You scream about dead Palestines? What about the dead in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.....

a reply to: DarknStormy

So you are saying that the only way to justify that land as a Jewish state is by adhering to Jewish religious fanaticism? doing what the muslim world seems to do... oh so well?

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: DarknStormy

So you are saying that the only way to justify that land as a Jewish state is by adhering to Jewish religious fanaticism? doing what the muslim world seems to do... oh so well?

What I'm saying is that it's ridiculous to use Judaism as a justification to acquire that land and then ditch the very writings you used in the first place to install something that is against Judaism. Zionists using the Torah to justify their claim to that land is fanaticism. A fanaticism that has nothing to do with Judaism when it comes down to it.

I think the US is trying to take down Israel by proxy. Don't know why they are turning against all their allies like Egypt but it's not looking good.

As a general rule of thumb, if my opinions on current events go against those expressed by the MSM, I assume I'm on the correct side of the matter.

a reply to: amfirst1

It does seem to be turning that way. Old enemies are friends and Old friends are becoming enemies. It's not consistent with all of them, but enough key examples to make the world look very strange right now. Almost an alternate reality at times.

Like an episode of that old show Sliders that won't end.

originally posted by: DarknStormy

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: g146541

The term as I know it is defined as the formation of a jewish state.

So when I see people say they anti-Zionist, I take that to mean they are against jews forming the state of Israel.

Perhaps there is another definition that I am unfamiliar with.

As I said in another post, most Zionists are Atheist or they call themselves Atheist Jews. In other words they are Godless Jews. How can they call themselves that in the first place? Being Jewish is all about believing in God and upholding the Jewish teachings. It's like me saying I am the head of the Islamic Caliphate but believe the teachings of Islam are a load of hogwash.. It is hypocritical and really doesn't make sense.

But here's what I think they are doing.. They have taken the religious element out of their belief's because the religious element proves that they are in fact wrong. If one was to look through the Jewish religious laws they would find that Zionism commits actions which a religious obeying Jew is prohibited from committing. Even the State of Israel is prohibited in their teachings so if Judaism itself is against the creation of Israel, then how can someone be Anti-Jewish when they are simply pointing out something that is Anti-Jewish in the first place?

Zionism is Anti-Jewish. They are merely the care takers of the Jewish people through Non-Jewish rule. A religious State of Israel must be controlled by Jewish Law, not secular Law.

So are you for the nation of Israel or do you feel that they shouldn't have the nation of Israel?

a reply to: DarknStormy

This could go on and on.... i think what this really is about is what makes a jew a jew?
Jews have a right to their state, regardless of what jewish religious beliefs anyone holds!
if a time ever comes when there is not a single individual in that land that claims to be jewish either by blood or faith, then and only then will your argument hold.

Im not gonna derail this thread any longer.....

a reply to: combatmaster

OK then let's look at it another way. The ancient Israeli borders run from the Nile to the Euphrates remembering they used that part of the Torah to justify their claim to the modern State of Israel. That would put Lebanon, Syria, Part of Iraq, Part of Egypt within those boundaries. Do the Zionists have the right to take that land also because it rightfully belongs to them through previous accounts? What they have now is only a fraction of ancient Israel.. Should they invade those countries to take back what is rightfully theirs? Serious question..

originally posted by: beezzer

So are you for the nation of Israel or do you feel that they shouldn't have the nation of Israel?

It's not about whether Israel is here or not, it's about people using Judaism and then simply throwing that religion in the bin to follow their own goals and agenda's from a secular standpoint. Israel was always going to make another appearance somewhere down the track and no-one can or could of stopped that.

It's similar to the Mahdi returning, it doesn't matter whether we believe he is good or bad, he will return eventually and no-one will stop that. Same a Christ, he will return eventually and no-one will stop that. The same applies to Israel, It's central to all the Monotheistic religions but what we must determine is whether this Israel is the Holy State of Israel and from what I am seeing, it doesn't come close to being Holy or righteous.

I believe Israel has a right to exist but Zionism is not the answer to Israel.

a reply to: DarknStormy

Thats a good question.

Israel just wants peace. So if what you said above was the partition plan of the british mandate (if it wouldn't have been split with france) and they decided to give all that insanely huge land mass to the jews then yes the jews wouldn't say no.

But the british mandate was different and the jews/zionists accepted it.

So to answer your question, No, the Jews dont have the right as that would mean invading/destroying other sovereign nations, and israel just want peace.

originally posted by: DarknStormy

I believe Israel has a right to exist but Zionism is not the answer to Israel.

Zionism is the desire to exist as a nation.

So you believe they have the right to exist, they just can't have a country to exist in?

originally posted by: g146541

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Bagel
a reply to: hellobruce

Israel is a developed democracy with a thriving culture. Do Israeli leaders and Academics see this as the best solution to the Hamas "problem"?
The killing and destruction on this scale only seeds more hate and animosity. Sure, you will set Hamas back two to three years, but this attack has guaranteed there will be a next generation. Anti Israeli sentiment is at an all time high.

