.

India paid to USSR for arms in Indian Rupees when USSR was alive. This was the primary reason India was able to buy the quantity of arms from USSR that has not been possible since the fall of USSR.

What USSR did with Rupees. It bought commodities like sugar, rice etc.

While Russia is getting US dollars for its exports to India now, is it really as great as it is made out to be.

I do not think so. USD and Euros simply vanish from Russian economy. Russia's industry has not seen any growth as it gets no preferential access to the Indian market.

Russia can easily sell oil and gas to China in Yuan and buy the engineering and consumer goods that it needs from Chinese factories. There is no need of any US dollar, as long as Chinese goods are priced in Yuans.

Russia can do that with China as the Chinese economy is reasonably broad-based and offers a range of products and services that are needed by Russia, and at a competitive price.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: DJW001

It is not me. It is you who do not follow current economic news.

Read up. Do some research on swap arrangements between different countries. You will get a better idea.

For example, Japan and India have swap arrangement which runs into a very large figure.

India paid to USSR for arms in Indian Rupees when USSR was alive. This was the primary reason India was able to buy the quantity of arms from USSR that has not been possible since the fall of USSR.

What USSR did with Rupees. It bought commodities like sugar, rice etc.

I think you need to do some research on what swap arrangements are. Its not bartering for example Japan and India agree to trade currency in there deal the US dollar sets the trade amount. So whatever the value is of the dollar will decide how much of each currency the other will hold in there banks. The money will still be in there banks just some of it will be in foreign currency. This is similar to what China is setting up with Russia problem is Russia will have far less Yen than China will have Rubles since the Yens value is increasing and well the Ruble is at an all time low. Now why do countries do this simple it makes it easier for companies to transfer funds and buy products. If i were in Japan and i need something from India i go to my local bank have them change my currency and dont haver to deal with wire transfers and exchange rates fees on the transfer. You seem to think this is some weird barter system all this tells me is you really dont understand international banking at all.

originally posted by: GargIndia
While Russia is getting US dollars for its exports to India now, is it really as great as it is made out to be.

I do not think so. USD and Euros simply vanish from Russian economy. Russia's industry has not seen any growth as it gets no preferential access to the Indian market.

Russia can easily sell oil and gas to China in Yuan and buy the engineering and consumer goods that it needs from Chinese factories. There is no need of any US dollar, as long as Chinese goods are priced in Yuans.

Russia can do that with China as the Chinese economy is reasonably broad-based and offers a range of products and services that are needed by Russia, and at a competitive price.

Ok what about inflation and devaluation of the Ruble? Then there is the fact China is an assembly nation technology wise there further behind than Russia there is just many items they wont be able to replace but thats ok. Now lets talk real world instead of these fantasies you keep sharing with us.

The russian economy indeed can weather this crises has to make it to 2018 to be exact. Thats when the pipeline will be completed in theory. Though there is a side problem here both China and Russia need the west to help build this pipeline neither has the industry for it. If they create it push this out to maybe 2020. Now as far as the Russian deal with China well if we look we see China as a major winner no surprise there Chinese deals always seem to work out that way. will Russia profit of course they will will it make up for the loss of Europe well depends see China is going into asia and south Amerca for there fuel and its cheaper than Russia since it ties theirs to current prices. Thats fine problem becomes China isnt going to have to pay market price see they did something smart remember that swap deal. China is counting on the Ruble devaluation and in fact mark my words do everything they can to cause it. This was Putins mistake right here!!!!!!

China knows they will be able to control the value of the Ruble they attempted the same thing with the US dollar in the 80s. But difference is Russia wont have any other options the US turned to the European market increasing imports from Europe not to mention the whole buy American campaign people started avoiding Chinese products. In Russia they wont have this luxury at all the amount of control China will have over the russian economy will be substantial.

Late to the discussion, but if Russia limits food then that will be their down fall. People in general do not like not having limited choices and in the end it will have a more negative effect on their Government then on us.

a reply to: GargIndia

For example, Japan and India have swap arrangement which runs into a very large figure.

Like I said, read up:

The facility between the Reserve Bank of India and the Bank of Japan enables both countries to swap Japanese yen or the Indian rupee for US dollars in an unforeseen situation.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

You seem to think that two rival powers will act altruistically for the sole purpose of making your visions come true. Neither country can afford to trust the other. They have traditionally had border disputes with each other, and border disputes are now leading both to war in their respective spheres of influence. There is no possibility of an alliance.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: DJW001

It is not me. It is you who do not follow current economic news.

