“There is a war coming in Europe”

Neither side has any interest in war. Russia because it is a losing proposition and the US and West because Russia would collapse and that would mean anarcy and chaos across Europe, the Mid East and Asia. And that would be enough to wreck economies with trade disruptions, mass refugee flows and all kind of weapon flowing all over the place. This would be bad for everybody in particular the Banksters as you like to call them who would see mass defaulting on loans though out Russia and surrounding nations and the chaos spread.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Would you say that Russia has responded proportionately and honestly?

Proportionately? Yes I would say so. There is a direct military threat to them if Ukraine becomes a member of NATO.

Honestly? That's harder to determine with all the propaganda and lies coming out of the region. My best guess is they are supplying weapons to the separatist movement which is what I would be doing in their place. I've read a couple stories where they are sending in some heavy hitters to take over leadership positions in the pro-Russia militias.

Bottom line IMO is this whole mess wouldn't have happened if our greed and (NATO) desires hadn't destabilized Ukraine to begin with. That makes the US, EU, NATO, IMF and the west in general the bad guys from what I can tell.

a reply to: sparky31

Or: America keeps instigating coups and wars all over the world while stealing resources and spying on everyone, supplying terrorists with weapons, and supporting apartheid in Palestine, and everyone backs off because they dont want to start a war.

Which is it really? I mean, objectively. Pretend one doesnt have a subconscious full of thought channels created by years of nationalist conditioning. Not excusing other nations, but the american government has truly instigated more war and terror than any other nation on the planet during my lifetime. I wish it werent so, because there is so much that is great about america. Otoh, we need to not be myopic.

Remember when Romney called Russia America's greatest geopolitical foe? Obama's response was, "The 1980's are calling and they want their foreign policy back because the Cold War's been over for 20 years".

How's that working out for you Obama?

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: smurfy

originally posted by: DeadSeraph


Are you honestly going to tell me that Russia's hands are clean in the Ukraine? Can you do that with a straight face?

Why just Russia?

I never claimed the west is innocent in any of this. There is plenty of blame to go around.

I understand that, but this is the need to know, and we do know that, first off Yanukovych was ousted pretty much as Russia says, by a Coup d'état when he went back to courting Russia for economic aid..after courting the EU for same...question, why did that happen?

a reply to: Bassago

That is a fair assessment, imo. And one that I agree with for the most part, except I wouldn't call the west the "bad guys" when it's Russia's actions that have escalated the situation militarily. We have 298 dead innocent civilians as a result of this conflict (and another 1300 or so dead Ukrainians/Russians). That didn't need to happen. Russia has not been forthright or honest about it's intentions, for whatever reason. Perhaps Putin feels there is no negotiating with the Americans and Europeans (he is a bi-product of the cold war after all) or perhaps he feels this is an opportune time to stake his claim of former Russian territory. Clearly, he is playing on Russian/Ukrainian ethnic tensions, which makes him a traitor to both peoples when they share such a close history (in my very blunt opinion).

Either way, Putin has responded to the encroachment of the west with force and propaganda, rather than diplomacy, and it didn't take him very long to do it (Crimea). I agree 100% with you on the west being guilty of encroaching on traditionally Russian interests and meddling in the Ukraine, and I do not believe for one minute that their reasons for doing so had anything to do with the interests of the Ukrainian people (they had dollar signs in their eyes). However, that does not excuse Russian actions since then, nor does it make the lies they have been caught in time and time again disappear.

So what is the solution? Let me ask you this: If tomorrow, Putin phoned up the separatists and told them it was all over, and he wanted to negotiate, do you think they'd keep fighting? I don't think they would. Putin can solve this conflict single handedly at the negotiating table. He wasn't trained to negotiate with westerners though, was he?

a reply to: jude11

The People?

Don't want it.

What if someone held a war and no one showed up?

Peace

That's what mercenaries are for, to provoke defensive reflex.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: jude11

The People?

Don't want it.

What if someone held a war and no one showed up?

Peace

That's what mercenaries are for, to provoke defensive reflex.

And it's worked brilliantly in the Ukraine so far.

originally posted by: MrSpad
Neither side has any interest in war. Russia because it is a losing proposition and the US and West because Russia would collapse and that would mean anarcy and chaos across Europe, the Mid East and Asia. And that would be enough to wreck economies with trade disruptions, mass refugee flows and all kind of weapon flowing all over the place. This would be bad for everybody in particular the Banksters as you like to call them who would see mass defaulting on loans though out Russia and surrounding nations and the chaos spread.

unless of course that is the plan

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Its sad, we keep falling for the same old tricks. War is one mega psy-op.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: loam

I believe he is correct there is war coming. Starting to look pretty obvious considering the tons of vindictive unsubstantiated accusations against Russia from the west.

And the US is gearing up for it fast. The question is what is the real motive?

