The Magic Binding On The "Infallible" Bible

I have always been confused by something in Christianity. For one, I understand personal divine gnosis and I fully encourage a person to be led by their spirituality to whatever deities that call them. This includes Christians. I do not fault a Christian for identifying their god to a god in a very impressive and amazing compilation of books. It's a lucrative religion full of lore, history, and promises. As long as you are on the "righteous" side, life is good as a Christian so the appeal is obvious.

It's when a Christian will support illogical, immoral, and sometimes evil actions with their bible. They only do so because they believe that every single one of the books in it and only those books are infallible and direct words of god. But why?

That is my question to ATS Christians. Why do you believe Christian bible is the "infallible word of god in its entirety"? Not all of you do, of course, so this question isn't for you (of course I'd like you to still weigh in, though).

Let's get the basic arguments I always hear out of the way first.

1. I have faith
   - Ok. Faith in what? Faith that somebody told you that? Having faith in your god does not mean you have to believe everything you are told by anybody other than your god. Did your god tell you that the collection of books about him are his exact words and will?
   
   
2. The bible says so
   - No it doesn't. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the collection of books you will someday decide to compile in one book is the exact word of your god. Nowhere in the bible is there a list of books you are supposed to include. Even Revelation is only referencing itself.
   
   
3. It's "inspired"
   - Ok... but that doesn't really mean "infallible" or "exact". The bible "inspired" me to write this thread but does that mean this thread is infallible because it was inspired by the Christian bible? So, even if one of the books in the bible was inspired as stated in those particular books, why would that mean anything at all about the rest of the books?
   

Out of all my questions about Christianity, this is the one I've never gotten a satisfactory answer out of. To me, this places "infallible word of god" Christians in the same boat as Young Earth Creationists. Any Christian who uses the bible to discriminate is one of these because, if you had any doubt that the bible was 100% verbatim from your god's mouth, you wouldn't use it to sew hate into our world. Only peace.

a reply to: Cuervo

Wha? You mean God didn't write the Bible? Looks like I have some soul searching to do.

People believe what they believe.

I gave my time to read your thread which I agree with in part.

What do you believe?

a reply to: Cuervo

I'll do you one better.

Sola Scriptura fans… where in the Bible is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura laid out?



(And, to your question, I personally don't believe that God wrote the Bible, though the Holy Spirit did inspire its writing. That's a pretty standard non-literalist perspective.)

originally posted by: minusinfinity
People believe what they believe.

I gave my time to read your thread which I agree with in part.

What do you believe?

About the bible? I believe it is a compilation of mythology, history, prophecy, and poetry. It may surprise some that I do believe that many authors of some of the books in the bible were divinely guided to write what they did. I know that my own pantheon I operate with served as a pre-biblical inspiration for the Abrahamic legends and gods so for me to discount the bible entirely would also be discrediting my own faith.

So I'm not one of those who believe that Christianity is all "fairy tales" but I never understood why anybody would take their holy books as literal words of their god when the books themselves don't even support that notion.

originally posted by: adjensen


(And, to your question, I personally don't believe that God wrote the Bible, though the Holy Spirit did inspire its writing. That's a pretty standard non-literalist perspective.)

The Holy Spirit....

That's not God? I thought that God, the Son and the Holy Ghost were all one...GOD the Holy trinity.

So are you now telling us that there are 3 separate and distinct GODS?

Seems unnecessarily complicated....

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Cuervo

I'll do you one better.

Sola Scriptura fans… where in the Bible is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura laid out?

(And, to your question, I personally don't believe that God wrote the Bible, though the Holy Spirit did inspire its writing. That's a pretty standard non-literalist perspective.)

Exactly. Sola Scriptura is a very insulated way of looking at the bible. You, being a non-literalist, also have the advantage of being able to discern your holy books for yourself which many Christians don't allow themselves to do.

a reply to: olaru12

Um…

Apparently you didn't read what I said -- "God didn't write the Bible" is the operative phrase. Inspiring humans to write the text is not the same thing as writing it.

My mother was a little overzealous on this matter. She said frogs are evil. Now, Moses and god used frogs to help to free the Israelite people, so you would think frogs would be god's creatures. But wait, Moses made the Israelite drink the water that they cooled the gold in which made them sick, then he had them killed. So the frogs helping to set these people free actually caused their death....now I see.

a reply to: Cuervo

The bible is man's interpretation of the Word of God.

Man is fallible.

