MYSTERIOUS ANCIENT CONSTRUCTIONS

originally posted by: skalla
I'm demonstrating that you can work granite with other stones and that it will not burst to pieces like you maintain. It's not easy, but it is simple. No need to get your knickers in a twist.

he demonstrated to be able to create roughly egg shaped stone object with no straight edges whatsoever, showing cracks even tho that egg-shape is pretty resistant to fracture.
try beating on the edge of a granite object with another blunt-stone object.
its not the problem to remove material using brute force, but with brute force you cannot work out contours like that.

IF anything your link prooves that it CANNOT be replicated that way.
show me a perfectly square object with perfectly polished surface he made that way, or your whole argument only serves the "pyramidiots".

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
Here is a simple site with some overview of stone working techniques, at least those used in Egypt.

www.oocities.org...
you need a downward force of ~20kn to achieve a similar result, prolly even more to end up with toolmarks THAT big per revolution.
yeah pay attention to the fancy lines surrounding the stuff YOU brought up as argument.
head-shakingly dissapointing if not absurd. next time ask someone into maschiening.

Offline there is wealth of information on the topic, get ye to a library and away from yon interwebs full of incredulity..!

the only incredible thing here is people believing thseese results could be achieved with primitive tools.
go to an engineering class at your faculty and show thise guys some of those pics, youd be suprised.

A decent book on the topic: Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology: Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt, Denys A. Stocks (Google books might have some pages to preview on it)

www.youtube.com...
maybe you would want to see what an engineer, instead of an egyptologist with no clue how stuff is actually built, has to say about this.
that is one major argument: why in the heck to you listen to egyptologists, when a frickin engineer is telling you "that cannot be!"?
blind, ignorant obedience, or good payment by esowatch?

originally posted by: Harte
What exactly is mysterious here?
Harte

I think this is a fascinating video. The construction technique may not itself be a mystery, but like so many other places which have been abandoned, the mystery is who built these structures and why they abandoned them. Anything made of stone would have required thousands of hours of construction so it would have been a terrible waste of effort if they just abandoned them.

What would this place have been like at the time it was abandoned? Did the people just leave, were they nomadic and this was their Summer retreat, or were they attacked and kidnapped, or was there a plague that killed everyone?

originally posted by: Dolour

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
a reply to: JamesTB
May want to pick up a book or two on ancient stone working techniques before resorting to incredulity. I think you would be amazed at just what you can do with a pound stone or hammer stone, and all the other tools they had at their disposal.

part of my education was material science.
one thing i know from that is that if you pound a brittle material like granite, itll burst to bits.
ANY tool used for pounding in ANY way, would NOT be able to shape granite blocks.
this can ONLY be achieved by chip removal.

Yeah, sorry but as already stated those are the most classic and recognisable of hammer-stone marks, widely seen on megalithic sites.

absolutely not, they show drilling marks with tremendous gain per revolution, obvious milling and sawing marks etc...
are you into material science somehow, wich enables you to actually distinquish toolmarks?

The reason for them is simple - as a hammer you choose a harder stone than that which you are shaping for obvious reasons

you DO know that granite is far harder than the tools used?
wtf you think why i linked the wikipage for mohs scale?
MAYBE so even a guy like you who isnt into the topic can look up some reasonable?

Pounding out stone works, I have done so both in Egypt at the quarry site of Shellal and at Rapa Nui's Rano Raraku (much easier a much softer stone) We were verifying the work of Heyderdahl which he noted in his book Aku Aku.

It works fine but on the uninitiated you need to the find the proper ratio of force versus jarring of your shoulder muscles.

originally posted by: Dolour

Sorry you are completely wrong why are you making false statements - is this some form of trolling?

originally posted by: Hanslune

Pounding out stone works, I have done so both in Egypt at the quarry site of Shellal and at Rapa Nui's Rano Raraku (much easier a much softer stone) We were verifying the work of Heyderdahl which he noted in his book Aku Aku.

It works fine but on the uninitiated you need to the find the proper ratio of force versus jarring of your shoulder muscles.

and where is this object you created that way, with tollerances of less than 100th of an inch, featuring perfect angles, now?
i dont think you understand what it takes to shape any object with that kind of precision.
the human hand, without any screw threat leading the tool, is NOT able to work work that precisely.

