Not Another Gaza Thread. Just a Brief Self-Examination. Nothing Profound.

a reply to: Expat888

Dear Expat888,

You remind me a little of Father Damien and his leper colonies. Called to treat the worst imaginable illnesses, and bring comfort to those who were beyond human treatment.

I believe that the incredibly vast majority of the world prefers peace. You have the extra burden, or blessing, of having pounded into you WHY we should seek peace.

I don't think we'll get a true and lasting peace in the world. All men have flaws, and some are so severe that those men believe war and conquest is the best solution, while they ignore other possible solutions.

You have gone beyond what an ordinarily decent man would do. Your desire to do good and to be good is powerful. It is a blessing and, for some men, a curse.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952
The real story in all of these is innocent (non combatants) are being murdered, there is no way around this.
This crime happened more than once, more than twice.
But then again those infants are just terrorists in training, right?

a reply to: daaskapital

Dear daaskapital,

Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful reply. I wonder if I should be flattered by:

I have seen you support Israel on these boards though. Effectively, you have argued for Israel, even if only subtly.

No, I think I won't.

Your post gives me a chance to clarify some things I was trying to say.

Let's say, as the UN representatives did, that Israel and Palestine have both committed war crimes, and have been through this recent period. (What's it been, three weeks?)

For that matter, assume any bad behavior on Israel's side you want. There are still at least two big questions remaining. Why did this occur? How do we reasonably stop it?

It does little good to say that Israel is run by psychopathic, genocidal, murderers. For one, it's pretty clearly not true, and for two, that's no way to open a conversation with someone who supports Israel.

You don't have to support Hamas to support Palestine.

You're absolutely right. The question arises, how do we support Palestine, and stop Hamas at the same time.

This happens on both sides. I won't name names, but i myself, have had to correct some right wing members who post blatant pro-Israel information, from pro-Israeli sources.....It is not a problem restricted to those on the Palestinian side of the fence.

Good for you. We need that. Truthful information is essential. I'm pretty sure that you don't reject it because it is pro-Israel information from pro-Israel sources.

I know you will reply in saying that you are claiming the above of the general ATS population, but you aren't. So far, this thread has focused on the Palestinian side making the Israeli side look bad.

You're absolutely right. That's because It seemed to me that it happens more frequently with pro-Palestinian threads than pro-Israeli threads.

The thing is, a lot of the stuff posted are not lies. I know for a fact that every thread of mine, had been authored to the exact standards and information, as known at the time. Some perspectives may oppose yours, but it doesn't mean they are lies.

Again, very good, thank you. The one that came to mind immediately was the cellphone video of the Palestinian hit three times by an IDF sniper. That was bogus, first to last.

I'm glad you think that that the reasonable discussions have never left. My memory is short and I don't recall seeing that kind of discussion last for very long. But I hope we have more reasonable discussions. I don't see it happening, but "Hope springs eternal ...."

And to be absolutely honest, I don't see the pro-(Palestinian? Hamas?) group becoming more respectful or interested in finding truth and solutions.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: g146541

Dear g146541,

You've missed the point of the OP. I don't want this derailed.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: daaskapital

Your post gives me a chance to clarify some things I was trying to say.

Let's say, as the UN representatives did, that Israel and Palestine have both committed war crimes, and have been through this recent period. (What's it been, three weeks?)

For that matter, assume any bad behavior on Israel's side you want. There are still at least two big questions remaining. Why did this occur? How do we reasonably stop it?

It's been 3 and a half weeks now.

Why have war crimes been committed by both sides?

The people of Gaza have been forced by Israel, to live behind walls, in a dense area. This obviously leads to significant problems, especially when you consider the wars of which Gaza and israel are currently experiencing. Since Gaza is a densely populated area, Hamas, in intending to wage war, must fire rockets from city streets and houses. Contrary, since Gaza is so dense, Israel is forced to bomb, and destroy numerous buildings in the attack of one, which could possibly, and has, lead to civilian casualties.

What can be done?

Well, Hamas can't really do much more than what they already are doing. They can't fire rockets from unpopulated areas, as Gaza hosts a population of 1.8 million people.

As for Israel, they can change military tactics. Perhaps they could switch to special forces raids, rather than the bombings of buildings. It would lead to less civilian deaths, although at the potential cost of Israeli life.

Alternatively, both sides could be encouraged to pursue peace, but you know as well as i do, that peace cannot be settled with the current leaders of both states.

You're absolutely right. The question arises, how do we support Palestine, and stop Hamas at the same time.