Read up. Do some research on swap arrangements between different countries. You will get a better idea.

For example, Japan and India have swap arrangement which runs into a very large figure.

India paid to USSR for arms in Indian Rupees when USSR was alive. This was the primary reason India was able to buy the quantity of arms from USSR that has not been possible since the fall of USSR.

What USSR did with Rupees. It bought commodities like sugar, rice etc.

I think you need to do some research on what swap arrangements are. Its not bartering for example Japan and India agree to trade currency in there deal the US dollar sets the trade amount. So whatever the value is of the dollar will decide how much of each currency the other will hold in there banks. The money will still be in there banks just some of it will be in foreign currency. This is similar to what China is setting up with Russia problem is Russia will have far less Yen than China will have Rubles since the Yens value is increasing and well the Ruble is at an all time low. Now why do countries do this simple it makes it easier for companies to transfer funds and buy products. If i were in Japan and i need something from India i go to my local bank have them change my currency and dont haver to deal with wire transfers and exchange rates fees on the transfer. You seem to think this is some weird barter system all this tells me is you really dont understand international banking at all.

India-Japan swap arrangement in denominated in Yen (Japanese currency). The Japanese goods imported under this arrangement are also denominated in Yen. There is no US dollar in this picture.

You may say that INR may depreciate against Yen etc, but that is besides the point.

You are talking of a Russia-China agreement of which you have no knowledge. It is a fact that China is paying top dollar for natural resources all over the world. I advise you find out the details of the deal and then we shall discuss. There is no point in surmises and guesswork.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: GargIndia

The russian economy indeed can weather this crises has to make it to 2018 to be exact. Thats when the pipeline will be completed in theory. Though there is a side problem here both China and Russia need the west to help build this pipeline neither has the industry for it. If they create it push this out to maybe 2020. Now as far as the Russian deal with China well if we look we see China as a major winner no surprise there Chinese deals always seem to work out that way. will Russia profit of course they will will it make up for the loss of Europe well depends see China is going into asia and south Amerca for there fuel and its cheaper than Russia since it ties theirs to current prices. Thats fine problem becomes China isnt going to have to pay market price see they did something smart remember that swap deal. China is counting on the Ruble devaluation and in fact mark my words do everything they can to cause it. This was Putins mistake right here!!!!!!

1. You under-estimate the engineering expertise of Asian nations. The Chinese and Russians together can build the pipelines without any Western help.

2. Calling China as 'major winner' and Russia as 'loser' is silliness. The fact is a deal with China makes far more sense for Russia compared to any deal with EU.

3. Even if a fuel is cheaper at its source, one has to see the landed price which includes transportation costs. The transportation cost for natural gas is quite high. This is the reason Russian gas makes a lot of sense for China.

4. Your entire logic rests on exchange rates. I have refuted your logic several times by clearly stating that a commodity can be linked to an absolute price. This absolute price does not have to be US dollar.

5. Even if the price of commodity is taken in US Dollar, this is only for calculation (arriving at a price). If Russia accepts Yuan (Chinese currency) and China accepts Ruble, then the trade will not need any USD.

6. The important thing here is that mutual acceptance of local currency by the two nations.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: GargIndia

For example, Japan and India have swap arrangement which runs into a very large figure.

Like I said, read up:

The facility between the Reserve Bank of India and the Bank of Japan enables both countries to swap Japanese yen or the Indian rupee for US dollars in an unforeseen situation.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

You seem to think that two rival powers will act altruistically for the sole purpose of making your visions come true. Neither country can afford to trust the other. They have traditionally had border disputes with each other, and border disputes are now leading both to war in their respective spheres of influence. There is no possibility of an alliance.

For the swap, the USD is not in the picture. It is a Yen/Rupee swap.

The standards of journalism are very low in India. You have quoted a large Indian Newspaper but I can assure you even Times of India is not known for the quality of its news.

The realities changes the thinking of people and leaders. Russia will definitely ally with China. There will be increasing cooperation between these two nations.

India wants to keep its independence, so India will not join this alliance. However India will maintain distance from the Western alliance also.

a reply to: GargIndia

India wants to keep its independence, so India will not join this alliance. However India will maintain distance from the Western alliance also.

Thus India will be destroyed. Is that your ultimate fantasy, then?