Official: Police chokehold caused NYC man's death

a reply to: areyouserious2010

agreed...measured reactions, discretion, and gradual escalation as needed...

i wasn't there, neither were you, and i must admit, i've not read EVERY article related to this incident....but yeah, tell him to get lost, if that doesn't work, you tell him he's going to get arrested if he doesn't comply, if the person is dumb enough to argue with him, then he gets arrested....and must be subdued....now, if he used a taser, that might have killed him too...i mean, it's hard to say what options would yield what outcome, but it seems as if he immediately escalated to the most physical, and least restrained option available to him, and now the guy is dead...

a reply to: Daedalus

Im sure it wasnt the Officers intention to kill the man.

Likewise, Im sure the vicitim didnt think breaking the law would result in his death.

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: Collateral

and the autopsy report says the hold killed him...

so what was that about taking the autopsy report over ATS assumptions, again?

was killed by neck compressions from the chokehold and "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," medical examiner's spokeswoman Julie Bolcer said.

Asthma, heart disease and obesity were contributing factors in the death of the 43-year-old Garner, a 6-foot-3, 350-pound father of six, she said.

Sound like there were a lot more factors contributing to his death than just a choke hold.

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: areyouserious2010

agreed...measured reactions, discretion, and gradual escalation as needed...

i wasn't there, neither were you, and i must admit, i've not read EVERY article related to this incident....but yeah, tell him to get lost, if that doesn't work, you tell him he's going to get arrested if he doesn't comply, if the person is dumb enough to argue with him, then he gets arrested....and must be subdued....now, if he used a taser, that might have killed him too...i mean, it's hard to say what options would yield what outcome, but it seems as if he immediately escalated to the most physical, and least restrained option available to him, and now the guy is dead...

Exactly right. Its a bit rich, people on a forum saying what the Officer should of done after the fact.

The big mistake was putting him in a chokehold as the NYPD forbids it. However, this was not the only factor contributing to the mans death and like I said before; I doubt he was trying to kill him.

a reply to: Daedalus

his "crime" wasn't so severe that the cop needed to go to all that trouble....tell him to stop what he's doing, and move on.

And if he doesn't stop? Unfortunately, there are people out there who don't allow it to be that simple. I would say the fact that he has been arrested before for the same charge indicates that this guy does not allow it to be that simple.

not immediately move in for an arrest....policing isn't about arresting as many people as possible...

The officers did attempt to talk to him before attempting to arrest him. The officers did attempt to arrest him as peacefully as possible before he resisted.

the problem with cops today is that they treat their job like a game...let's see who can get the high score for arrests...

This is a blanket statement. There is no argument that some cops act this way but not all or even most.

he escalated when he didn't need to, he put the man in a hold he obviously wasn't properly trained to use, and now that man is dead....and for what? some loosies....

It doesn't really matter what law the officers were trying to enforce.

The situation escalated when the guy became argumentative and completely uncooperative. The situation escalated again when the officers moved in to arrest the guy and he began to physically resist. Both escalations were caused by the guy who died.

This entire argument started because I pointed out the fact that there was a difference in the two articles. Meaning the news release may have been open to interpretation. Without knowing all the facts, which will be uncovered in the official investigation, it would be a rush to judgement to say the officer should be charged with MURDER and is GUILTY.

a reply to: Collateral

yes, they were contributing factors...NOT the cause of his death...

i point you again to this

was killed by neck compressions from the chokehold and "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,"

the hold killed him. had the hold not been applied, he would not be dead.

it doesn't get any simpler than this. why do you refuse to accept this?

a reply to: LrdRedhawk

The eager billy bad@ss that used the illegal and outlawed methodology to put his arms and lock around the man's neck was the contributing factor, which honestly, if confronted one on one with this guy they wouldn't have even barked up that tree, he also did have asthma which we know that asthmatics can be susceptible to an attack from almost anything, even stress may have caused it but at any length you should not block the air flow, lets not get bent out of shape on this man that broke a fight up, and then suddenly bring up the cigarettes when he clearly protested that this time he has no cigarettes but feels harassed....I dunno, once the chief came out and said the choke hold was illegal that sealed it....

Someone was going to burn, whether they get time or not, that remains to be seen, probably not, while another man is dead, it has nothing to do with all of the hearsay, about his physical condition or his prior selling single cigarettes, what a price to have to pay, he is dead now, there are murderers who still live, walk amongst us daily and drug dealers that have sold harmful substances that people have died in connection with their use or trafficking...here is a man who was selling single cigarettes and supporting his family being made to look like he was robbing stores and killing.

One more thing, I once had a test of my heart, they told me to sniff and it was amazing to see a little valve in there open and close realtime watching it on the monitor, you respiratory system is so closely connected to the heart, I can imagine if you have an airflow issue, this could possible affect that heart if there is an underlying issue as well... the officers clearly do not care, just like I saw this video of some cops arresting a woman and hitting her in the side and kidney area, not even caring, suppose she was pregnant...some of you have probably seen that video.

a reply to: Daedalus

agreed...measured reactions, discretion, and gradual escalation as needed...

i wasn't there, neither were you, and i must admit, i've not read EVERY article related to this incident....but yeah, tell him to get lost, if that doesn't work, you tell him he's going to get arrested if he doesn't comply, if the person is dumb enough to argue with him, then he gets arrested....and must be subdued.

Absolutely.

now, if he used a taser, that might have killed him too...i mean, it's hard to say what options would yield what outcome

True.

but it seems as if he immediately escalated to the most physical, and least restrained option available to him, and now the guy is dead...

Are you taking into consideration the fact that the guy they were attempting to arrest was 6-03 and 350lbs? If given the chance, could the guy have put up a bigger fight?