Sorry you are completely wrong why are you making false statements - is this some form of trolling?

ok, what kind of education do you have in terms of manufacturing stuff?
you allready asked your engineering buddies within those last 5minz? wow that was fast(and darn exhaustive and all-spanning considering the TREMENDOUS ammount of time you invested).

an archeologist defending the rediculous story tought at school, with arguments totally invalid.
what a BIG suprise, lol.

Not sure why some are getting so worked up about this particular topic.

It's hardly life and death. Interesting? No doubt.

The snide little comments will stop. Now.

originally posted by: Dolour

originally posted by: Hanslune

Pounding out stone works, I have done so both in Egypt at the quarry site of Shellal and at Rapa Nui's Rano Raraku (much easier a much softer stone) We were verifying the work of Heyderdahl which he noted in his book Aku Aku.

It works fine but on the uninitiated you need to the find the proper ratio of force versus jarring of your shoulder muscles.

and where is this object you created that way, with tollerances of less than 100th of an inch, featuring perfect angles, now?
i dont think you understand what it takes to shape any object with that kind of precision.
the human hand, without any screw threat leading the tool, is NOT able to work work that precisely.

So you accept that your previous statements about the effectiveness of pounding are incorrect. That rock pounding actually works?

Actually I can say with some certainly that you have no idea how they did it and therefore make up statements from incredulity as if it has some impact, it doesn't. Since by the examples of your temperament displayed here anything; evidence or comment I make will be automatically denied what is the point of doing so? lol

So instead tell us how they did it since you seem to know they didn't do it the way we think and have evidence for.

originally posted by: Hanslune
So you accept that your previous statements about the effectiveness of pounding are incorrect. That rock pounding actually works?

you can smash both objects and they will likely break. you can use that to shape a stone axe, but this is far far far from shaping it into a SPECIFIC shape you wanted.
the moment you try to cut a square out of the block is where it doesent work anymore, coz there'd be parts breaking off wich you didnt intend.
especially straight edges are basically impossible to achieve with beating on it...
and whats with inside corners? you have any clue how difficult it is to get an inner radius correct?

ofc you can BREAK anything using brute force.
were not talking primitive stone-age tools tho, but astonishingly accurate sarcophagi etc that would hardly be able to be built using modern maschienes!

Actually I can say with some certainly that you have no idea how they did it and therefore make up statements from incredulity as if it has some impact, it doesn't.

particulary true, i have no clue what means were used(i for example have no clue how the potential maschiene was driven, and i do not speculate about it), BUT i can tell you what would definetly not have worked.

Since by the examples of your temperament displayed here anything; evidence or comment I make will be automatically denied what is the point of doing so? lol

all those arguments come from "mainstream archeologists" who completely ignore the claims of guys actually into building stuff that it could NOT be achieved with primitive tools.
yet they make all kindsa fancy pictures of slaves using chissels etc.
how does that proove anything when everything you find in a table book(is that even the proper term in english?) contains material-specific values that totally exclude the propability of it being hand-crafted?

So instead tell us how they did it since you seem to know they didn't do it the way we think and have evidence for.

again, i dont know HOW the maschiene looked, HOW it worked or by WHAT it was driven.
but i CAN tell you that theese objects feature toolmarks wich you see on stuff thats been maschiened nowadays, and that the degree of accuracy by FAR exceeds the capabilities of even the most gifted masons.

Well..

from the same You Tuber..


1 of 8 videos Showing Similarity's of the Ancient World

Here is the First One ..

www.youtube.com...

NEFILIM Anunnaki 1/8


Yeah YA ,,, Nephilim , Anunnaki CiV Type 3/4 Deity, Entity, Gods... Demi Gods, Angels.. Etc...

Tho we may Never Know How some are Created as we BARELY have the Technology ( Our Way of Thinking ) to Reconstruct what they did 2,000 to 10,000+ Years Ago... Just maybe Humans Were Super Humans Before and a Little After The Deluge / Antediluvian Time Line ...


Just a Thought ....







Pyramids from around the World Similar Structures Through Out Time


We See Building Similarity's in Different Locations To Oceans Apart

What about Similar Artifacts?


Have a Look ,,!

Artefacts, Atlantis and the route to the sea
www.atlantisbolivia.org...

a reply to: Dolour

It would appear that you have been misled by Dunn or one of his accolades.

