Spiritual Reorientation 10: The Art of Life

a reply to: Bluesma

These benefits make one better equipped for exploring this world. Lots of spiritual practices have benefits which serve us well in the long run- even if they seem to be "staring the back of your eyelids".

Maybe you just need to consider long term effects rather than immediate ones...?

The same could be said about good sleep. In fact, those that do not sleep might die. Once again, it appears as if staring at the back of the eyelids has more benefit than I first assumed.

It's interesting that they will study meditation, but will not study, say, the result of exercise, or a good diet, or reading, or fresh air, or good sleep, on the brain. It's almost as if there is a bias here.

Anyways, spirituality is not about attaining personal benefits, because if it is, it reduces it to the attaining of currency and profit. If meditation is about attaining personal benefit, then we should perhaps let them acquire enough of it as they can.

a reply to: Aphorism

one could argue tht the only truly selfleess spirituality is the kind that pays no attnetion to what the self thinks or believes. your existnce is moitvated and guided b y any mind but your own.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule

Science and scholarship can lead you to see for yourself what it is you are missing out on that mystics are not. When you do see, the explosion of your reaction will be proportionate to all the resistance to it you have put up over the years. You will truly be a very powerful Superman, Clark.

Seeing involves the eyes. I can and have seen mystics. However, I have never seen a mystic use his mysticism to, say, help another human being, or to do a good deed. If inaction is all I am missing out on, then I am missing out on really nothing.

Yes, but seeing involves more than the eyes. Isn't it strange how some people can see sounds? Or taste color? Isn't it strange how, in the case of people with multiple personalities, one personality can look at a glass of orange juice and see an allergen (which their body will react to) and another personality can look at it and see a refreshing drink, which then will not cause an allergic reaction?

People see things that others can't. It doesn't make them better or worse, just different. If you want to see what mystics see, you have to become a mystic yourself. Sam Harris would say, you need to build your own telescope.

Science can show that when people DO build their own telescope, they benefit. So here I am trying to do a good deed for you, a fellow human being, by trying to help you to benefit yourself. But you can't see it.

a reply to: BlueMule

You weave a tangled web. If I wade through your metaphors, it seems you wish me to think like a mystic, since seeing involves using the eyes. I'd rather not, for out of it I find nothing of use. That is not to say that you do not find use with it, of course. I'd rather see through the eyes, rather than pretend I'm seeing something through a framework of mystic thought. But I do appreciate your gifts, if they are not indeed Trojan horses.

a reply to: BlueMule

myticism impresses me as something that makes an art out of being inconsistent. its rules rely more on the person than anything else.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule

You weave a tangled web. If I wade through your metaphors, it seems you wish me to think like a mystic, since seeing involves using the eyes. I'd rather not, for out of it I find nothing of use. That is not to say that you do not find use with it, of course. I'd rather see through the eyes, rather than pretend I'm seeing something through a framework of mystic thought. But I do appreciate your gifts, if they are not indeed Trojan horses.

If you see me weaving a tangled web, then you must be seeing with something other than your eyes. What could that be, I wonder?

You are using your capacity for symbolic thought to see beyond eyes, and that is the X-ray vision that you can use to penetrate the entirety of world religion and myth. Then you would see they all share the same skeletal structure - the monomyth.

The monomyth is the skeletal structure of world religion and myth because it reflects, in symbolic form, the psychological process of development that mystics undergo. It can be one of your guides as you build your own telescope.

I love spirituality. I am trying to defend it from those who only weaken it and make it superfluous.

The religious are the greatest nihilists, misanthropes and skeptics. Their doctrines only speak of the struggle with the world, and not the joy of it. In Solomon, everything is vanity. In Buddha, everything is impermanent and suffering. In Plato, everything is but a fleeting idea. In John, everything is dust and mud and flesh. In Schopenhauer, the world is endless strife. In Descartes, we are minds disembodied. Thus divinity and salvation is found elsewhere, or rather, nowhere, but perhaps in the words of these nihilists. What they call “love” is their hate. What they call “freedom” is their submission to an imaginary set of rules, legislated by no legislator other than the one that tyrannizes over them the most—themselves.

