You scream about dead Palestines? What about the dead in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.....

a reply to: g146541

What is your definition of Zionism?

a reply to: stirling
Maybe they will find the cash, but it will not be coming from our taxes.
I do not like supporting murder.
If in the event they do end up having to go hand to hand, that is a much different kind of war and there would have to be ALOT less innocents killed as directed attacks can very seldom be lied away as "collateral damage".
Plus killing up close and personal is a whole different brand of killing, it is not as simple as hitting a switch and dropping a bomb that will kill dozens or more.
Watching someone die whether by your hand or not leaves a sort of echo, something sad as if you lost a tiny piece of something.
Much like the spark or something that I have noticed leave a woman's eyes who has just given something of herself in birth.

a reply to: Jesuslives4u
It is sad for anyone to die in war, no matter the region or war being fought, the problem we have is that the Palestinians have not quite come to the point of accepting a peace treaty, a reservation and just go quietly after defeat sort of like the Native Americans.
The same land not just the so called Israelis can lay claim to but for many of the Palestinians they too have memories of the same land that their great, great, great grandparents called home as well, shame on those who do this to their own brothers of flesh and blood on either sided, for any reason, here on planet earth, get rid of the dogmas of religion, there is no adult explanation for any of this, and most sickening both sides are the victims of being made into pawns of a greater hand that is to blame for this complete and utter nonsense.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: g146541

What is your definition of Zionism?

To be as accurate as possible for me would be difficult, the term "war pig" comes to mind.
Why do you ask?

a reply to: g146541

I've looked up the definition myself, have seen "anti-Zionism" bandied about much recently.

I hear people claim that they are not anti-jewish, but they are anti-Zionist.

I'm curious as to the distinction.

Wow, an Israeli-Palestinian debate thread not driven by hate, with some interesting POVs.

A big applause to Turkey for invading, occupying and settling Cyphrus with Turkish colonists, oppressing the Kurdish people, massacing Armenians, then pretending to be the great champion of humanity by defending the Palestinian cause and Gaza. Had any of the Middle East dictatorships cared anything whatsoever about the Palestinians then the Palestinian conflict could have been solved half a century ago.

I welcome all Pro-Palestinian activists to rally in defense of the Kurds, the Karen people, the Papous, the Basques or the Tibetans, or any of the countless of other ethnic communities in the world threatened by a larger one. Take a good look at the world map, study the demographics, try to figure out where and in what countries the greater harm is done to the greater population in terms of oppression, racial, cultural, social and religious discrimination, and tell me honestly if you think the one nation that merits most of your contempt is Israel.

That said, I wish to see an Israel above its neighbors in respect for justice, human rights, tolerance and peace...

post 2

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: g146541

I've looked up the definition myself, have seen "anti-Zionism" bandied about much recently.

I hear people claim that they are not anti-jewish, but they are anti-Zionist.

I'm curious as to the distinction.

If it helps, I know of many jews that hate what the Zionists do in their name.
By using the jew cover, maybe this is why jews have been looked upon so badly through the past.
Just because the term "Zionist" is fairly new does not mean the idea was not there for a long time.
Ideas are timeless, and bullet proof as well.

a reply to: Heliocentric

You are right there. The Karen people would trade places with any Palestinian and thank the heavens they were given the opportunity.

I thought the last "Rambo" movie was fiction and drama until I looked into why they chose that setting and those people for the film. Learning the truth was a very shocking thing in a war that seemingly doesn't exist in public awareness.

The Palestinians have the best P.R. machine ever created for a people in conflict and they insure the world never forgets that there is no one more victimized and more in demand of help than they are. Simply ask their spokesmen. Just have a lot of spare time for the rambling answers.

a reply to: g146541

The term as I know it is defined as the formation of a jewish state.

So when I see people say they anti-Zionist, I take that to mean they are against jews forming the state of Israel.

Perhaps there is another definition that I am unfamiliar with.

I think the solution in Gaza is comparatively simple, return land taken from Palestine and allow humanitarian services into the area.
The idea was doomed from the start as British Palestine was carved up what did they really think would happen. Israel expands taking more and more land cuts power and services to Palestine, no help from UN etc....so at what stage do you fight back?
This recent push is just another land grab the more land taken the more desperate HAMAS will become eventually leading to a big bang then everyone will scream terror attack without thinking of how the situation developed.

a reply to: beezzer

Being Jewish doesn't mean you're Zionist. Being a Zionist doesn't mean you're Jewish.

a reply to: Jesuslives4u

These stories wlll be replaced...and others buried. Its what the media has always done. Youll soon forget about these, and be like the rest of us: appalled at the next big story.

Until theres another to replace that one. How many stories like these have you heard over the years? How many are we still talking about?Welcome to the world.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: g146541

The term as I know it is defined as the formation of a jewish state.

So when I see people say they anti-Zionist, I take that to mean they are against jews forming the state of Israel.