So if I understand your view of ancient history it is this:

Humans had high tech machinery and only used it, for thousands of years, in various places on the planet, separated in time by thousands of years, with other places to shape stone, and left absolutely no trace of the development or building of such high technology while at the same time using far cruder methods to make weapons, utensils and everything else in their culture....to the point of their not using the high technology they had even to save their cultures from enemy attack.

...and at the same time leaving extensive traces of working stone by the methods identified by archaeologists.

Puzzling eh...lol

a reply to: Wolfenz

If you wanted to built a structure that people could see and be impressed by or to allow as many people as possible to witness a ceremony at the top what type structure would you build?

You left out that that nearly every culture created a knife, a spear, an awl, etc does that mean they had a common cultural ancestor?

Humans often create the same solution to the same problem other humans have - without ever having met.

97% of history isn't lost we have obtained a limited and selective view of it and understand the basics of its flow - pending further developments and finds. As time goes on we will sharpen our understanding of the past.

I'm wondering if that place with the tumbled blocks is Carthage? the scenery look a bit 'north African' to me, Roman historians have written that the place was destroyed after the Punic wars I think they were called?

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: Wolfenz

If you wanted to built a structure that people could see and be impressed by or to allow as many people as possible to witness a ceremony at the top what type structure would you build?

You left out that that nearly every culture created a knife, a spear, an awl, etc does that mean they had a common cultural ancestor?

Humans often create the same solution to the same problem other humans have - without ever having met.

97% of history isn't lost we have obtained a limited and selective view of it and understand the basics of its flow - pending further developments and finds. As time goes on we will sharpen our understanding of the past.

If you wanted to built a structure that people could see and be impressed by or to allow as many people as possible to witness a ceremony at the top what type structure would you build?

Here is were you begin to Fail ...

I see your Point's ...

Similar Structures Similar Building Methods Ocean Apart ... To Millennium Ages Apart I said (( SIMILAR ))

You May have to look around Turkey Iraq Iran to Bolivia Peru & Easter Island to See it ..

You left out that that nearly every culture created a knife, a spear, an awl, etc does that mean they had a common cultural ancestor?

Well hell yeah in A way ... Start Spreading the New's .... Some Teacher Traveler , Trader or Sailor a Type of Connection Was there a Inverter of the Paper Clip Yup there was .. That started it Off to the many types of paper Clips Today ... Well Here what I did Left Out.. Compare the Laplander s aka The SAMI People To The Native American Canadian Cree Indians...( which Im Part of ) Compare Similar Structures like the Long Houses of Norseman aka Viking to Iraquios Mohawk Native Americans ( Which I am also Part Of ) Oceans Apart but Some how a Connection of Similar Culture.. as in CONTACT! with one Another for the SAMI and CREE But Ancient Culture and Even RACE Yes I said it RACE!! you may Look on that too the Different DNA they Have !! Yet they are not Related in DNA just Their Culture ... Tho they do have a Uncanny Resemblance to each other and also the way they Speak in Dialect, let alone the Same Culture Life Style yet not Genetically..

You See... the key Words Here is Travel, Trading aka the Sales Man, and Communication,!

Humans often create the same solution to the same problem other humans have - without ever having met.

The Simplistic Basic Solution you mean... not the Complex as Determined here in this Discussion... The Basics of Figuring things Out... Unless there is Some one They have Seen Observed to give them the Start ... the Push, Boost

97% of history isn't lost we have obtained a limited and selective view of it and understand the basics of its flow - pending further developments and finds. As time goes on we will sharpen our understanding of the past.

HUH yes it is Lost , unless your talking about Petra glyphs and Cave paintings that are Claimed to be 30thousand to 40thousand years old .. earliest recorded claimed Written history is by the Sumerians and Ancient India tho there may be older writing's as I found out that on Easter island there is Hieroglyphs Striking similar to Ancient Pakistan Hieroglyphs..

I tend to Think There were Ancient Trade Routes from the old World to the New

Unfortunately we Lost the Library of Alexandria in a few Major Fires that Could Explain the Ancient Mysteries of Ancients..

originally posted by: Wolfenz

I see your Point's ...

Similar Structures Similar Building Methods Ocean Apart ... To Millennium Ages Apart I said (( SIMILAR ))

You May have to look around Turkey Iraq Iran to Bolivia Peru & Easter Island to See it ..

