Iran Playing "Hide and Seek" with its Nuke Program

American Nationalist Mad Man,

If I could burn an effigie of Bush in protest of his actions that I dissaprove of, and not get thrown in Levenworth for voicing my opinion as the constitution allows, I would do it as well. Does that make me a terrorist? I guess the Marines should come to my townhouse and blow Me, my wife and my daughter to bits because of the opinions I hold. Why cant you understand that America is percieved as a threat to thier way of life because of Bush's war mongering. Iran had not openly threatened Iran untill we threatened them first. Maybe, just maybe, they are standing up to the bully that keeps beating the # out of everyone on thier block.

In some aspects, Iranians are more free than Americans as they can protest American actions.

If extreme white supremecist Christian wackjobs were running that country I would have the exact same concern! Thats what you don't get. My problem is not what religion it is, but that they will use religion as a justification to attack. The fact is, there are no radical Christian controled countries trying to rid the world of infedels to their religion - only Islamic ones. Thats just a fact.

No, thats not fact, that is crap.There are no countries controlled by Radical Islam anywhere in the world. Iran is relatively moderate, and seeks war with nobody. The radical Islam you are so scared of originates in Saudi, and is a Sunni sect, not Shia.

There isn't even a glimmer of evidence that suggest's they have a nuke, nor are capable of producing one. They are not trying to rid the world of infidels. I do not know where you get this from, but I suspect it is written by someone in their attic, wearing a tin foil hat...

No more insulting then you attacking me for mine and putting your own "ill thought out photo-garbage".

I apologise for my blatant hypocrasy there. And it was proto-garbage, but photo garbage is good, i might use that if you dont mind

quote:
And what version of Islam is it that has quite clearly "proven" to your enemy that dominates that country? Please enlighten me, as I am quite obviously missing something.

See above pictures and quote.

See above info on Radical Islam. Sunni Wahabbiists are what you need to clamp down on, not the relatively moderate chaps in charge of Iran. Not saying they are perfect, but a damn site better than having a bunch of OBL's in charge who would actually attack you with Nukes. Iran wouldn't dare unless attacked first, in which case, it has a legitimate right to use them.

They will talk to you because they know they can keep talking untill they have built their bomb. They will give the runaround to you guys for as long as possable. They know that Europeans don't have the mindset to back up their words, and they know they can call your bluff.

Thats EXACTLY what I would do if I were them - talk and talk and talk - and talk some more. Hell, I'm sure they will talk as long as they possably can.

Fine, let them talk, forgetting the fact we are a major trading partner, aid donor, and generally all round nice guys. I doubt they are developing WMD, as i have heard this Administrations BS before.

The IEAE says they don't have any, although some questions still remain.

But in many cases, its like trying to prove a negative, just like you guys did to Iraq last year. you put them in an impossible situation to try and prove that they don't have anything.....what else can you do apart from deny it?

Turns out they where telling the truth, never mind all the dead civilians and soldiers, the ruined country, and enflaming anti US feeling around the world, you got that Oil though didn't you!

As for WWII, I am sorry if you found it offensive, and honestly I do apologise for my less then apropriate word choice. My point is, the SAME THING HAPPENED IN WWII. You guys TALKED to Hitler. He BLATENTLY broke Germanys peace treaty from WWI - and you talked. He took Poland in September of 1939, you declared war...and then it took 8 months for you guys to even confront him in any major way!

Apology accepted.

yes, Hitler did break the treaty, but we where trying to avoid the terrible mistakes of the past, as Europe was sick of war, and it had nearly bankrupted us the first time round, and was the catalyst for the fall of the Empire.

It took 8 months as we where unprepared and had to mobalise our Army. How long did it take you to mobalise for Iraq, with todays logistical and military technology? And you planned for it!

Originally posted by Kidfinger
American Nationalist Mad Man,

If I could burn an effigie of Bush in protest of his actions that I dissaprove of, and not get thrown in Levenworth for voicing my opinion as the constitution allows, I would do it as well. Does that make me a terrorist?

No - but chanting death to America, supporting the killing of Americans and terrorism in general does. That is my point - these aren't just a bunch of college freshman demonstrating - they do in fact support terroism. Whether or not you chose to believe that is not my decision. But I think it should tell you something that France and Germany are ACTIVELY and EAGERLY trying to prevent Iran from obtaining nukes.

