Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

While there are various questions that have already emerged from what was supposed to be Ukraine's "slam dunk" proof confirming Russian rebel involvement in today's MH-17 tragedy, perhaps one just as gaping question emerges when one looks at what is clearly an outlier flight path in today's final, and tragic, departure of the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777.

Perhaps the best visualization of what the issue is, comes from Vagelis Karmiros who has collated all the recent MH-17 flight paths as tracked by Flightaware and shows that while all ten most recent paths pass safely well south of the Donetsk region, and cross the zone above the Sea of Azov, it was only today's tragic flight that passed straight overhead Donetsk.

Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

In an amazing collation of flight information by Vagelis Karmiros, from information recorded by Flightware.... We can now see that the previous ten flights were routed AROUND Donetsk.... and Malaysian Flight MH 17.... routed directly over the hot zone... Assuming that this is correct, this would put a hole in the Ukrainian story and bring up the question of who and why was this flight redirected...

With the new story on the Guardian which shows that GCHQ (and likely other spy agencies US, Russia, China, Japan, Germany and France) can control data and information flow between points even man in the middle attacks, we can wonder if there are connections between these data points and the redirect... There is not enough information yet... but it is an interesting time to be on ATS in solving the puzzle of the "Real Politik" as it unfolds.
www.theguardian.com...

In the next Zerohedge story... we find the Youtube release of the account that the Ukraine portrays...
www.zerohedge.com...

There was a no fly zone from ~32,000ft-ground in that area, but planes were allowed to fly over. Most airlines chose not too since it was recommend other routes were safer. Though it was still considered acceptable in safety limits regarding the war zone.

It's believed Malaysia Air chose to fly above the no fly zone, directly overhead because they wanted to save in fuel costs. They are well known for not fuelling their aircraft anymore than needed, so it all boils down to them being cheap bastards. Similar to the last one they lost which had little extra fuel to go beyond it's intended flying time.

“The aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (about 10,000m or 33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar,” Eurocontrol was quoted as saying.

“This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 (9,700m, or 32,000 feet) but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.”

The Daily Mail reported that the airspace flight MH17 was flying in when it was shot down was not restricted.

But, the UK daily’s website said airlines had been warned about the potential dangers.

Quoting the International Transport Association, it said the Geneva-based group’s initial assessment was that the airspace MH17 was travelling through was “not subject to restrictions”.

The Daily Mail said it was believed the MAS pilots had ignored several warnings to avoid the airspace over Ukraine because it was a shorter route and flying over the Ukraine instead of diverting north or south would save fuel.

theindependent.sg...

a reply to: boncho

Well....yes.. That seems a logical conclusion given the information that you present.... but, but then it won't be a rootin- tootin conspiracy now will it.... Boncho, please stay off this channel and at least leave a star and a flag....

We can't just blame this one on human nature and a cheap skate airline...

Also, one hole in the MAS shorter route theory.... the plot of land we are talking about flying around would have taken the pilot only 100 miles South from his directly over the attack zone flight... not really a big savings considering the tangent that he is flying on with such vast distances....

a reply to: R_Clark

If it was diverted it would be recorded on the black box and come up in subsequent investigations. Whether or not conspiracies are happening, some hypothesized are simply impossible because there are too many checks and balances in place for something as blatant as such.

a reply to: boncho

I was being sarcastic.. though, you seemed to answer as though I was not.
and yes, of course it would come out from the black box... now said to be in Moscow..

a reply to: boncho

So, how much fuel did he save not flying 100 miles South on a 12k mile trip from Amsterdam to KL?

originally posted by: R_Clark
a reply to: boncho

So, how much fuel did he save not flying 100 miles South on a 12k mile trip from Amsterdam to KL?

I have no idea. It's not so much the cost per se though as it is cost + weight. When you add how distance to a flight the amount of fuel you need increases the total weight of the plane, therefore requiring more fuel. The lighter the flight, the less fuel needed.

It's obviously not that much of a savings if the other airlines were not willing to risk it. Just pointing out the obvious.

All of this was in line with what was disseminated to the public shortly before and long past. MA was known for being cheap on fuel (having policies in line with that.) and the rebels announced 20 mins before MH-15 went down that they shot down a commercial/military jet, then heard about MH15 and said, "oops", "uh, yeah we think Ukraine shot that one down..."

a reply to: R_Clark

LOL. That's what this little thread deserves. I nice LOL.

originally posted by: boncho

originally posted by: R_Clark
a reply to: boncho

So, how much fuel did he save not flying 100 miles South on a 12k mile trip from Amsterdam to KL?

I have no idea. It's not so much the cost per se though as it is cost + weight. When you add how distance to a flight the amount of fuel you need increases the total weight of the plane, therefore requiring more fuel. The lighter the flight, the less fuel needed.

It's obviously not that much of a savings if the other airlines were not willing to risk it. Just pointing out the obvious.