Perhaps there is another definition that I am unfamiliar with.

As I said in another post, most Zionists are Atheist or they call themselves Atheist Jews. In other words they are Godless Jews. How can they call themselves that in the first place? Being Jewish is all about believing in God and upholding the Jewish teachings. It's like me saying I am the head of the Islamic Caliphate but believe the teachings of Islam are a load of hogwash.. It is hypocritical and really doesn't make sense.

But here's what I think they are doing.. They have taken the religious element out of their belief's because the religious element proves that they are in fact wrong. If one was to look through the Jewish religious laws they would find that Zionism commits actions which a religious obeying Jew is prohibited from committing. Even the State of Israel is prohibited in their teachings so if Judaism itself is against the creation of Israel, then how can someone be Anti-Jewish when they are simply pointing out something that is Anti-Jewish in the first place?

Zionism is Anti-Jewish. They are merely the care takers of the Jewish people through Non-Jewish rule. A religious State of Israel must be controlled by Jewish Law, not secular Law.

originally posted by: DarknStormy

originally posted by: hellobruce

Can the Jews be blamed for the war in Syria or Libya or Iraq? If they cannot be blamed then the Anti Jewish propaganda machine is not interested.

Zionism is not Judaism and assuming everyone against Israels actions are Anti Jew is idiotic. Most Zionist's are Atheist's, how are people Anti Jewish when condemning Zionist actions?

So tell me.... what is so unjust about Zionism then? Zionism is simply the belief that the Jews should have a country in part of their ancestral homeland.

Unless you believe that Israel should entirely cease to exist, you are yourself a Zionist....

a reply to: Jesuslives4u

I think you make a very good point-- and it seems likely there will be lots
more dead in Ukraine.

Rebel 5

originally posted by: combatmaster

So tell me.... what is so unjust about Zionism then? Zionism is simply the belief that the Jews should have a country in part of their ancestral homeland.

That's fine but did their ancestors (if they were ancestors) operate under secular laws and not Jewish Laws? From what I can gather, they were destroyed twice for not upholding the Jewish Laws.

Unless you believe that Israel should entirely cease to exist, you are yourself a Zionist....

The current Israel is the Secular (Godless) State of Israel... It's as simple as that. It doesn't make me a Zionist, I don't even believe Israel shouldn't exist and from a religious perspective this was always going to happen regardless and no-one can change that. But while I say that, from a religious point of view Zionism is unrighteous and that's a fact.

a reply to: DarknStormy

That's fine but did their ancestors (if they were ancestors) operate under secular laws and not Jewish Laws?

What difference does ones religious adherence make to state sovereignty?

The current Israel is the Secular (Godless) State of Israel... It's as simple as that. It doesn't make me a Zionist, I don't even believe Israel shouldn't exist and from a religious perspective this was always going to happen regardless and no-one can change that. But while I say that, from a religious point of view Zionism is unrighteous and that's a fact.

So what are you saying? that Jews dont have a right to their own land because the messiah hasnt arrived yet?? why is Zionism unrighteous? Jews once had a sovereign state in that land known as israel which is in the larger geographical region known as palestine. the only sovereign state to ever exist in that land, mind you!

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: DarknStormy

What difference does ones religious adherence make to state sovereignty?

How can Religion support Godlessness? In this case, how can Jews support Atheist Zionism ? Maybe they are Atheists and not Jews to begin with.

So what are you saying? that Jews dont have a right to their own land because the messiah hasnt arrived yet??

Jews had the right to that land before Zionism. Jews lived in Palestine alongside Arabs in peace before Zionism entered the equation. It's not about Jews having the right to that land, it's about Zionism. The Jews who lived in Palestine prior to 1948 were more concerned about the European immigrations and Zionism more than the Arabs were, are they Anti-Jewish?

Why is Zionism unrighteous?

From a religious perspective Zionism is unrighteous.. Doesn't Atheism tending to the needs of religious people boggle your mind? Dangerous for Jews comes to my mind.

Jews once had a sovereign state in that land known as israel which is in the larger geographical region known as palestine. the only sovereign state to ever exist in that land, mind you!

Jews had a sovereign State of Israel twice in the past under the Laws of Judaism. When they left those laws, they were destroyed and sent into exile. Funnily enough one of the countries that are calling for an armed resistance against Israel today were one of those countries in the past.

The key point you omit is that the previous two Israel's were ruled by Jewish Religious Law and were destroyed when they began to veer from those laws. This time around, Jewish law didn't even factor in Israel. Going by previous accounts, Israel is destined to be destroyed once again. Don't think that's what I want to happen either.

a reply to: Jesuslives4u

Shall we just not be outraged by anything at all, then? Would that make you happy - or must we all die early deaths of taking on every single one of the world's problems?

There are some things which we cannot control and if we worry about all of them, we go insane and die.

What the hell do you want from us all?