I guess the Marines should come to my townhouse and blow Me, my wife and my daughter to bits because of the opinions I hold. Why cant you understand that America is percieved as a threat to thier way of life because of Bush's war mongering. Iran had not openly threatened Iran untill we threatened them first. Maybe, just maybe, they are standing up to the bully that keeps beating the # out of everyone on thier block.

In some aspects, Iranians are more free than Americans as they can protest American actions.

Paaaaaaahleeeeeeez. Don't start this anti-Bush crap, OK. This sentimate was around LOOOOONG before he came into office.

And you better believe they see the US as a threat - we have the power to take them at will, and view them as an enemy, just as they view the US as an enemy. They are right to be scared. If they chose to "stand up" to the US, it will be a mistake on their part.

American Mad Man,

I think even God is telling you to let it go. You pretty much exemplify all that is wrong with our country: ignorance. From an argumentative point of view, your points and evidence mean absolutely nothing. For one thing, it is absolute crap to say "we supported dictators because we wanted to do the right thing!" First off, that makes no sense and is so not true. We supported the Shah for oil and then some oil. Second, how does helping somebody suppress and brutalize his own people the "right thing?" That doesn't even scratch the surface of how wrong all your arguments are. You just continue to act like America is God, we have never done anything wrong, deny anything bad we have done as liberal propaganda, throw "liberal" around some more, and when things don't go in your favor (which is always), you go for good and evil.

It's also depressing to see something proven true about America, that despite all our rhetoric, we really don't care for the rest of the world and refuse to actually learn about them. It's your choice, yes, but why do you carry out and support such ignorance?

It's apparent that you have either been brainwashed or you are just that blind and ignorant. I pity you. So until you make good points here, all we are reading is propaganda and incomprehensible rambling.

[edit on 4-12-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by stumason
No, thats not fact, that is crap.There are no countries controlled by Radical Islam anywhere in the world. Iran is relatively moderate, and seeks war with nobody. The radical Islam you are so scared of originates in Saudi, and is a Sunni sect, not Shia.

Listen, the declared intentions may be benevolent, but the true nature of their government is much more sinister.

As Iran's Islamic leader rallied demonstrators last week against reformist rapprochement with the United States, new evidence emerged tying Iranian officials to the truck bomb that killed 241 U.S. Marines in Beirut 16 years ago, as well as to the 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. NEWSWEEK has learned that a National Security Agency phone tap recorded a Sept. 24, 1983, call from the Iranian ambassador in Syria to his foreign minister, in which the ambassador relayed orders he'd given to Abu Haidar, leader of the Husaini Suicide Forces Movement. The ambassador told Haidar to get weapons from Yasir Arafat's Fatah group to "undertake an extraordinary operation against the Marines" in Beirut. A CIA source says U.S. military officials had the intercept in hand a month before the bombing, but failed to prevent it.

Newsweek, '99 - before 9/11

Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Cuba, North Korea, and Sudan continue to be the seven governments that the US Secretary of State has designated as state sponsors of international terrorism. Iran remained the most active state sponsor of terrorism in 2000. It provided increasing support to numerous terrorist groups, including the Lebanese Hizballah, HAMAS, and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ), which seek to undermine the Middle East peace negotiations through the use of terrorism.

US department of State

The information is coming from a variety of sources and shows a clear pattern of operational contacts between the Iranian government and Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda organization. These contacts include joint planning of terrorist operations, military training of bin Laden operatives inside Iran and by Iranian personnel in Syria and Lebanon, financial assistance to clandestine terrorist and surveillance cells, false passports, communications and, in one case, the direct supply of explosives by Iran for a major terrorist attack carried out by al-Qaeda.

Source

or, you can just read this: The History of Irans state sponsored terrorism

Now, what ever adjective you want to put infront of the word "islam" - be it radical or not - the fact remains that they do indeed sponsor terrorism, and the terrorists they sponsor are the radical Islamic type.

There isn't even a glimmer of evidence that suggest's they have a nuke, nor are capable of producing one. They are not trying to rid the world of infidels. I do not know where you get this from, but I suspect it is written by someone in their attic, wearing a tin foil hat...

No foil hats, just every news reporter and intel guy in the western world. As for the nukes, you are right they don't have one yet. But they are trying to get one. As I have shown they do indeed sponsor terrorism, and thus must be prevented from obtaining a nuclear weapon.