See what exactly that has not been imaged already? I have been to Turkey, Iran and EI, but I'm not getting your point.

Deleted above a long discussion, if you have evidence of said comparison please share the one that you think is most solid.

HUH yes it is Lost , unless your talking about Petra glyphs and Cave paintings that are Claimed to be 30thousand to 40thousand years old .. earliest recorded claimed Written history is by the Sumerians and Ancient India tho there may be older writing's as I found out that on Easter island there is Hieroglyphs Striking similar to Ancient Pakistan Hieroglyphs..

We can obtain information on the cultures before writing by a number of archaeological, DNA, and other methods, they tell us a great deal about those people and their environment, while not as valuable as writing for determining what people thought it does tell us somethings about what they did and how they did it.

I tend to Think There were Ancient Trade Routes from the old World to the New

Technically correct as people traded and moved between Siberia and Alaska for thousands of years but I think you mean trade from Europe the ME and southern Asia and Africa to the Americas, while this theory is popular no evidence has been found to support regular trade routes, what is possible is sporadic unintentional visits that left little or had no historical importance.

Unfortunately we Lost the Library of Alexandria in a few Major Fires that Could Explain the Ancient Mysteries of Ancients..

The ancient had the library for a long time and many people visited it but no one noted these mysteries, you might want to look up the Pinakes which is a summary of what was in the Library of Alexandria. You can find the links below

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Harte
What exactly is mysterious here?
If you want to merely recommend a video, why don't you just do that on YouTube?
Here, we prefer discussion, not television.

originally posted by
Dolour
really nice!
did you see the wavelike toolmarks on some of this stuff? :p
similar to what we see here
looks pretty much like a milling cutter was at work.

The marks in your pic are the result of pounding stones gouging out material. That's how stone was quarried if it wouldn't cleave along straight planes. For example, granite vs. limestone, which actually breaks off in blocks and can be split because of that fact.

Harte

Well firstly this looks pretty mysterious to me -

s27.postimg.org...

I can't imagine who would do something like this and for what purpose? Maybe you can enlighten me ....

A purpose is almost always speculation, but your pic comes from the underground city in Tatlarin Village Turkey.

The openings you see were carved out of tuff, an exceedingly soft stone comprised of volcanic ash.

Could've dug that out with a stick.

Harte

originally posted by: Dolour

originally posted by: Harte

The marks in your pic are the result of pounding stones gouging out material. That's how stone was quarried if it wouldn't cleave along straight planes.

thats really illogical, you wouldnt get ANY kind of pattern, but a throughoutly rough shape.
whats with the wavelike structure? how could manually beating poundingstones vs the wall create theese patterns?

The scalloped shapes are the places where the pounding stones pounded out the quarried stone. They're all over Egyptian granite quarries, as are the pounding stones they used. Scattered everywhere around the site.
IIRC, over 200 pounding stones have been found at Aswan. Could be 100. They fit the grooves. Pound it down to grit, move forward, pound it down, move forward, etc.

originally posted by: Dolour

For example, granite vs. limestone, which actually breaks off in blocks and can be split because of that fact.

en.wikipedia.org...
they didnt have any means of shaping theese blocks due to the lack of sturdy metals.
its one thing to break off one rough piece, but something compeltely different if you wanna maintain 90° angels...
grab a piece of wood, an angle bracket and a rasp.
if you manage to get the surfaces even close to 90° to each other im impressed.
note that this is a soft material, and modern tools, youll still most liekly fail without the aid of modern maschinery.
leave alone getting this stuff right to a 100th of an inch with primitive tools.

Sorry, no. It's been shown in modern times that it can be done with bronze slabbing saws and sand abrasive.
Fine details were done with (again) pounders then finished off with rubbing stones. Limestone, BTW, VERY often breaks along perpendicular planes.

originally posted by: Dolourdont underestimate how freakin difficult it is to get those angles correct in relation to each other.
thats one of the things they force you to do during metal-working hours.
it took me well over 40 hours to get a SINGLE piece of 20x20x15cm right, not imagine millions of such "materpieces".
you dont apply that degree of accuracy unless its nessesary, or the maschiene is on its own working with this accuracy.
one thing E-V-E-R-Y engineer will tell you is that you "dont work more precise than you HAVE to"!

