Propaganda and MH17

I was posting on a very un-ATS-like political site. And I made some comments about the problems I had with claims of Russian involvement in MH17. Although this site doesn't discuss conspiracy theories, the members are comfortable entertaining a wide range of views on current events. So I was expecting a rather casual discussion on the subject.

That's not what I got.

Rather, I was attacked from all sides. Everyone seemed totally convinced of Russian involvement. And clueless as to why I would even question it. They had no facts (strange for this site) but they clearly had strong emotions.

I was initially puzzled. But slowly it sunk in. Most people on this site are older than me. They're baby boomers. People who were indoctrinated since childhood in Cold War propaganda. And it appears current anti-Russian propaganda coming from the US government and the MSM has reactivated their Cold War paranoia. It has thrown off their sense of judgement and keyed up their emotions.

It reminded me just how effective propaganda can be. And how it activates emotions and clouds judgement. For this reason, it is critically important to view news dispassionately and base your analysis on the facts presented.

I'm curious about the strategies other ATSers use to cut through propaganda. Evidence you see of propaganda in the MH17 story. And your general thoughts on the dangers of propaganda at this time in history. Especially its role in expanding war and violence. Perhaps even to the point of WW3.

We can talk about Russian propaganda too. But I think it's more valuable to discuss the propaganda aimed at us in the west.

I hope we can avoid this thread becoming a discussion of responsibility in MH17. There are plenty of threads for that. This is about the propaganda surrounding the event.

a reply to: Moresby

Losers in this plane crash: Malaysia and Russia
Winners: Ukraine (they've got international attention now) and Israel (the international community isn't focused on them anymore).

Good Idea!
We are in the point of history where neuroscience is used to create certain range of emotions and mass hysteria
Please tell me: How coincidental is that : Just before this whole disaster happened facebook conducted research on the emotions, they got their results, now I see certain media group is using those results to direct the public opinion...
How weird is that? huh?

a reply to: Moresby

Blocking out propaganda is done by lengthening the amount of time you process the scenario.

In cases like this, you may have to read everything you can get your hands on for several months. The pattern of the true substance will tend to be more resilient than propaganda, which often sums to zero, like white noise. After an extended period of reading and suspending belief, you will be left with something apparent or something like a "gut feeling" which arises sub-consciously.

This is the kernel of belief that you then start to self-test against context. Time and suspending belief are the keys.

First project: Obama is a Muslim. True or False?

I usually take notice of who the finger is pointing at ,and become suspicious that it may just be propaganda .Far too often they have concluded what would be impossible in such a short time frame .Then I take note if they are parroting others in MSM . Then reflecting on some of the in correct reporting they have done and never correcting it but always dragging it forward into the next level . The western MSM for instance never talks about the cou in Kiev .They still claim that Russia has invaded . Both of these things are something that underlines the story of Ukraine up to this point . If Russia did invade then surely there must be a date in which they did .

I am a baby boomer but I never bot into the cold war crap we were given .But then again I have fond memories of the 1972 series we had with the Russians and can remember some of the brutality inflicted on them on the ice .They were beautiful to watch ,and if the NHL had not hit them hard it would have been a different outcome . Of coarse at the time it wasn't the big bad Russians , it was those wimp Russians cant play real hockey . a reply to: Moresby

a reply to: Moresby
They (msm) usually lead into it with words and phrases like;

It is believed that, or, unconfirmed sources indicate...officials at the wh,

I expect my peanut butter served on wheat, yet, I know it's on white.

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: Moresby

Blocking out propaganda is done by lengthening the amount of time you process the scenario.

In cases like this, you may have to read everything you can get your hands on for several months. The pattern of the true substance will tend to be more resilient than propaganda, which often sums to zero, like white noise. After an extended period of reading and suspending belief, you will be left with something apparent or something like a "gut feeling" which arises sub-consciously.

Those are excellent strategies. And extending processing time backwards through history is helpful as well.

The very first question I always ask myself with any news story is WHY am I hearing about this? There are so many sides to this story and so many pieces of evidence that there's no way we can possibly hear about all of it. For every new headline, I have to wonder why am I hearing about this particular story, and what I am not hearing about.

originally posted by: cleverhans
The very first question I always ask myself with any news story is WHY am I hearing about this? There are so many sides to this story and so many pieces of evidence that there's no way we can possibly hear about all of it. For every new headline, I have to wonder why am I hearing about this particular story, and what I am not hearing about.

Yes, a great place to start.

Why am I hearing about THIS STORY rather than the countless others available?

And why am I only hearing about it from this set of perspectives?

originally posted by: loveguy
a reply to: Moresby
They (msm) usually lead into it with words and phrases like;

It is believed that, or, unconfirmed sources indicate...officials at the wh,

I expect my peanut butter served on wheat, yet, I know it's on white.

As soon as you hear "believed that" or "unconfirmed" your BS meter should be going off as it simply means, "yeah, we're speculating to at least bump up ratings." They may even be doing it as direct propaganda, after all we know from historical records that CIA management was placed into all the major newspapers and TV stations.