I got the opposite impression, but maybe I was wrong.

I don’t care to know anything about your life.

Agree with that. You assumed I live my life, how was that?... "with eyes turned inward. You are exploring only your own mind and the back of your eyelids." I was just explaining to you that you cannot possibly know anything about me, so enough with personal remarks.

What I am privy to is what you share, which so far is that you “explore” and “discover” through no exploration or discovery. What have you actually explored?

You got it all wrong and twisted; here is what I said:
"For me spirituality is looking within, a process of exploration and discovery, and I see nothing wrong with that. For others it is maybe the search for God, or a certain set of rules to live their life, or a feeling of something missing, or the need to know, a search for happiness and so on: there is no end to the list. Which one do you talk about? "

And by the way, you still didn't answer that question. Instead, from the little information you got about me you already know I am wrong.
I think i might have understand your post the wrong way; I thought you have a real basis for what you're saying and are ready for an open, honest discussion about that. Now I realize it was more a rant about spirituality in general and those who don't think like you in special.

You are telling me I am not spiritual because I do not “get it”—and that I do not “get it” simply because I disagree with you.

No. You said that about meditation, and is clear you know nothing about it:

You're sitting and closing your eyes. You're not facing anything other than your eyelids. You are speaking of non-action, or in other words, doing nothing. Is this what you are an expert at?

Sitting. That is all it amounts to. That is all you can ever accomplish. Prove me otherwise. Let me see you do something other than sit with your meditation. Film yourself if you have to.

See a pattern here? I see no logical arguments, no experience or effort to understand. From someone so knowledgeable of the spiritual ways that's pretty poor.

The spirituality you are promoting makes spirituality useless.

What is that spirituality that I promote, cause I don't remember any. All I promote is respect for other people's spirituality, superfluous or not, and a clear explanation of why do you think "yours is better than others".

It is not what I didn’t find, but what I did find. I had no expectations beyond what was promised—bliss, happiness, a “higher life”, access to “spiritual wisdom”. I found that these promises are empty.

So maybe you got unlucky; maybe the ones who promised you things were liars, maybe you didn't try hard enough, it doesn't really matter. Like I said, if a woman cheated on you, all women are cheaters; but even so you have the right to your own beliefs. It seems like you found your own spirituality, or your own way, and that' also great. I was answering your post, like many others, just show you that maybe most of your views of spirituality are biased due to misunderstanding, generalization and some personal grudge. But then again, it was just for the sake of discussion as I was under the impression that you want to discuss these things. I do not like the way you seem to prefer discussing the person instead of the idea, so at this point maybe we agree that we disagree and part in peace.

Share with me some of the practical benefits of your spirituality.

lol No way. You must stop looking for benefits, for proofs and rewards, and for proving others wrong. (funny, is not what you said in your OP?) Spirituality is a personal business, religion is the public one. Find your own way, and if you found it already then enjoy it. ( just my opinion, okay, not trying to enlighten you) But if you're looking for a "mine is bigger than yours" contest you got the wrong person.

Also, what do you actually “discover” and “explore” by looking inward? What “door” were you shown? Trying to wade through so much metaphor, cliché and analogy is tiresome. What are you actually trying to convey?

Obviously something different that you tried to find in spirituality. The point is that spirituality comes from a need inside us, from searching for something more than material world; if you don't feel the need for it there is no point for spirituality. First there is the need, then you start searching. This is not a riddle, and nobody is trying to hide anything from you. But unless you know at least what are you looking for, how would you know how to find it? You can't run around asking for others to tell you what to look for, what they have found and what benefits they have from it; then dismiss them because you searched in the same place and found nothing or it didn't give you the same benefits. What I explore has no relevance to you, just the same that some other person's meditation for you is just sitting with your eyes closed and doing nothing. So I just suggest to stop asking for others to show you, to prove it to you; you are the only one who can prove it to yourself.