No more insulting then you attacking me for mine and putting your own "ill thought out photo-garbage".

I apologise for my blatant hypocrasy there. And it was proto-garbage, but photo garbage is good, i might use that if you dont mind

That has to be my best typo ever

See above info on Radical Islam. Sunni Wahabbiists are what you need to clamp down on, not the relatively moderate chaps in charge of Iran. Not saying they are perfect, but a damn site better than having a bunch of OBL's in charge who would actually attack you with Nukes. Iran wouldn't dare unless attacked first, in which case, it has a legitimate right to use them.

Again, see above post.

Fine, let them talk, forgetting the fact we are a major trading partner, aid donor, and generally all round nice guys. I doubt they are developing WMD, as i have heard this Administrations BS before.

Developing? They already have 2 out of 3. As for the BS - sorry - but Iran has STATED it wishes to obtain nuclear weapons.

The IEAE says they don't have any, although some questions still remain.

But in many cases, its like trying to prove a negative, just like you guys did to Iraq last year. you put them in an impossible situation to try and prove that they don't have anything.....what else can you do apart from deny it?

You can allow FULL inspections of ALL facilities. It's that simple. Say 'look where you must, because we have nothing to hide'. Thats the only reason we went into Iraq - because Saddam WAS in fact hiding something.

Turns out they where telling the truth, never mind all the dead civilians and soldiers, the ruined country, and enflaming anti US feeling around the world, you got that Oil though didn't you!

Saddam was lying - the WMDs were moved to Syria prior to the invasion. We may not have found them, but they were definatly there.

yes, Hitler did break the treaty, but we where trying to avoid the terrible mistakes of the past, as Europe was sick of war, and it had nearly bankrupted us the first time round, and was the catalyst for the fall of the Empire.

It took 8 months as we where unprepared and had to mobalise our Army. How long did it take you to mobalise for Iraq, with todays logistical and military technology? And you planned for it!

And again, this is my point. If you see someone doing a military build up that could be potentially threatening, you need to take care of it quickly. Europe had years to prepare for Hitler. They could have easilly forced him to quit the military buildup when it was still in it's infancy, and potentially saved tens of millions of lives.

Personally, I'm not looking forward to finding out if Iran would actually give a nuke to terrorists. I live in Phillidelphia, my familly lives in Washington DC, my girlfriend lives in NYC, and the rest of my familly lives in LA. A lot of familly friends died in 9/11 - I just don't want to see something 10,000 times worse then that happen. IMHO, Iran - if allowed to produce a nuclear weapon - would potentially allow it to fall into the wrong hands, I'm not willing to give them that chance.

Personally, I really hope it doesn't come to war. And if it does, I hope we can solve things with a few well placed bombs on critical targets. But I honestly don''t know if either of those will work.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
American Mad Man,

I think even God is telling you to let it go. You pretty much exemplify all that is wrong with our country: ignorance. From an argumentative point of view, your points and evidence mean absolutely nothing. For one thing, it is absolute crap to say "we supported dictators because we wanted to do the right thing!" First off, that makes no sense and is so not true. We supported the Shah for oil and then some oil. Second, how does helping somebody suppress and brutalize his own people the "right thing?" That doesn't even scratch the surface of how wrong all your arguments are. You just continue to act like America is God, we have never done anything wrong, deny anything bad we have done as liberal propaganda, throw "liberal" around some more, and when things don't go in your favor (which is always), you go for good and evil.

It's also depressing to see something proven true about America, that despite all our rhetoric, we really don't care for the rest of the world and refuse to actually learn about them. It's your choice, yes, but why do you carry out and support such ignorance?

It's apparent that you have either been brainwashed or you are just that blind and ignorant. I pity you. So until you make good points here, all we are reading is propaganda and incomprehensible rambling.

[edit on 4-12-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Wow - I'm flattered!

It's great to know you care so much about me sweatmonicaido, but please, don't pitty me. I have a great life, and *gasp* I'm not brainwashed. To borrow some words from you "sorry, I don't live to agree with you."

In fact, if you were to put me at one extreme, you would be the exact opposite extreme. You're ANTI-US bable far excedes my staunch support of the United States. And yet again, I think you are still bitter I called you a liberal - GET OVER IT.