Exactly what precision are you referring to?

originally posted by: Dolour
allso, how would ancient people have moved things like the 1200ton obelisk in assuan?

You should note that they didn't move it. If they had completed it, it would be the largest obelisk they ever made.

Still, not too heavy for a barge.

originally posted by: Dolour
ramses statue? collossi of memnon? perfectly(!! so flat our BEST maschienes couldt best it) polished 100ton sarcophagi in the serapheum?

The colossi are made of blocks. They are not carved from some single massive stone.
Ramesses' statue? Which one?
The Egyptians were accomplished at stonework and produced some pieces that were polished to a much higher degree than the work in the Serapheum to which you refer here. I dispute your claim about what "our best machines" are capable of, though I know you are just parroting.

Harte

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
a reply to: Dolour
A decent book on the topic: Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology: Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt, Denys A. Stocks (Google books might have some pages to preview on it)

Entire book pdf. link

Harte

originally posted by: Dolour

originally posted by: skalla
Granite has no internal structure and will not burst into bits when you pound it, or every hammer stone I use when working flint would be useless.

quoted from wiki: "When used in materials science, it is generally applied to materials that fail when there is little or no evidence of plastic deformation before failure"

Each time a crystal shatters in granite, that's your failure you're talking about. IOW, when the pounder hits.
It is what I called "grit" earlier.

Granite is not some homogeneous mass. There is quartz, felspar and several other forms of stone in it.

What you say about brittleness is true, but it only matters when the entire piece is made of that brittle material.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

You know, you've brought up a lot of interesting things in relation to rocks. One can't help but wonder if you've got some experience with geology.

You're right about limestone and marble, by the way. And granite, interestingly enough. I don't know if you mentioned it, but rocks that are composed of smaller mineral grains will often show characteristics of those minerals at the rock level. (Small behavior is expressed in larger rock.)

So why the perpendicular breaks in limestone? Calcite, the major mineral species in limestone, has rhombohedral cleavage. In fact, it has "perfect" rhombohedral cleavage, meaning it demonstrates the characteristic consistently. It's also got a nifty characteristic of pressure twinning, or rearranging the crystal structure in response to pressure. (You can do it fairly simply to, applying a razorblade to a calcite crystal and pressing down with one's hand would do it. Do it, it's fun.) Also also, calcite is a soft mineral, a 3 on Moh's hardness scale. Even common sand (quartz at a 7) would cut right through it.

Granite is trickier, as I think it has much more to do with twinning planes. Feldspars have a tendency to twin, and break upon this twinning surface, leaving a very flat plane. This is common in coarser rocks, but it shows in most granites with feldspar grains that are visible. (It occurs on a microscopic level, too. )

As for grinding these hard granites (minerals ranging from 6-7 on average...), it might take a bit more than sand... Luckily, I've seen some maps of emerald (beryl at 8) and harder minerals known to be in Egypt. I don't know if the Egyptians used these resources for cutting, but I recently used some beryl to grind down some moonstone (plagioclase feldspar from granite). It worked pretty well and only took me a few hours. Don't ask me why...

originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: Harte

You know, you've brought up a lot of interesting things in relation to rocks. One can't help but wonder if you've got some experience with geology.

What I know about this small subset of geology is what I've learned by myself over the years.

I'm educated as a Mechanical Engineer.

originally posted by: hydeman11As for grinding these hard granites (minerals ranging from 6-7 on average...), it might take a bit more than sand... Luckily, I've seen some maps of emerald (beryl at 8) and harder minerals known to be in Egypt. I don't know if the Egyptians used these resources for cutting, but I recently used some beryl to grind down some moonstone (plagioclase feldspar from granite). It worked pretty well and only took me a few hours. Don't ask me why...

Sand is silcon dioxide. It's basically quartz and is harder than most emerald.
The crystals you are trying to smooth when you are smoothing granite with another stone are also quartz.

A mineral is capable of abrading itself. In fact, a very high level of polish on a stone polished this way requires a very hard stone surface to take the polish.

Hand polished diorite is a good example of this.

It may interest you to know that there has been some evidence, both ancient and in modern recreations, that supports the use of fire along with the pounding carving and smoothing of granite. The fire sets up temperature differentials that cause the crystals to crack on and near the surface, facilitating the shaping or carving process. Particularly useful when carving seemingly razor-sharp glyphs into granite obelisks.

Harte