Have a nice evening, and I really hope you will find what are you looking for.

whitehat makes a good point. what spirituality are you talking about misanthrope? there are many different approaches to the metaphysical.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Agree with that. You assumed I live my life, how was that?... "with eyes turned inward. You are exploring only your own mind and the back of your eyelids." I was just explaining to you that you cannot possibly know anything about me, so enough with personal remarks.

It was a response to what you shared with me:

"For me spirituality is looking within (eyes turned inward), a process of exploration and discovery (exploring your own mind), and I see nothing wrong with that.” My parenthesis.

I am simply trying to make sense of your metaphors.

And by the way, you still didn't answer that question. Instead, from the little information you got about me you already know I am wrong.

I already twice expressed what I think spirituality is.

I think i might have understand your post the wrong way; I thought you have a real basis for what you're saying and are ready for an open, honest discussion about that. Now I realize it was more a rant about spirituality in general and those who don't think like you in special.

If that is the only way you can further yourself from what I’ve written, you are entitled to that opinion. You thought I had a real basis? Why would you say this then?

“A very eloquent and well written plea, but wrong in so many aspects that I cannot even hope to cover them all.”

I am sensing some dishonesty. Whatever it takes to cover your tracks.

No. You said that about meditation, and is clear you know nothing about it:

See a pattern here? I see no logical arguments, no experience or effort to understand. From someone so knowledgeable of the spiritual ways that's pretty poor.

Once again, “you know nothing”. I’ve spent much of my life meditating. I simply do not require it. I can think and focus and breath just fine doing anything.

What sorts of feats besides sitting do you think you’re accomplishing with meditation? I sincerely wish to know and this is an honest question.

What is that spirituality that I promote, cause I don't remember any. All I promote is respect for other people's spirituality, superfluous or not, and a clear explanation of why do you think "yours is better than others".

"For me spirituality is looking within (eyes turned inward), a process of exploration and discovery (exploring your own mind), and I see nothing wrong with that.” My parenthesis.

“I see spirituality not as a weakness but as a hope that maybe there is more of this life than those material satisfactions, so I can understand the stressing to remove the focus from the material world. This life is not the final purpose. And when you finally realize that we are so much more than this material body the world is losing it's weight on you.”

So maybe you got unlucky; maybe the ones who promised you things were liars, maybe you didn't try hard enough, it doesn't really matter. Like I said, if a woman cheated on you, all women are cheaters; but even so you have the right to your own beliefs. It seems like you found your own spirituality, or your own way, and that' also great. I was answering your post, like many others, just show you that maybe most of your views of spirituality are biased due to misunderstanding, generalization and some personal grudge. But then again, it was just for the sake of discussion as I was under the impression that you want to discuss these things. I do not like the way you seem to prefer discussing the person instead of the idea, so at this point maybe we agree that we disagree and part in peace.

I hold no grudge or scorn towards my own experience or the people in them. I wouldn’t be where I am today without them.

It seems you only do not like the way I discuss the person instead of the idea, but nonetheless, it seems you enjoy the way you discuss the person instead of the idea. This is hypocrisy, and entirely suspect in my opinion.

“In the same way you use generalities about prophets, or mystics, or I'll call them for that matter "people who found the truth”.”

“Another point I want to make is that you use intellectual tools for an argument that is actually in the realm of experience; and it will never work. It's like you never tasted water; you don't know what it is.”

“You will never know until you'll actually experience the water; you may argue endlessly about it, you may find it unworthy, but how relevant that is?”

“ If it really bothers you so much then why not embark on a journey to find out the truth, no matter what that is and no matter what it takes; find out by tasting the water yourself, not talking about it.”

“There are some other things, but I will summarize it with this: in the end you are doing just the same like everybody else. I mean, your post sounds like ''stop chasing spirituality cause it will never give you happiness, do it my way to find happiness". Is not what every prophet out there is saying, my way is the real one?”

See the inconstancy here? But we can go back and forth all day. Let’s create a dialectic without the pettiness. Let’s make two opposing views one.

lol No way. You must stop looking for benefits, for proofs and rewards, and for proving others wrong. (funny, is not what you said in your OP?) Spirituality is a personal business, religion is the public one. Find your own way, and if you found it already then enjoy it. ( just my opinion, okay, not trying to enlighten you) But if you're looking for a "mine is bigger than yours" contest you got the wrong person.