I can see why they used a sudden, decisive use of force to subdue the guy quickly.

Grabbing the guy around the neck during a fight, to take him down, is not tantamount to a choke hold or strangulation.

But the guy died.

I would be interested to see what the actual Medical Examiners official report says. If it says the guy died from strangulation then the officers absolutely messed up and should be held accountable.

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: Collateral

yes, they were contributing factors...NOT the cause of his death...

i point you again to this

was killed by neck compressions from the chokehold and "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,"

the hold killed him. had the hold not been applied, he would not be dead.

it doesn't get any simpler than this. why do you refuse to accept this?

Because you are cherry picking parts of the report to suit your argument.

was killed by neck compressions from the chokehold and "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," medical examiner's spokeswoman Julie Bolcer said.

Asthma, heart disease and obesity were contributing factors in the death of the 43-year-old Garner, a 6-foot-3, 350-pound father of six, she said.

Nowhere does it say that the chokehold was the sole cause of death.

Compression of his chest is putting a lot of pressure on the lungs. Take into account the mans medical history and it is not hard to see that there was a lot more involved in his death than "he choked him to death."

I didnt read anywhere in that article where the man became belligerent, however if he did, I would be interested to know how you think police should enforce the law. Obviously, the choke hold was excessive, but it was not the sole factor in his death as stated in the report. Compression of the chest in the prone position (standard polic tactics) also played a major role.

Are you suggesting that if the man became belligerent, the police should of just walked away because it was only a minor crime?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isnt it?

a reply to: areyouserious2010

The use of force was illegal that hold is not approved by NYPD, but mr. wrestler cop, thought it was ok and did you see how he was acting like a big man at the end, while that man lay dying on the sidewalk and talking smack along with some of the other officers...pitiful and shameful just as much a gang as crips or bloods or any other, cops nowadays have just as many tatoos and gang looking designs as gangsters and hard time convicts, I stay clear of them.

a reply to: areyouserious2010

well, i mean the thing above says he died from "neck compressions", and the compression of his chest....so, i mean, that sounds pretty clear...his ability to take in air was restricted/compromised....that'll do-in anyone...

a reply to: areyouserious2010

Ok, I understand you are quoting from the article but after reading said article I can't see where it says a choke hold killed the guy.

Said choke hold is an illegal procedure for police to use unless there is mortal danger. That being the case and being that the MAJOR contributor to his death was the chokehold. It's felony murder.

a reply to: phinubian

he also did have asthma which we know that asthmatics can be susceptible to an attack from almost anything, even stress may have caused it

And how, exactly, would the officers had known he had asthma?

One more thing, I once had a test of my heart, they told me to sniff and it was amazing to see a little valve in there open and close realtime watching it on the monitor, you respiratory system is so closely connected to the heart, I can imagine if you have an airflow issue, this could possible affect that heart if there is an underlying issue as well... the officers clearly do not care, just like I saw this video of some cops arresting a woman and hitting her in the side and kidney area, not even caring, suppose she was pregnant...some of you have probably seen that video.

Again, how, exactly, are police supposed to know what a person's entire medical history and diagnosis is when attempting to arrest them for committing a crime?

Common sense would dictate that if the police are attempting to arrest you, and you know you have an underlying health issue, don't resist the arrest. In fact, don't resist an arrest at all. It is much safer to wait for your day in court and argue it there.

a reply to: Collateral

-takes a breath-

SNIP

i'm not cherry picking anything...i lifted the pertinent section of the quote, verbatim, from your post....i didn't omit anything important to the point i was making...and i acknowledged that there were other contributing factors....then i pointed out that those contributing factors were not found to be THE cause of death...

was killed by neck compressions from the chokehold and "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,"

sounds to me like his inability to get air killed him...how 'bout that....

jesus christ, it's like saying that a person died in a car crash, as a result of decapitation..but the squirrel running around in his car is what actually killed him...

contributing factors are just that...contributing factors...they are NOT THE cause of death...they contribute...

a reply to: Collateral

The president of the powerful Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, Patrick Lynch, expressed his sympathies to Garner's family but noted Garner "was a man with serious health problems."

"We believe, however, that if he had not resisted the lawful order of the police officers placing him under arrest, this tragedy would not have occurred," he said.

originally posted by: areyouserious2010
And how, exactly, would the officers had known he had asthma?

they have NO way of knowing....but it shouldn't matter. a functional brain would tell most people to NOT put people in choke holds...especially if they're not trained how to do it properly, and it's a practice that's banned by your department...

a reply to: Daedalus

How very mature of you. I am really greatful that you didnt bring down your wrath of name calling upon me.

was killed by neck compressions from the chokehold and "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," medical examiner's spokeswoman Julie Bolcer said.

Asthma, heart disease and obesity were contributing factors in the death of the 43-year-old Garner, a 6-foot-3, 350-pound father of six, she said.

So perhaps you can explain how a choke hold compresses your chest? Also show me how it circumvents medical history?

You've yet to respond to the second half of my post also.

Like I said, hindisght is a wonderful thing.

a reply to: phinubian

The use of force was illegal that hold is not approved by NYPD

The decision to take the guy down with a sudden, decisive use of force was made because the guy was 6-03 and 350 lbs and because he was already becoming physically resistant to the arrest. If the guy was allowed to fight, the guy would have been a serious threat.

Again, touching someone's neck during a fight is not tantamount to a choke hold.

pitiful and shameful just as much a gang as crips or bloods or any other

Really, try suing or filing a complaint against the bloods or crips for how they would treat you.

a reply to: Daedalus
They are just teasing you. Like a child shooting a spit wad.