Well just know that Hamas would not be shamed if Israle let them launch 1000 rockets a day without retaliation and just took it on the chin.

This next generation argument is for the birds. Hitler was a next generation man and ended up destroying his own people after selling them that line of bull. That next generation that was going to fix all the ills done to their forefathers ended up dead on the fields of Europe and took a lot of innocent people with them.

Funny that you see what hitler did from almost a century ago, but you cannot see in real time that Nitwityahoo is doing the same to israel.
Like I have said many times, defund the mid east and people would have to get along.
No money for weapons, no war.
People will have to get on doing people things like farming and building to live!

What I try not to do is narrow my vision.

originally posted by: g146541
a reply to: Logarock
You ask..

Do you see Jewish groups setting off bombs in Germany?

Why all of the jew hate?
There are many jews that despise the murder of innocents, remember they are human too and love their children just like any muslim, christian, pagan or whatever.
But if you must have an answer to your question, No I do not see jews setting off bombs.
I do however see Zionists doing much much worse all over the world though.

Well then I will leave you to your Mein Kampf.

originally posted by: beezzer

Zionism is the desire to exist as a nation.

Yes and it was met with condemnation from Jews back in the day in Germany.

The first Zionist Congress was called by Theodor Herzl as a symbolic Parliament for those in sympathy with the implementation of Zionist goals. Herzl had planned to hold the gathering in Munich, but due to local Jewish opposition he transferred the gathering to Basel, Switzerland. The Congress took place in the concert hall of the Basel Municipal Casino on August 29, 1897.

So is it what Jews actually wanted in the first place?

So you believe they have the right to exist, they just can't have a country to exist in?

Some Jews believe Israel has no right to exist, some don't.. Going off what I have researched, through Judaism Israel is illegitimate.

a reply to: DarknStormy

I'm just trying to get honest opinions here.

You don't think Israel should exist?
Okay. Your opinion, fair enough.

I wish more people would stop trying to hide behind obfuscation and lengthy-wordy explanations.

I, personally, think Israel should exist as a country. And defend itself as they see fit.

But that's just my opinion.

a reply to: beezzer

What do you want me to say? My opinion is based off Judaism and though I believe Israel should Exist I also see it as illegitimate from a religious view... So its not that I believe Israel should be bombed back to the stone age, I do not agree with Zionism and that's it. Zionism is like the KKK forming a Christian nation in the Middle of Africa. Obviously issues are going to arise if that was to happen.

That's my opinion.

I think rather than moan about the world showing anger, empathy and sympathy about men, women and children being slaughtered you should respect that people are upset by it and are calling for an end to it.

The killing elsewhere is also tragic and if you have information on this, then please share this in a thread and inform people. Do not slate that people are trying to end the Israel massacre on Palestine.

The Israel occupation and oppression of Palestine is not a new thing, it has been ongoing for a long time. People are aware of it and are sick to the teeth of Israel continually oppressing Palestine. It needs to stop as does all war and killing.

originally posted by: shayhorse
I think the solution in Gaza is comparatively simple, return land taken from Palestine and allow humanitarian services into the area.
The idea was doomed from the start as British Palestine was carved up what did they really think would happen. Israel expands taking more and more land cuts power and services to Palestine, no help from UN etc....so at what stage do you fight back?
This recent push is just another land grab the more land taken the more desperate HAMAS will become eventually leading to a big bang then everyone will scream terror attack without thinking of how the situation developed.

at what point do you say f this and move?

finding housing has to be a bitch.

originally posted by: shayhorse
I think the solution in Gaza is comparatively simple, return land taken from Palestine and allow humanitarian services into the area.

How simple it sounds when you lay it out like that.

Then perhaps the USA should give back New Mexico and California to Mexico, and give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians?

Perhaps France, Russia and Poland should give back land taken from Germany after the Second World War, and perhaps any people that lost land in past conflicts should get their land back... which would change 99% of all borders on this planet.

Or do we just apply high standards of morals and ethics when it comes to Israel?

You mean Hamas is fighting to get Palestinian land back? I thought their plan was simply to exterminate all Jews, at least that's what their own manifesto says:

4. By command of the Prophet, Muslims might fight the Jews and kill them wherever they are.

mecra.tripod.com...

originally posted by: shayhorse
The idea was doomed from the start as British Palestine was carved up what did they really think would happen.

Kind of like Pakistan, wouldn't you say, which is an artificially created nation for Indian muslims, justified only by islamic bigotry. There's really no difference between Israel and Pakistan in that respect. You know, when Pakistan was created, 14 million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were forced from their ancestral lands and shipped to the 'right' side of the border, whereas in Israel 750 000 Palestinians were displaced, but for some reason the Palestinian drama outshines all other ethnic conflicts in the world.