There is a difference between personal benefit, and a benefit to the world and mankind. What I want to know is, how has your spirituality benefited anything other than yourself?

This is an honest question, and an attempt at a discussion.

Obviously something different that you tried to find in spirituality. The point is that spirituality comes from a need inside us, from searching for something more than material world; if you don't feel the need for it there is no point for spirituality. First there is the need, then you start searching. This is not a riddle, and nobody is trying to hide anything from you. But unless you know at least what are you looking for, how would you know how to find it? You can't run around asking for others to tell you what to look for, what they have found and what benefits they have from it; then dismiss them because you searched in the same place and found nothing or it didn't give you the same benefits. What I explore has no relevance to you, just the same that some other person's meditation for you is just sitting with your eyes closed and doing nothing. So I just suggest to stop asking for others to show you, to prove it to you; you are the only one who can prove it to yourself.

I have already proven it to myself. What I wish to understand is your reasoning, how you have arrived at your convictions. Maybe you can share an experience with me

a reply to: BlueMule

If you see me weaving a tangled web, then you must be seeing with something other than your eyes. What could that be, I wonder?

You speak of imagination without using the word imagination?

You are using your capacity for symbolic thought to see beyond eyes, and that is the X-ray vision that you can use to penetrate the entirety of world religion and myth.

You mean to imagine, right?

The monomyth is the skeletal structure of world religion and myth because it reflects, in symbolic form, the psychological process of development that mystics undergo. It can be one of your guides as you build your own telescope.

Hence, why all myths are myths.

a reply to: Aphorism

Imagination. I think you nailed it. Imagination is the lens of the telescope that Mr mule mentioned.

a reply to: Aphorism

If you stop at a stop sign, are you imagining or are you realizing what the symbol means? If you figure, "well people are just imagining that they know what that sign means" then you're going to get in an accident.

You've demonstrated time and time again your capacity to understand metaphor, symbols, poetry. Myths are metaphors.

You don't seem willing to take advantage of science or scholarship. Why is that? Why do you want to stay ignorant? ATS is about denying ignorance.

a reply to: BlueMule

the word stop is pretty clear. But metaphors don't explicitly state what they represent, and that's where imagination fits, unless there is context. Metaphysics likes to surround metaphors with other metaphors...

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: BlueMule

the word stop is pretty clear. But metaphors don't explicitly state what they represent, and that's where imagination fits, unless there is context. Metaphysics likes to surround metaphors with other metaphors...

Yes they do. You just have to take advantage of comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism scholarship. Comparativism makes it all clear, but people don't take advantage of it.

The hard sciences and the soft sciences both support the testimony of mystics of all ages. People just don't know where to look. Maybe, they don't want to know.

a reply to: BlueMule

Comparng abstract art with other abstract art doesn't make it any less abstract.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Now you're the one who is imaging they know what entire fields of academic discipline are all about. You're rationalizing because you don't really want to know. No wonder you like Aphorism so much. He is enabling your ignorance.

a reply to: BlueMule

I didnt realize there was a discipline to mysticism as an...academic field? Lol. Your welcome to think whatever you want about me. I do know that aphorim makes sense and so does whitehat, though they disagree.

a reply to: TzarChasm

As I said, comparative religion. Comparative mythology. Comparative mysticism. Make. It. All. Clear. The labyrinth is thoroughly known.

But you have to want it to be clear.

Aphorism doesn't want it to be clear. He seems to prefer ignorance. Well, whatever floats yer boat.

I don't know what to think of you. For all I know, you are a sock-puppet of Aphorism. But just in case you are open to scholarship, here is a brief introduction to comparative mythology. Episode one of The Power of Myth.

a reply to: BlueMule

Is there an original mythology? That seems to me like a logical place to start. It would at least tell us what spirituality started as.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: BlueMule

Is there an original mythology? That seems to me like a logical place to start. It would at least tell us what spirituality started as.

There is a shared spiritual heritage, a fundamental unity... if that's what you mean.

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain.

For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science." -Joseph Campbell