When did Palestine exist as more than a map notation?

according to scripture;

God, not the british mandate will bring his people back to the land of israel?

Jeremiah

Some may argue that the british mandate proves god's existence?

It was 'local-people' who physically exiled the jews?

It has to be the same local people willing to bring them out of exile?

FWIW

originally posted by: loveguy
God, not the british mandate will bring his people back to the land of israel?

From the scriptural viewpoint, those don't have to be alternatives.
According to Isaiah ch45, God was working through Cyrus to get the Jews released from Babylon.
There is no reason why he should not work through human agents in modern times as well. "God doing something" doesn't have to be through miracle every time; there are more subtle ways of doing things.

If Israel can prove they owned the land with a deed stamped by Heaven then okay. But really they are the authors of their tale.

The world knows who was living there when the Jews were dumped on those shores after WWII. There is the unjust stain of history glaring everyone in the face that is so hard to ignore.

Add in all the oppression of Gaza and the West Bank over the decades and that injustice just glares brighter.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Let's have another look at this...

It was 'local-people' who physically exiled the jews?

It has to be the same local people willing to bring them out of exile?

diaspora

What I've found. . .

I've looked up Sovereign State, Sovereign State, of Palestine. Seems that the UN recognized Palestine as an Observer State in 2012.
Link

Not all members of the Un recognize Palestine as a nation.

a reply to: loveguy
The disapora was a much more complex process than "expelled by local people". Assyrians, Babylonians, slave-traders, Romans all had a part in it. It was the Romans, as your own link makes clear, who forbade the Jews to live in Jerusalem.

Nor is it clear from history how many of the families occupying the land under Muslim rule had themselves migrated into the territory as a result of the Arab conquests.

originally posted by: loveguy
according to scripture;

God, not the british mandate will bring his people back to the land of israel?

according to an important group of archaeologists and biblical scholars formed the view that the actual Kingdom of Judah bore little resemblance to the biblical portrait of a powerful monarchy. These scholars say the kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity.

but more importantly, why are we not talking about the OP?
what is going on?

originally posted by: Exitt

originally posted by: loveguy

according to scripture;



God, not the british mandate will bring his people back to the land of israel?

according to an important group of archaeologists and biblical scholars formed the view that the actual Kingdom of Judah bore little resemblance to the biblical portrait of a powerful monarchy. These scholars say the kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity.

but more importantly, why are we not talking about the OP?

what is going on?

Have you ever noticed the size of Judea on the maps.
It would appear the Israelies have taken over much more than their "homeland". If that is what they really wanted.
In my other reply to this OP I left a link to a map of the "known world" circa 43AD. It shows both Judea and Palestine sitting side by side.
I think this may be a part of the answer asked for in the OP.

I think something important to realize is that the Israelis are the ones who wanted to go to that specific location. Before Israel was politically created there were certain British politicians who tried to establish a place for the Jewish people to go and create their own religious state, but the Jewish people rejected these proposals. They wanted to go to Israel, or that area, only. This is why they had no qualms about displacing those who already occupied the territory at the time the state of Israel was created. The entire argument of who lived there thousands of years ago is pointless, and in my opinion does not come close to the importance of who was living there at the time the state of Israel was created. Their claims of ancestral lands, or any Palestinian claims of ancestral lands, mean nothing. I side more with the Palestinians because they were displaced because the Zionists decided they wanted to live there.

And keep in mind that they were not looking for a place were Jews could safely live, rather they were looking to create a Jewish state. So if I go find a bunch of people whose ancestors lived in a certain location thousands of years ago, and then go and get another nation to back me and declare my own state in this location, and then proceed to displace the people who already live there, do they not have a right to stand up to me and those who came to this location with me?

Or to put it another way, what if the Native Americans started displacing everyone else in the United States, and declared their own nation in the US? And while we are throwing rocks at them and launching homemade rockets, killing very few of them, they decide to bomb the crap out of us and they kill us in large numbers. Who is at fault in that situation? I suppose that since they have a claim to the land then we have no right to be upset or fight back. But those who are dying are not even those who are fighting back. Many of them are just people going about their personal business. Israel should be targeting Hamas, not civilians. Israel has the weapons to ensure precision strikes.

originally posted by: teamcommander

Have you ever noticed the size of Judea on the maps.
It would appear the Israelies have taken over much more than their "homeland". If that is what they really wanted.
In my other reply to this OP I left a link to a map of the "known world" circa 43AD. It shows both Judea and Palestine sitting side by side.
I think this may be a part of the answer asked for in the OP.

I believe you are 100% right.
This thread is is a wolf(thread) in disguise and silly me for thinking otherwise.

I have to admit, I had not just googled "40 A.D. World Map" before making this thread. I was trying to find timelines and civilizations to point to like the Syrians, Phoenicians and others. Finding old period maps brought a surprise. Some of these are big, but they are real maps too. They aren't 4 or 8 block color school maps, so large ones are required to read them. I will just link them.