In fact, if you had read my post that you refered to, I expressly stated that the US has done some bad things. I also stated that was during the Cold war. Minor detail, sometimes you have to pick between the lesser of two evils in the grand scheme of things.

To sum it up, if you want to talk about Iran in regard to their nuclear program and potential terrorist links - or a lack there of - let's go at it! I love a good argument as you well know. If, on the other hand, all you want to do is try to attack me (for whatever reason) I am sorry, but I'm trying to have a meaningfull conversation here.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
American Mad Man,

We supported the Shah for oil and then some oil.

[edit on 4-12-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

First point; We supported the Shah as part of the cold war against USSR, look at map. We flew many recon missions and had listening posts for elint/comm eavsdropping etc. Oil was not the impetus - at the time our fields in USA were at high prodution Ie: 1950's and 60"s oil was not an issue until the last few years of the Shah's regime and as yuo may know Carter pulled the rug out from under the Iranians.



[edit on 4-12-2004 by Phoenix]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Wow - I'm flattered!

It's great to know you care so much about me sweatmonicaido, but please, don't pitty me. I have a great life, and *gasp* I'm not brainwashed. To borrow some words from you "sorry, I don't live to agree with you."

In fact, if you were to put me at one extreme, you would be the exact opposite extreme. You're ANTI-US bable far excedes my staunch support of the United States. And yet again, I think you are still bitter I called you a liberal - GET OVER IT.

To sum it up, if you want to talk about Iran in regard to their nuclear program and potential terrorist links - or a lack there of - let's go at it! I love a good argument as you well know. If, on the other hand, all you want to do is try to attack me (for whatever reason) I am sorry, but I'm trying to have a meaningfull conversation here.

I honestly do pity you.

I never said you were brainwashed, I said either you were brainwashed or are just that ignorant. I don't care if you disagree with me, but it's apparent you have no idea what you are talking about and it sounds an awful like propaganda and stupidity. What happened to Deny Ignorance?

Bitter? (sarcastic blank stare)

Meaningful conversation? You're the only one constricting it through ignorance or simply being brainwashed (pick one, I dunno).

Originally posted by Phoenix
First point; We supported the Shah as part of the cold war against USSR, look at map. We flew many recon missions and had listening posts for elint/comm eavsdropping etc. Oil was not the impetus - at the time our fields in USA were at high prodution Ie: 1950's and 60"s oil was not an issue until the last few years of the Shah's regime and as yuo may know Carter pulled the rug out from under the Iranians.
[edit on 4-12-2004 by Phoenix]

What's your point? That it was still okay for us to support a brutal and murderous regime?

Or that the U.S. government was always thinking about the "best for the world?"

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by Phoenix
First point; We supported the Shah as part of the cold war against USSR, look at map. We flew many recon missions and had listening posts for elint/comm eavsdropping etc. Oil was not the impetus.
[edit on 4-12-2004 by Phoenix]

What's your point? That it was still okay for us to support a brutal and murderous regime?

Or that the U.S. government was always thinking about the "best for the world?"

The point is we did what was neccesary at the time to contain the USSR and yes the world was better off for it.

Go read "Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Solzinitzyn, maybe you prefer that type of world to the one we now have.

Besides the Mullahs in Iran have/ are committing the same crimes as the Shah is being accused of right now as we speak - so much for your human rights concern.

I really think ALL you are interested in is finding reason to bash the USA.

The original purpose of this thread was a discussion on Irans concealment of WMD of which there is more than ample evidence existing.

If there is one whiff of a plan by Iran to use them then they can kiss it goodbye.

If WMD unconventionally used by terrorist's and for instance isotopes are traced back - then they can kiss it goodbye.

The U.S. has enough ways of gathering electronic as well as visual information to find actionable intell if a plan is hatched.

I say if they (Mullahs) want to twist the tigers tail then they should be prepared to be bitten.

Originally posted by Phoenix

The U.S. has enough ways of gathering electronic as well as visual information to find actionable intell if a plan is hatched.

and that does reall well for the US
since most of the inteligance they get are full of *cough*

if they had enough ways of gathering enfo they wouldnt haved f****d up in iraq


[edit on 4-12-2004 by bodrul]

Originally posted by Sep

And on the supporting terrorism. If you would agree that the Mujahedin the US supported were terrorists then I would agree Iran supports terrorists.