Hamas claims that they no longer adhere to their charter. It could perhaps, be possible, to encourage them to lay down arms against Israel. This would only be done, i'd imagine, with some Israeli compromise, perhaps on the topic of statehood.

That said, if Hamas refuses to alter their charter, or continues in their activities, it may be wise to undermine Hamas' power, while at the same time, elevating the prominence of Fatah in Gaza. If Hamas is removed too quickly, it could create a power vacuum, resulting in unintended, and perhaps, worse consequences. Israel would have to ensure Fatah's standing in Gaza, in order to have any ultimate success. This is especially considering the fact that Fatah (PLO) holds power in the West Bank.

Good for you. We need that. Truthful information is essential. I'm pretty sure that you don't reject it because it is pro-Israel information from pro-Israel sources.

Indeed, truth is key. I only reject information of which is false, or misrepresented.

I don't often care from which side information comes, so long as it can be corroborated by independent sources.

You're absolutely right. That's because It seemed to me that it happens more frequently with pro-Palestinian threads than pro-Israeli threads.

You are correct. It does happen on both sides though.

I'm glad you think that that the reasonable discussions have never left. My memory is short and I don't recall seeing that kind of discussion last for very long. But I hope we have more reasonable discussions. I don't see it happening, but "Hope springs eternal ...."

I just think that reasonable discussion is occasionally overshadowed by immature or rash debates. You are a member who continued to engage in reasonable discourse, and should be commended for it.

And to be absolutely honest, I don't see the pro-(Palestinian? Hamas?) group becoming more respectful or interested in finding truth and solutions.

I don't see much of it from either side, although i can think of some members who are totally open to truth and solutions. It's just a matter of encouraging it in a greater number of people.

With respect,
Charles1952

Thanks for the reply,

Daas.

The arguing in the US political threads bothers me a whole lot more than in the Gaza threads. I know and understand that different people express themselves in whatever way they do, some with more passion and agendas than others but through all the arguing and debate there is some real urgency that this killing madness must be stopped somehow, and people have to be able to express that in whatever way they can.

Tonight I wrote letters to my government representative as well as my prime minister to ask them for an urgent review of their foreign policy in view of the present situation that is killing far too many innocents. Nothing I say on this site could bring about effective change as much as the government of a country can in this situation. France and the UN have spoken out against what is going on and I sincerely hope my kowtowing government will at the very least stop licking Israeli boots and speak to them with a candor that might produce more results in the long run. I am neither pro-Palestinian nor pro-Israeli. My interest lies in fairness for the innocents and so far they are losing.

Speaking as someone who does not know, or fully understand all the issues between Israel and the Palestinians, I could honestly care less which side prevails. If I was in charge I'd take the land away from both of them until they learned to play nice. My second option would be to let them fight it out.

a reply to: charles1952
I did not miss the point, the only real issue here is the murder of innocents.
And one side has the overwhelming monopoly.
Even your silver tongue cannot spin away from this truth.
With respect and all.

My least favorite words are: "It's wrong, BUT...." On this or any topic.

I lose respect for the poster's point right there.

It's a topic that elicits strong emotions from both sides.

As somebody who tries to maintain a balanced view on the conflict, I have found that many posters whom are anti-Israel have very closed-minded thinking and intrinsically rigid views, compared to those with balanced or pro-Israel views. Then again, those that are pro-Israel tend to be more receptive to the MSM and anti-Islam propaganda in general.

a reply to: daaskapital

Dear daaskapital,

Wonderful post, thank you. This is what I was hoping for. Instead of people on both sides staring at each other in an attempt to find fault with the other, we can have people standing side by side looking for solutions to this terrible situation.

I'm particularly impressed by your work here:

Hamas claims that they no longer adhere to their charter. It could perhaps, be possible, to encourage them to lay down arms against Israel. This would only be done, i'd imagine, with some Israeli compromise, perhaps on the topic of statehood.

That said, if Hamas refuses to alter their charter, or continues in their activities, it may be wise to undermine Hamas' power, while at the same time, elevating the prominence of Fatah in Gaza. If Hamas is removed too quickly, it could create a power vacuum, resulting in unintended, and perhaps, worse consequences. Israel would have to ensure Fatah's standing in Gaza, in order to have any ultimate success. This is especially considering the fact that Fatah (PLO) holds power in the West Bank.

This provides the best hope of any solution I've seen so far.