How about this:

Senate Bill 2277 Isn’t Just about ‘Russian Agression’ — It’s Also about Oil, Gas and Propaganda

Another war of greed and misery. This time they may get more than they planned on.

Europe is more or less held hostage by Russia over oil and gas supplies. Britain privatized their energy companies in the 1990's by the Conservatives. The idea was that the little people could all have a share in British industry. But as they retired and cashed in their shares for their retirement, these shares were bought up by portfolio management companies, pension funds and life assurance companies. Now we see annual price increases of 10% due to the fact we produce more energy than we need in Summer, sell it off abroad, and then buy it back again at twice the price in Winter.

So they would like to get access and control of the Ukrainian pipelines if not the gas fields.

From a Russian viewpoint, Europe keeps creeping forward and advancing around their Western border, and from what they can see, the same strategy of destabilisation, fragmentation and internal fights between ethnic groups is being set up. Their economy has grown massively through these energy companies.

originally posted by: Bassago
The question is what is the real motive?

Let me add the "great devide".

- ensure the west is welded together against Russia as the clear external enemy
- isolate BRICS
- protect the US-led economic hegemony and the supremacy of the U$D as the global reserve currency.

It's always about the monetary hegemony.

Greetings Professor Falken

Hello

A strange game.
The only winning move is
Not to play.

There is already a war in Europe?

Ukraine is a country in Eastern Europe.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

I wouldn't call the west the "bad guys" when it's Russia's actions that have escalated the situation militarily.

As the west started this whole mess I would. Guess we just disagree on that part.

Let me ask you this: If tomorrow, Putin phoned up the separatists and told them it was all over, and he wanted to negotiate, do you think they'd keep fighting?

I think they would keep fighting as long as Kiev keeps attacking and bombing them, their cities and civilians.

As far as negotiating I believe Putin has continuously called for cease fire and negotiations. Kiev and those in the west pushing them (IMF in particular) will not negotiate until they have crushed the resistance.

Ukraine crisis: Putin backs ceasefire, but calls for negotiation
Putin supports Ukraine ceasefire, calls for negotiations
Putin supports Ukraine's ceasefire move, calls for sides to negotiate

Looks to me like Putin is calling for a cease fire and negotiations. Unfortunately it appears that Kiev and the west do not want to hear about it. Add that to the sheer volume of lies that have come from the US State Department on the matter gives me little hope there will not be war.

originally posted by: ColCurious

originally posted by: Bassago
The question is what is the real motive?

Let me add the "great devide".

- ensure the west is welded together against Russia as the clear external enemy
- isolate BRICS
- protect the US-led economic hegemony and the supremacy of the U$D as the global reserve currency.

It's always about the monetary hegemony.

They pulled the same sh*t on Germany in WW1.. This is nothing new. It amazes me how people keep falling for it.

I was hoping someone would make a thread about this because this is what almost all conflicts are about when you get to the root cause - control of resources and money/power. This ruling worries me as it is an international court telling a sovereign nation how to prosecute a company extracting resources from their nation when domestic courts found them guilty of tax evasion using offshore accounts. A lot of companies do this around the world and more often than not get away with it. This ruling will only embolden these companies.

I also found out when looking into this the individual (Leonid Nevzlin) who is going to get the majority of this payout fled to Israel and was tried in absentia and found guilty of several counts of conspiracy to murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. Most of the people involved in the company were the robber barons who gained control of resources during the turmoil in the 90s. I doubt these guys are any better than Putin's mob and may be worse.

www.bloomberg.com...

a reply to: Bassago

Putin has done one thing in the UN and on the international stage while doing another with his other hand. Something both he and the west are guilty of here, and neither is revealing their hand.

originally posted by: DancedWithWolves

www.youtube.com...

I would think humans are more intelligent than warmongering savages....but then again, there is the Pentagon and Kremlin.

But in a historical sense, this is NOTHING like the scenario of WW2.
Lets see, the Russians had just come out of a revolution in the 1920s and Stalin had just murdered 10 million Cossacks.
The Spanish were having a civil war in the 1930s.
The Japanese had invaded Manchuria (China) and killed 30 million civilians in the 1930s.
The US/England/France had so devistated Germany after WW1 with sanctions, restrictions, control etc, that Germany Had a 1000000%, inflation rate, 90% unemployment, people were starving, and a leader came out and proclaimed to rebuild Germany and its traditional states...and he did. Unfortunately like many leaders, he lost control of himself and had delusions of grandeur. Then England declared war on Germany (not the other way around) and so it went.

I don't see the same turmoil as back in the 1930s.

And now we have a Well armed Nuclear China, a Well armed Nuclear India (both with 1 billion soldiers), well armed crazy ME states, well armed other Asians....right on Russia's door step.

Not like the 1930s when some people only had pickforks and 3 bullets to fight.