500 B.C. / Persian Empire - Palestine shown

301 B.C. / Phoenicia shown to Raphia and open Arabia south of that. Phoenicia appears within Syria Superior by hierarchy

40 A.D. / Mixed - Syria shown across area

1708 - 1725 / Mixed - Area broken into many sections. Paleftina and variations of the name shown in parts

1944 / British Mandate - Palastina shown

I make no interpretations at this point. I am just putting what I found on the table to consider and look at.

a reply to: MrCynic

I think one thing of note which should be said about all these maps.

Do you notice that Palestine is always in the same place?
I, personally, find this kind of odd for a land, which, and a people,who, are not suppose to have been there before a few years ago.

You know, "the land with no people for a people with no land" story we have been told.

... and when did the Israel exist as more than a myth?

originally posted by: donhuangenaro
... and when did the Israel exist as more than a myth?

There is a "space" marked out which shows "Judea" on the map from 43AD.
Enlarge the pic to find it.

a reply to: MrCynic
You need to be aware that all of those maps, apart from the last, are late reconstructions rather than genuine contemporary maps. We are short of real maps from Roman times.

Also we need to distinguish between contiunity of name and continuity of people.
Palestine is an old name for the territory, going back to the Philistines. The modern Palestinians have named themselves after the territory, but that doesn't in itself give them continuity with what the name "Palestine" meant in previous centuries.
(Similarly the celtic tribe of Belgae have given their name to modern Belgium. But the fact that the Belgae were also present in Roman Britain doesn't give the modern Belgians any claim on modern Britain)

The sequence since the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians has been;
Babylonian domination.
Persian domination.
After the conquests of Alexander, the land disputed between the state based in Syria and the state based in Egypt.
The rebellion of the Maccabees against Syrian rule gave independence for a time to a Jewish state.
After the conquests of Pompey, Roman domination expressed in various combinations of direct rule and rule through local rulers like the Herods. After the Jewish rebellions, the rule was more direct.
Conquered from the Byzantine Roman Empire by the Arabs. Then ruled at first from a caliphate based in Syria, after which the land was once again in dispute between states based in Syria and Egypt.
Finally the Ottomans came down from Turkey and took charge of the whole area.

originally posted by: teamcommander
Do you notice that Palestine is always in the same place?

This was because Palestine had become the name of a region, like Cyrenaica or Anatolia.
It was no longer related to a specific people.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Palestine is an old name for the territory, going back to the Philistines. The modern Palestinians have named themselves after the territory, but that doesn't in itself give them continuity with what the name "Palestine" meant in previous centuries.

Still seems kind of odd how the name for this piece of ground has been in the same place for all this time.
So far as the people, I would not be surprised if these are not the same people who were living in the area during the crusades. I guess a lot of them died out over time.
However, regardless what you call the ground, there are those who have deeds to their homes which date back to the mid nineteenth century.

originally posted by: teamcommander
Still seems kind of odd how the name for this piece of ground has been in the same place for all this time.

Not really. I live on an island which has been called "Britain" for more than two thousand years, with many different changes of population and rule. Geographical names can be stable.
Some people may think that the Islamic population of the land under Ottoman rule came in with the Arabs.
Others may think they are the converted descendants of the earlier population.
I'm not giving any opinion either way.
All I am saying is, the fact that the modern population have taken up the name "Palestinian", naming themselves after the territory, doesn't have any bearing on the question of continuity. This is a purely modern development.

a reply to: DISRAELI

O K.

All I am saying is, the fact that the modern population have taken up the name "Palestinian", naming themselves after the territory, doesn't have any bearing on the question of continuity. This is a purely modern development.

Give me the "FACTS" which will back up you point. Just exactly when did the current residents of this area begin calling themselves "Palestinian"? I am sure myself, but sense you said it was a fact, I know you are prepared to relay these facts to us so we can be as enlightened as possible.
I am not arguing this to not be the case.
I just like to be sure to be able to varify all the facts which are offered in a discussion.

Also, how far back in time does the term "modern" cover? I have heard this expression a lot so I thought this would be a good time to get a deffinition for it.

Nice to see some truth here for a change...

The Palestinian 'homeland' is nothing more than a mythical fabrication.

Indeed, there is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history. There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day “Palestinians” are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. That is the historical truth. They were Jordanians (another recent British invention, as there has never been any people known as “Jordanians”), and after the Six-Day War in which Israel utterly defeated the coalition of nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent a kind of anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians – something they did not know the day before.

Origin of the Name Palestine

After the destruction of the second Temple by the Roman Empire, the name of the land was changed to Palestine, to erase the name of the Jewish entities that had existed there- Judea and the Israel- and the name of Jerusalem was changed as well- to Capitonlina. this is how the Romans controlled the places they conquered- remove the original settlers and erase the name of the land from memory.

www.palestinefacts.org...