Critical thinking and patience is so important, take time, BS smells different than rosebuds of truth. Propaganda is like a chocolate coated turd, looks like chocolate, smells like chocolate, but when you bite into it, taste and smell the inside, you know pretty fast it's a big 'ole turd.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: Moresby

Here is a good example of propaganda;

Obama: Malaysian jet shoot-down an 'outrage of unspeakable proportion'

Obama: Malaysian jet shoot-down an 'outrage of unspeakable proportion'
From CNN.com

"President Barack Obama said Friday that the Malaysia Airlines plane that crashed in Ukraine was shot down in an "outrage of unspeakable proportion." He identified one American who died in the crash as Quinn Lucas Schansman.

He also said that pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have received a "steady flow" of arms and training from Russia, including anti-aircraft weapons. He called for a "credible international investigation" into the shooting down of the plane.

The President called for an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine between the Kiev government and pro-Russian rebels in eastern regions so that an international investigation can proceed with no tampering of evidence.

A senior U.S. diplomat pointed the finger Friday at pro-Russian rebels in the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine, an act that killed 298 people.

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council that the plane was "likely downed by a surface-to-air missile ... operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine." If pro-Russian separatists are responsible for shooting down the plane with a missile, investigators can't rule out the possibility that Russia offered help to operate the system, she said..."

From Wes at CollapseNet

Has the U.S. finally found a justification for getting mixed up in the Ukraine? I don't think so, at least, not yet. A few more "acts of terrorism" from the Russian-backed separatists and that might change fast, however. - Wes

Here's another one with much of the same information from AOL.

It appears all the western MSM outlets are pumping the same propaganda, probably as an attempt to reinforce the meme by constant inundation.

Cheers - Dave

So, what "facts" can be ascertained from this event?...and what are their sources?

A plane crashed in the Ukraine.

The End.

originally posted by: jrflipjr
So, what "facts" can be ascertained from this event?...and what are their sources?

A plane crashed in the Ukraine.

The End.

Exactly.

And it's wonderful how true facts shed hyperbole like a duck sheds water.

i caN'T seem to start a new thread but has anyone thought of all the sevens lately mh370 mh17 on 7/17/2014 and siri said that the gates of hates opening 7/27/2014

a reply to: jrflipjr
Precise. It's always interesting to see what claims rise the soonest and how politicians react. Media enlarges those viewpoints willingly. And every sheeple believes something an intelligence agency helpfully 'leaks'... All so suspicious. Now there's journalists on the ground and approaching, hearing different stories and claims from different groups around the crash site. Then gradually the propaganda dilutes, gets refocused and 'thorough investigation' takes place. This will take so long that every trace of truth, which really has been present amongst the first white noise of propganda, is long gone and we'll have to wait months or years for same vague claim they call a 'result'...

I always take every scenario in account, and try to discern what seems plausible and what not...and most important: I shut off the tv soon enough to not get brainwashed by the highly emotional and gov driven msm...same thing for internet, where the majority of propaganda is...the truth is not here on the www

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: Moresby

Blocking out propaganda is done by lengthening the amount of time you process the scenario.

First project: Obama is a Muslim. True or False?

Don't be fooled here, this isn't this simple ... "Obama is a Muslim: True or False". There is no true or false in that statement, there are arguements to suggest both sides.

To block out propaganda, you do not "read" and "read" and "read". Just because somebody wrote something, doesn't mean it's correct or accurate. Just like the question above, wether Obama is a Muslim or not. TO an American, this question is obvious. He's NOT. To an Obama hater, it's probably something to bash him with, to call him a Muslim, etc. Both sides of the answer, are equially biased. Equally much a propaganda.

If you want to weed out the propaganda, you should start with what every Jewish child is to learn, as far as I know. It's what is said, to distinguish men, from golems.

To see the propaganda, you need to flip the coin and see the other side. And it isn't something that is simple, or easy ... my take is that perhaps 1% of the human race can, the rest ... can't, ever. It's something you only learn through hardship, but was a part of the English academy a century ago, when it was at it's top.

You must learn, to argue the other side ... to see every angle of both sides of the argument.

I AM a boomer technically just a REAL young one Dad adopted me in secret when he was in his 30s in 1960.
At a gues I would say there is about ...70% of all media is state produced. The rest are all profit driven somewhere the truth is OBFUSCATED so WE have to break it down.

Is Russia behind this? I don't know.

Have the majority of Americans focused their attention away from Benghazi, Bowe Bergdahl, BLM land grabs, IRS scandal, NSA spying, drought seriously reducing food supply, paperwork euthanasia of veterans, gang violence threatening the safety of millions, and the influx of many thousand illegals overwhelming our limited resources?

Who stands to benefit the most from this should be considered before buying into any official story. We will only see and hear about the things they WANT us to know...and believe.

originally posted by: nugget1
Who stands to benefit the most from this should be considered before buying into any official story. We will only see and hear about the things they WANT us to know...and believe.

A nugget of wisdom from Nugget1.

And one that seems lost on a lot of people. The people at the other site that I mentioned in the OP seemed to base their belief on Russian involvement on the fact that it's just the kind thing Russians do.

When you start quantifying countries that way you'll most likely the victim of manipulation through propaganda.

Anything could have happened... I don't usually believe anything the media says.
A Russian militia group does sound like the most believable outcome.
They probably didn't know how to work the technology as well as they should have.
Another question i have is, how did they know it was a Malaysian airline and not a Russian one?
They just cant look up and identify it, this plane was high as hell.
Honestly, i think it was a mistake. Doesn't changed the fact that innocent civilians/children were killed.