Israel starts feeding goodies to the West Bank in a form that can't be used by Hamas in Gaza. Mayors in Israel and the West Bank have happy photo shoots where aid and peace develop. Smiley faces start being seen in the West Bank. In Gaza, on the other hand, the supply tunnels to Egypt get closed, electricity becomes tough to obtain, people who ask to leave Gaza are sent under UN control to new homes. Of course, before they're sent away, they describe what life was like under Hamas to the press of the world.

Eventually, Hamas is de-legitimatized (or at least it's rocket tactics are) and replaced by something more reasonable.

I'm not sure that either the UN or the US State Department has the skill to accomplish that. But, it's a lot better than blowing everything up.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: aboutface

Dear aboutface,

An interesting post. It's one which made me scratch my head a couple of times.

through all the arguing and debate there is some real urgency that this killing madness must be stopped somehow, and people have to be able to express that in whatever way they can.

You mention your concern with American political threads. If you comment that the US has to return to it's Constitutional roots somehow, I believe most would say the comment is incomplete and inadequate. They might ask if you can show that we should, or that there is a practical way to do it. But the mere statement that something has to occur says more about one's heart than about one's mind.

I think that's true of this subject as well.

Tonight I wrote letters to my government representative as well as my prime minister to ask them for an urgent review of their foreign policy in view of the present situation that is killing far too many innocents. Nothing I say on this site could bring about effective change as much as the government of a country can in this situation.

You're right that a government is more powerful than ATS. On the other hand, ATS is much more likely to read what you've said, consider it and respond to it. You're letter might change a mind or start a discussion here, it certainly won't at the level of your government.

France and the UN have spoken out against what is going on and I sincerely hope my kowtowing government will at the very least stop licking Israeli boots and speak to them with a candor that might produce more results in the long run. I am neither pro-Palestinian nor pro-Israeli.

I do hope you see how your words contradict themselves here. The only way the first sentence makes sense is if you really are pro-Palestinian.

My interest lies in fairness for the innocents and so far they are losing.

It's difficult to talk about this because in this conflict, as in American political discussions, "fairness" is a meaningless concept. Was it "unfair" that more German and Japanese civilians died than did American or British civilians in WW II? When did it become important that the same number of civilians die on each side?

But a discussion can be had and that is what I'm looking for here.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Dear WakeUpBeer,

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best. I think people should show that the simple answers can't work before they try the fancy ones.

One thing I've never understood is the phrase "War doesn't settle anything." That's not what History tells me.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: g146541

Dear g146541,

"Silver tongue?" Moi? Thank you very much, I'm flattered. Whatever anyone might say about your abilities in logical discourse, I will always support your taste in writing styles.

But, sadly, you miss the point again. As much as you want the issue to be about blaming one side or the other, that's not what I'm trying to do here. My goal, as I tried to state in the OP, was to get beyond the "I'm innocent, you're a monster. No, I'm innocent and you're a monster," attitude found somewhere in every Gaza thread.

You may want to check some of the posts here to see which way we're going in this particular thread.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: FlyersFan

Dear FlyersFan,

That 72 hour cease fire on ATS is fine, but I was hoping for something permanent. Well, I'll take anything I can get.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Sorry to not have been clearer in my post, Charles, but I will accept responsibility for your misunderstanding my position. You seemed to have been saying that the Gaza posts upset you, whereas I was saying the opposite. I don't get involved in American political threads because of the arguing and division in them that seems to lead nowhere, full stop.

In the Gaza threads however, a lot of wrongdoing is being exposed on both sides, but neither of the combatant sides is exercising mercy towards the children and innocents when they clearly should and must where possible. However Hamas is being callous and evil and Israel is stooping to their level in handling things. I only see sheer callousness and vindictiveness coming from both Hamas and Israel.

We in Canada were absolutely stunned when Harper took a very strong pro-Israeli stance because we prided ourselves on being neutral with a long history of peace keeping, such as over 20 years in Cyprus and several in the Congo. Be that as it may though, his recent statement irked me no end because he seems blind to the carnage that is going on. I do happen to think that IDF teams could go in and take out Hamas posts rather than bomb UN family shelters and schools and homes in the radical and callous way they have been doing, especially after urging people through phone calls and leaflets to seek shelter outside their residences. The crack Israeli army was creative in days gone by. To use the term 'the right to defend ourselves' is inappropriate when one sees the way Israel is doing it in this outbreak and the last.

As for writing to my government rep, he does pride himself on voting according to the directives given by his constituents. I am not pro Palestinian nor anti-Israel, but I do want him to speak frankly with Harper and not have Israel think it's ok to kill little children and their families on purpose, because no matter how they try to justify it, some of us know better. It is disgusting to watch.