I've got to jump in on this statement.

There is no evidence that the Mujahedin (sp) that the U.S. supported in their fight against Soviet occupation did anything other than fight in Afganistan against that very occupation. They did not set bombs off in third countries killing innocent civilians so in this respect they were freedom fighters. IE: they used military weapons in a military campaign against an organised foe, not civilians.

Ergo native Iraqi's are insurgents when engaging military targets - Iranian and other foreigners targeting civilians are terrorist's

It was much later after the first gulf war and Osama's perceived slight of mecca that certain radical elements of the "old" movement embraced terrorism as a means to political ends. Therefore they are indeed terrorist's by any definition of the word because their methods are indiscrimanate and not targeted directly against a military foe - anyone is fair game.

Iran giving money to Hamas which has a rich history of bloody civilian attacks is supporting terrorism much like Saddam did when paying money to suicide bombers families.

The line is crossed when the target switched from military to civilian.

bodrul, don't even bother talking to these guys.

They are so intrenched in the idea that America is pure goodness they say "America is great!" when you ask them what 2 + 2 is.

Originally posted by bodrul

Originally posted by Phoenix

The U.S. has enough ways of gathering electronic as well as visual information to find actionable intell if a plan is hatched.

and that does reall well for the US

since most of the inteligance they get are full of *cough*

if they had enought ways of gathering enfo they wouldnt haved f**ked up in iraq

Nice pat answer (watch going around those censors though, I would edit if I were you)

The error was in playing footsie with the UN giving Saddam - what was it 9 months to hide, move or dispose of WMD. Lets not forget all the Chemical weapons precursors just sitting in ammo dumps ready for mixture either.

Humint was lacking in Iraq due to an extremly effective secret police force. I'm leaning towords much more Humint in Iran because of a much larger opposition in place.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here but the U.S. has the ability to gather cell, microwave and landline communications at will and most likely can crack any code the Iranians come up with. Fiberoptic cables are good against eavesdropping but special forces can tap unless entire network is checked and guarded.

Something is bound to crop up.

Besides maybe there is someone in the Iranian leadership group that might not want Iran to get into a war with Isreal or the U.S., Its not a stretch of the imagination with all that oil money flowing - why mess up a good thing.

The Iranian government may not be as monolithic as some give credit here.

[edit on 4-12-2004 by Phoenix]

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
bodrul, don't even bother talking to these guys.

They are so intrenched in the idea that America is pure goodness they say "America is great!" when you ask them what 2 + 2 is.

And just what are we supposed to say?

Amerika is bad, bad ,bad and is an evil empire reaching out for world dominion - is that what you want to hear?

When Tel Aviv goes up in a nuclear firestorm is that still what you're going to want to hear?

When democratic Iraq is invaded five - ten years down the road is that what your going to want to hear.

When the persian gulf becomes an Iranian lake under a nuclear umbrella and you can no longer drive an automobile - is that still going to be what you want to hear?

If your answer is yes to any of the above then it is you who have difficulties with 2+2

Sheesh, if the US had not involved itself for the last 100 years in the wider world where the hell would you be now. Think about it - would you be speaking German, Russian or Chinese.

Phoenix
sweatmonicaIdo is kind of right all most all americans here do is go on how
powerfull and mighty the USA is and how it can do as it please's

they dont post anything rational just this nation is evil and should be taken out.
and how they will do this and that ( on groundless coments )

what do you expect people's replies to be against replies that are just plain jokes

(deny ignorance more like most imbrace ignorance)



sorry but thats i see things here and im sure some people will agree with me on that


[edit on 4-12-2004 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodrul
Phoenix
sweatmonicaIdo is kind of right all most all americans here do is go on how
powerfull and mighty the USA is and how it can do as it please's

they dont post anything rational just this nation is evil and should be taken out.
and how they will do this and that ( on groundless coments )

what do you expect people's replies to be against replies that are just plain jokes

(deny ignorance more like most imbrace ignorance)



sorry but thats i see things here and im sure some people will agree with me on that


[edit on 4-12-2004 by bodrul]

All people do is praise the US? Are you kidding me? Theres maybe 8 people on this whole site that actually stick up for America. In fact, maybe thats why we do it so much - maybe we are sick and tired of hearing the polar oposite of what you are talking about. This thread is the PERFECT example. It has very little to do with the US - it has everything to do with IRAN. But of course, EVERY terrorism thread, political thread, current events thread military thread - hell, just about EVERY THREAD IN GENERAL - gets turned into a USA bash-o-thon.

