Looking into the past, we can see a template for the present. Is "progressive" always progress?

Firstly, this is not an attack on any political party, nor am I advocating for any party. Conservative/Progressive are mind-sets, both of which have their merits and should be applied in different situations.

You could call the revolutionary war, and what followed shortly after progressive ideas - Moving forward, advancing, and changing. Coming up with new ideas, new ways to spark the nation and get things going, finding a way to prosperity and growing as a people, and a nation.

America used to be amazing, do you agree?

We used to be the top economy in the world, we used to be advanced and achieve great things.

But then things kept changing - Was this, and is this a good thing?

People constantly tear down people that want to stick to more traditional ways, saying we need to change, we need to do things differently - But why? Where is the proof that continuing to do things differently has made things better? You look at past examples, great nations that fell - They fell because they changed too much, they accepted too many ideas, they lost all morality to greed and selfishness and the corrupt with their agendas took over.

A quick search shows some of these reasons why rome fell -
Decline in Morals and Values - Including Prostitution, and entertainment ( Gladiator fights )

Political Corruption - Gradually, the Praetorian Guard gained complete authority to choose the new emperor, who rewarded the guard who then became more influential, perpetuating the cycle. - Sound familiar? Replace the guard with corporations.

Unemployment - During the latter years of the empire farming was done on large estates called latifundia that were owned by wealthy men who used slave labor. A farmer who had to pay workmen could not produce goods as cheaply

Inflation - The rich paid a lot of gold for luxury items, but gold within the hands of the common person was falling short, gold in the form of coins in the hands of the average citizen became lower and lower, and became less valuable, as the rich-mans currency was more preferred.

Military Spending - The empire had to begin hiring soldiers recruited from the unemployed city mobs or worse from foreign counties. Such an army was not only unreliable, but very expensive. The emperors were forced to raise taxes frequently which in turn led again to increased inflation.

Public Health - Many health and environmental problems, including using lead pipes to transport water.

Within these examples, what cannot be compared to today?

originally posted by: deadlyhope
Firstly, this is not an attack on any political party, nor am I advocating for any party. Conservative/Progressive are mind-sets, both of which have their merits and should be applied in different situations.

You could call the revolutionary war, and what followed shortly after progressive ideas - Moving forward, advancing, and changing. Coming up with new ideas, new ways to spark the nation and get things going, finding a way to prosperity and growing as a people, and a nation.

America used to be amazing, do you agree?

We used to be the top economy in the world, we used to be advanced and achieve great things.

But then things kept changing - Was this, and is this a good thing?

People constantly tear down people that want to stick to more traditional ways, saying we need to change, we need to do things differently - But why? Where is the proof that continuing to do things differently has made things better? You look at past examples, great nations that fell - They fell because they changed too much, they accepted too many ideas, they lost all morality to greed and selfishness and the corrupt with their agendas took over.

A quick search shows some of these reasons why rome fell -
Decline in Morals and Values - Including Prostitution, and entertainment ( Gladiator fights )

Political Corruption - Gradually, the Praetorian Guard gained complete authority to choose the new emperor, who rewarded the guard who then became more influential, perpetuating the cycle. - Sound familiar? Replace the guard with corporations.

Unemployment - During the latter years of the empire farming was done on large estates called latifundia that were owned by wealthy men who used slave labor. A farmer who had to pay workmen could not produce goods as cheaply

Inflation - The rich paid a lot of gold for luxury items, but gold within the hands of the common person was falling short, gold in the form of coins in the hands of the average citizen became lower and lower, and became less valuable, as the rich-mans currency was more preferred.

Military Spending - The empire had to begin hiring soldiers recruited from the unemployed city mobs or worse from foreign counties. Such an army was not only unreliable, but very expensive. The emperors were forced to raise taxes frequently which in turn led again to increased inflation.

Public Health - Many health and environmental problems, including using lead pipes to transport water.

Within these examples, what cannot be compared to today?

Rome fell because of the splitting of the east and west empires and the invasion of the Mongols....after converting to Christianity, in fact it lasted for a couple thousand years as a pagan empire then fell after a couple hundred years of Christian rule...

a reply to: ArtemisE

You posted something I just barely found while researching this, but my original statement still stands. Change is not always good - In this case, it happens to be changing to Christianity.

Now days we seem to be going from religious and personal freedoms to political correctness and what not. Look at how much different religions are persecuted now days, even though America was established as having freedom of religion, and not meant to be persecuted due to belief.

a reply to: deadlyhope

I see little value in poking through the ashes of the Roman Empire. In 2014 our job is to distill and assimilate the ideas that have shown to be of value. A great deal of the wisdom and virtue of ancient Roman thought has been woven into our culture. And of course this means that many other cultures and ideals have shaped who we are. Progress means change for the better. If we do not progress, then we sink into oblivion.

a reply to: Diderot

We do? No one has lived thousands of years and seen evidence that staying the same is bad. As ArtermisE mentions, they lasted thousands of years as a pagan empire, yet quickly fell once that all changed.