All of this was in line with what was disseminated to the public shortly before and long past. MA was known for being cheap on fuel (having policies in line with that.) and the rebels announced 20 mins before MH-15 went down that they shot down a commercial/military jet, then heard about MH15 and said, "oops", "uh, yeah we think Ukraine shot that one down..."

The supposed intercepted conversation showing rebels did it is only the latest in a series of intercepted conversations showing direct Russian involvement that have turned out to be fabricated. Ukraine does not have the capability to intercept phone conversations of the FSB on a routine basis as they would have us believe is the case. They got real sloppy with this one when they posted the intercept before the plane was shot down.

a reply to: Adaluncatif

Excellent post. The reality is, the ability that fabricate that kind of conversation - and actually a lot more, in terms of audio/video "proof" - is well within the ability of modern intelligence agencies, and in coming decades will be within the ability of basic consumers, who will look back at these chapters of history with a laughing eye.

The simple truth is that wicked people shot down that plane. That's the narrative that should be advanced. Anyone who tries to tie this wicked act to a flag that covers millions of innocent good people, be it Russian or Ukrainian, needs to look at the fundamentals: The vast amount of Ukrainians don't wish harm upon Russians, and the vast amount of Russians don't wish harm upon Ukrainians. And probably both wish absolutely no harm upon Malaysians. So lets just call a wicked act, committed by a small clandestine minority of the population what it is: A wicked act that has nothing to do with the wishes of the people of either nation.

a reply to: Adaluncatif

Ukraine does not have the capability to intercept phone conversations of the FSB on a routine basis as they would have us believe is the case. They got real sloppy with this one when they posted the intercept before the plane was shot down.

Huh? So where did all those tapes come from that were supposedly leaked out of Ukraine, US talking with Ukraine bashing the EU and other juicy stuff that put a sock in the West's mouth?

a reply to: Adaluncatif

Kiev (AFP) - Social media posts by pro-Russian insurgents -- most of them hastily removed -- suggest the rebels thought they had shot down a Ukrainian army plane before realising in horror that it was in fact a packed Malaysian airliner.

The Twitter and blog messages were immediately publicised by top Kiev officials in their furious information war with the Kremlin for global opinion and the hearts and minds of ethnic Russians caught in the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War.

news.yahoo.com...



The guy in your video is basing everything he has off timestamps claiming the audio recording was posted before it happened. Problem with that, (and something that happens all the time every new incident that pops up) is that timestamps are sometimes modified for what timezone you are in, or they are simply recorded by the zone they are in which isn't the same time we are in.

Other problems are SEO and automatic page refreshing, auto-linking old articles to current topics making them look like they were posted long before they actually were etc.

I don't see his YT vid as proof of anything.

In the past, there were rumors that the USA used to use jumbo jets with concealed photographic equipment (to get below cloud cover where satellites and spy planes couldn't go). As a response, the Russians would shoot anything down. That's what happened to Korean Airlines 007 many years ago.

This has got the hands of the CIA all over it. This morning on the radio they discussed how the weapon used was Russian and how the separatists might have got hold if.

Why would the separatists who are ethnic Russians want to bring down an airliner? Whats in it for them. They are being ethnically cleansed so they they are to busy defending themselves or trying to get across the boarder in Russia.

Whats in it for the US owned thug that running the Ukraine without being elected? Plenty, they can blame Russia for it and use it to beat Europe over the head to blackmail them into increased cooperation and assistance.

Whats in it for CIA? the same thing that in it for the US tug in control.

What do they say?

ask who has the capability?
Who has in interest in it happening and
Who gains from it.

This has got the hands of the CIA all over it. This morning on the radio they discussed how the weapon used was Russian and how the separatists might have got hold if.

Why would the separatists who are ethnic Russians want to bring down an airliner? Whats in it for them. They are being ethnically cleansed so they they are to busy defending themselves or trying to get across the boarder in Russia.

Whats in it for the US owned thug that running the Ukraine without being elected? Plenty, they can blame Russia for it and use it to beat Europe over the head to blackmail them into increased cooperation and assistance.

Whats in it for CIA? the same thing that in it for the US tug in control.

What do they say?

ask who has the capability?
Who has in interest in it happening and
Who gains from it.

Oh well then. All is forgiven.

Are you kidding? This is an excuse for murder?

a reply to: stormcell

a reply to: learnatic


I am experiencing a news blackout out of the USA.

Can anyone comment on this?

All US cable networks are showing frozen screens.

a reply to: learnatic

Why would the separatists who are ethnic Russians want to bring down an airliner? Whats in it for them. They are being ethnically cleansed so they they are to busy defending themselves or trying to get across the boarder in Russia.

They wouldn't. They would want to bring down a military plane, or a commercial plane carrying military aid to the Ukrainian forces.

CHECK CHECK CHECK

Does anyone read this.

American TV has gone off the air in Canada.

Something is going on.

Would someone please respond?

a reply to: R_Clark

I was listening to the radio this morning and a guy said altitudes under 32000 feet were restricted but anything above was good. Apparently MH17 was at 33000 feet.