And I mean, honestly, if someone DOES say the US can take Iran - SO FREAKING WHAT? It's the truth isn't it? If you had to bet your life on if the US could defeat Irans military, which side would you take? That's what I thought.

It's like you can't even say the truth around here! What happened to deny ignorance? Hell, I'm right when I say that the US will not tolerate Iran becoming a nuclear power, yet I get flamed for it. I'm also right when I say that Iran sponsers terrorism, but that doesn't suit some peoples agendas so they try and pretend that Iran doesn't sponser terrorism.

You say I don't post anything meaningfull? Well I have a bunch of links backing up my point of view. Where are everyone elses links? HUH? There is more ration in saying that the US sees Iran as a threat and will use force to prevent her from becoming a nuclear force then there is in saying the US is evil for doing so.

Embrace ignorance indeed

Originally posted by bodrul
Phoenix
sweatmonicaIdo is kind of right all most all americans here do is go on how
powerfull and mighty the USA is and how it can do as it please's

they dont post anything rational just this nation is evil and should be taken out.
and how they will do this and that ( on groundless coments )

what do you expect people's replies to be against replies that are just plain jokes

(deny ignorance more like most imbrace ignorance)



sorry but thats i see things here and im sure some people will agree with me on that


[edit on 4-12-2004 by bodrul]

All people do is praise the US? Are you kidding me? Theres maybe 8 people on this whole site that actually stick up for America. In fact, maybe thats why we do it so much - maybe we are sick and tired of hearing the polar oposite of what you are talking about. This thread is the PERFECT example. It has very little to do with the US - it has everything to do with IRAN. But of course, EVERY terrorism thread, political thread, current events thread military thread - hell, just about EVERY THREAD IN GENERAL - gets turned into a USA bash-o-thon.

And I mean, honestly, if someone DOES say the US can take Iran - SO FREAKING WHAT? It's the truth isn't it? If you had to bet your life on if the US could defeat Irans military, which side would you take? That's what I thought.

It's like you can't even say the truth around here! What happened to deny ignorance? Hell, I'm right when I say that the US will not tolerate Iran becoming a nuclear power, yet I get flamed for it. I'm also right when I say that Iran sponsers terrorism, but that doesn't suit some peoples agendas so they try and pretend that Iran doesn't sponser terrorism.

You say I don't post anything meaningfull? Well I have a bunch of links backing up my point of view. Where are everyone elses links? HUH? There is more ration in saying that the US sees Iran as a threat and will use force to prevent her from becoming a nuclear force then there is in saying the US is evil for doing so.

Imbrace ignorance indeed

[edit on 4-12-2004 by American Mad Man]

American Mad Man
if you think i am just reffering to you then good for you
but right now good night

Originally posted by American Mad Man
And I mean, honestly, if someone DOES say the US can take Iran - SO FREAKING WHAT? It's the truth isn't it? If you had to bet your life on if the US could defeat Irans military, which side would you take? That's what I thought.

That's only one of the examples of your ignorance.

There is no denying the American war machine's power. Strongest in history. However, for you to call it the "truth" shows you really don't know more about warfare except for the terms JDAM, LGB, and LANTIRN. Ask any high-ranking military official (save Rumsfeld, he don't know jack) and they'll tell you it's not as clear-cut.

I mean, how do you fight a massive country so united and proud of their Persian race they are willing to do whatever it takes to protect it? You cannot fight an enemy like that. If I can find the link to the article, I will post it, there were wargames conducted and it concluded that war with Iran would be a disaster. Even if we used nukes. Of course, the current administration would never want you to know that.

To answer the question, if I had to bet, I would honestly bet on Iran. In Iran, everyone fights. And one more time, you can't defeat an enemy so unified and nationalistic they are willing to do anything to defend themselves. Can you say the same about America? Show me some rational reasoning.

And rational, that's also something lacking. "They are evil" is not rational thinking. Everything you say is too circumstantial and relative to ever be taken seriously. Just think about that.

But hey, since you wanna hear something good about America, America is responsible for two loves of my life, computer games and baseball.