Why are people set on change?

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: Diderot

We do? No one has lived thousands of years and seen evidence that staying the same is bad. As ArtermisE mentions, they lasted thousands of years as a pagan empire, yet quickly fell once that all changed.

Why are people set on change?

The world has constantly gotten better for human beings. Longest life span ever. Facebook exc. change is usually progress.

a reply to: deadlyhope

"Why are people set on change?"

People are set on change because we are not perfect.
Who would claim that we should not strive for perfection?
Of course we shall never attain perfection,
but it is the right course to pursue.
What goal is better than progress?

a reply to: Diderot

Change and progress are not even close to the same thing. Yes, progression would require change... But likely going back a bit. Remembering what once made America one of the top nations in the world, and changing back to that nation. I'm makingthe ppoint that things used to be better.

a reply to: ArtemisE

Rome fell because of the splitting of the east and west empires and the invasion of the Mongols....after converting to Christianity, in fact it lasted for a couple thousand years as a pagan empire then fell after a couple hundred years of Christian rule...

What are the "official" dates of the Roman Empire ?

Are we certain Rome ever actually "Fell" ?

a reply to: xuenchen

How do you define falling?

I suppose decline would be a better word to describe what the USA is going through. Perhaps Rome is the same.

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: ArtemisE

Rome fell because of the splitting of the east and west empires and the invasion of the Mongols....after converting to Christianity, in fact it lasted for a couple thousand years as a pagan empire then fell after a couple hundred years of Christian rule...

What are the "official" dates of the Roman Empire ?

Are we certain Rome ever actually "Fell" ?

Yup they lost all there land and became a church

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: xuenchen

How do you define falling?

I suppose decline would be a better word to describe what the USA is going through. Perhaps Rome is the same.

Decline???? As compared to when? When was America better for it's population then now?

a reply to: ArtemisE

So we're in less debt than ever, more independent than ever, the economy is flourishing , unemployment is way down and the people are happy?

No? Oh...

Those are all worse than ever.

a reply to: deadlyhope

"Change and progress are not even close to the same thing. Yes, progression would require change... But likely going back a bit. Remembering what once made America one of the top nations in the world, and changing back to that nation. I'm making the point that things used to be better."

Yes, yes! Change and progress are not even close to the same thing. Progression going back a bit is an oxymoron; it makes my brain bleed, unless we revert to wisdom forsaken. It does happen you know; two steps backward, one step forward.

But I see a future of two steps forward.

I think you need to define progress as forward progression from point A to B and regression as backward from point B to A . This is independent of what A or B is.

For example: The cancer is progressing - not good. The cancer is regressing - good. So if we are progressing toward our destruction - bad, regressing - good.

Also, progress isn't an end in itself, we progress toward something, once we've arrived we have progressed. If we want to "progress" more, we need something else to aim for, another goal.

Progress can be good, bad, both or neither, depending on what is making progress.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: ArtemisE

So we're in less debt than ever, more independent than ever, the economy is flourishing , unemployment is way down and the people are happy?

No? Oh...

Those are all worse than ever.

You ignored the question...... What point in history was life better in America then now?

a reply to: ArtemisE

When has it ever been worse?

10 years ago, things were better.

90's were better - Much better economy.

80's were better - Raeganomics, anyone?

etc...

etc..

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: ArtemisE

So we're in less debt than ever, more independent than ever, the economy is flourishing , unemployment is way down and the people are happy?

No? Oh...

Those are all worse than ever.

The debt might be worse, but America is more valuable then ever before.

Have no clue what you mean by more independent, but we have way more information available.

The economy is bigger then ever before as well as Wall Street.


Unemployment is lower then 6 years ago and not even close to depression levels.



When has happiness been tracked? Lmao



The world has only ever improved. It's always trending up thanks to technology.

a reply to: ArtemisE

I suppose you and I have different definitions of things being better.

More surveillance.
More Tyranny.
Less freedom.
Smaller middle class.
Wars based on agenda.
Hell, we can't even get food that's natural for our bodies.

I'm glad you enjoy your flat screen tv, though. Thumbs up to technology eh?

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: ArtemisE

When has it ever been worse?

10 years ago, things were better.

90's were better - Much better economy.

80's were better - Raeganomics, anyone?

etc...

etc..

For everyone????

Reaganomics brought us the war on drugs remember? Trillions spent, countless lives ruined, countless lives lost, and for no benifit.

A better economy where we had less comfortable lives..... No internet, smart phones, we were polluting far more then. Gay hate was at a far higher level as well as the racial divide greater. Back then a mixed race kid was in for an amazing school life...


You can't just say things were better and provide no examples of how things were better.



Medicine is better then ever.

Knowledge is far more readily available.


We've stopped having world wars... For now....

The poverty standard of living is higher then ever.


Every aspect of our lives is physically easier.

Transportation is far faster.

We are all connected by the internet.




I guess if your attempting to measure this year to the last year maybe in some ways we go back and forth, but if you look at it over the last century, it's not even close.