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What small shreds? Please don't mention quantum dynamics, as (1) this point is used in about every esoteric doc I have seen the last years and this simply is some kind of fashion right now and (2) quantum dynamics are the very, very hard core of materialism. There is nothing at psychic powers or such which can be attributed to QD.
because the small shreds of evidence we do have about the underlying fabric of reality seem to lead away from reductive materialism.
originally posted by: ManFromEurope
Sorry, but at the exact point where you could show how materialism isn't everything that is, you kind of dodge it.
Your first point: Mind is not material? Okay. This seems to me quite open for debate, as it is a very objective thing, everyone experiences his/her mind in a different way to others. I guess. Philosophers to the front, please.
Your second point, and I would like to quoteWhat small shreds? Please don't mention quantum dynamics, as (1) this point is used in about every esoteric doc I have seen the last years and this simply is some kind of fashion right now and (2) quantum dynamics are the very, very hard core of materialism. There is nothing at psychic powers or such which can be attributed to QD.
because the small shreds of evidence we do have about the underlying fabric of reality seem to lead away from reductive materialism.
Therefore, this seems not like a fact-based critique of materialism, but an elaborate kind-of rant. Against scientific organizations, critique against "free-thinkers" coming from scientists and so on. It lacks substance for me.
originally posted by: stirling
Science these days seems like democracy to me....
everbody gives it lip service, but it doesn't function as advertised..........
Certain basic parameters have been undermined.....
originally posted by: the2ofusr1
I think it has become a political tool .It probably always was to a certain degree but more so lately .We seem to have two ways of looking at things but the hard truth is somewhere in between Science and Religion . a reply to: stirling
originally posted by: Antigod
originally posted by: stirling
Science these days seems like democracy to me....
everbody gives it lip service, but it doesn't function as advertised..........
Certain basic parameters have been undermined.....
I'm a scientist, I do research.
You don't know what you are talking about. Scientists constantly check other scientists work, and there are many well documented instances of scientific frauds being routed by.. science!
The problem is, make something up/lie and you will eventually get caught. Stephen J Gould accused one scientist from the 19th century of fudging data, but when they went back and remeasured it turned out Gould had made it all up. That's science in a nutshell. Someone with a vested interest can claim they've discovered something all they want, but science will always, eventually, uncover the fraud through its constant verification processes. It's why most scientists don't fudge data without massive cash incentives. You WILL eventually get caught and bang! There goes your reputation and your job, and you are a pariah.
However, large drugs companies hiding research they don't want to see is so common it's unremarkable.
originally posted by: Antigod
originally posted by: ManFromEurope
Sorry, but at the exact point where you could show how materialism isn't everything that is, you kind of dodge it.
Your first point: Mind is not material? Okay. This seems to me quite open for debate, as it is a very objective thing, everyone experiences his/her mind in a different way to others. I guess. Philosophers to the front, please.
Your second point, and I would like to quoteWhat small shreds? Please don't mention quantum dynamics, as (1) this point is used in about every esoteric doc I have seen the last years and this simply is some kind of fashion right now and (2) quantum dynamics are the very, very hard core of materialism. There is nothing at psychic powers or such which can be attributed to QD.
because the small shreds of evidence we do have about the underlying fabric of reality seem to lead away from reductive materialism.
Therefore, this seems not like a fact-based critique of materialism, but an elaborate kind-of rant. Against scientific organizations, critique against "free-thinkers" coming from scientists and so on. It lacks substance for me.
Actually the observer does affect the outcome, so this shows the mind directly interacting with the universe. The universe is not the nuts and bolts job Newtonian physics assumes.
I have to say the OP is your standard 'how dare science study everything they can and then say they can't find any proof of something someone just knew was true when they was high'. Better written than most, but still your standard rant of someone faith based against the fact based world of science.
OP, if, despite searching for it, science can't find evidence of a thing it's not okay to have a hissy fit at scientists for not believing in, and pointing out the evidence against:
God (whichever)
Creationism
Fairies
Angels
Ghosts
Telepathy
Aliens building pyramids
That cannibis cures all cancers
That all autism is caused by vaccines
That the CIA is behind all Islamic terrorism
Etc etc.
originally posted by: ManFromEurope
What small shreds? Please don't mention quantum dynamics, as (1) this point is used in about every esoteric doc I have seen the last years and this simply is some kind of fashion right now and (2) quantum dynamics are the very, very hard core of materialism. There is nothing at psychic powers or such which can be attributed to QD.
originally posted by: Antigod
God (whichever)
Creationism
Fairies
Angels
Ghosts
Telepathy
Aliens building pyramids
That cannibis cures all cancers
That all autism is caused by vaccines
That the CIA is behind all Islamic terrorism
Etc etc.
First, it is extraordinary because it is counter-intuitive. We may claim publicly to be materialists or idealists (the opposite philosophical pole to materialism, idealism claims that mind, not matter, is the fundamental building block of reality) but in the privacy of our own thoughts, we are all dualists. That is, we are all aware of ourselves from day one as beings with a physical existence and a mental existence. It is utterly bizarre to make the claim that we have no mind. It is almost as bizarre to make the claim, unsupported by any strong evidence, that our mind emerges from matter spontaneously, and occupies a less fundamental position in the grand scheme of things than the fleshy vehicles through which we interact with the material world.
Second, it is extraordinary because the small shreds of evidence we do have about the underlying fabric of reality seem to lead away from reductive materialism. The materialist theory that underpins modern science and New Atheism is a clanking old Newtonian machine that presents the universe as a well-ordered construct with no maker – the pocket watch of the teleological argument (the classical argument for the existence of God that equates the world to an ordered mechanism and postulates that it, like a mechanism, has a designer) without a watchmaker. Today, high-end physics is a world of abstruse and irrational speculation about the ultimate nature of existence that deals with quantum uncertainty and only speaks the language of complex mathematics. To anyone who is interested in the refutation of New Atheist thought and reductive materialism, I strongly recommend The Devil’s Delusion by David Berlinski, and to any that sometimes feel as though the scientific establishment overstate their authority on matters all, I recommend The Science Delusion by Rupert Sheldrake with equal vigour. Things are not as simple, cut and dried, and conclusive as they are being presented to the layman.