Ergo, his interpretation is fallible.

Faith is personal. Religion is the vehicle that some use to move their faith.

Just my impressions and humble opinions.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Cuervo

Faith is personal. Religion is the vehicle that some use to move their faith.

Verbatim, that's what I've said to many people I speak with on the subject.

Get out of my head you bunny witch.

The "Bible" is a story we tell children so they behave and it's a story some believe because they're afraid to die.

(we all die in the end.)

It's as much fiction as any other novel. If you believe then....

Why would god create Satan?

Simple question but why would god kill his son?

a reply to: Cuervo

It's when a Christian will support illogical, immoral, and sometimes evil actions with their bible.

They only do so because they believe that every single one of the books in it and only those books are infallible and direct words of god.

But why?

Because people don't want to think and aren't really interested in the truth.

They want to enter in to a dissociative state and find their little niche in a group-machine so that they can "let go and let God"

Everyone does this, Cuervo, not just Christians.

In my series of threads on the Pentateuch laws, my line of argument was that they had a "mixed" origin, combining God's contribution with patently human elements, and that the task was to distinguish and separate the two sets of elements.
Even Jesus himself, talking about marriage, distinguished between God's real intentions and a law which had only been allowed because of their human "hardness of heart".
I think this approach can be applied to the Old Testament as a whole, though I would prefer to make the case with smaller portions.

a reply to: Cuervo First off please define infallible. Does that mean not able to fall or that one is inside falling? I know this is not the definition but it has relevence to your op. I totally believe that the book is the word of GOD givin to us by different means all stemming from GOD. I also believe it to be true and yet metaphorical at the same time. You seem to claim that the presence of evil or evil actions somehow negates GOD'S power and that negativity is somehow showing us that the plan has been changed. That negativity means GOD is not in control. I dare you to show me where it tells us that peace is the only thing GOD has control of. You have to take the good and the bad to understand.

I'm pretty sure you know what spiritual influence is and that it can effect our lives. Ultimitly that is your answer. I have found that it sometimes helps in understanding the way things are by trying to recreate in a small way life as we know it today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that in some way every thought posed is true to some extent. i see it doing ourselves a disservice to think that an idea has been proven false in any way but that our understanding and that wich we percieve is changing through the ages.
We could get into time travel and such seemingly crazy theories to explain much but in the end we can only choose what we believe because of perception. Starting my thought procees out by knowing that all things are possible through GOD often helps me see the other side.

I can't answer your questions, because I believe my beliefs are closer to yours, but since I find all religions interesting, I would also like to see how people answer these questions.

In some conversations I have had, I tend to get frustrated with people who follow the bible teachings, in that their answers come back circular.
But I do find it amazing to pose a question to any everyday citizen that claims to follow the bible, then to someone more "devout", then to my minister friend. The answers vary dramatically.

Thankfully, the minister has so much patients with me. I ask a lot of questions.

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: olaru12

Um…

Apparently you didn't read what I said -- "God didn't write the Bible" is the operative phrase. Inspiring humans to write the text is not the same thing as writing it.

I read it...just asking for clarification...is that now a sin?



So if God inspired man to write the text....it's still the word of God and infallible, right?

Or are you just playing semantic grab and tickle?

a reply to: Cuervo

Let me tell a little story...

Im not sure if you know of my situation with my girlfriend...

IF you don't.... Oh Lord... Why me??

That's where it started, and we're 10 month's in... Yay for me!!

ANYWAYS... recently I had a chance to meet with the parents and have a chat...

Long story... but during this discussion they said very adamantly "in our religion we do believe the bible is the Infallible word of God" and it is a gift to be given such knowledge...

I clinched my teeth... knowing full well they were waiting for a response... but they got nothing from me...

So they said, we know from what shes told us that you believe there are contradictions.... as I try to hide a grin...

"now we've been reading the bible for all of our lives... and of course I am no scholar (dad talking) but I believe if you talk to a minister or pastor they will be able to give you a good explanation to any of your contradicions...

I blink and wait for a minute trying to think of a response that won't get me hung... ummm... I already have a few times actually... they didn't have answers to quite a few.... sorry

He says... no no don't be sorry... I'd actually like to hear of some of these contradictions one day...

Alright... Well I can give you one right off the top of my head right now if you'd like...

Please do he said with a slight smirk...

So I give him the dating of Jesus' execution according to mark vs the date according to john...

And I get a blank stare from Mom, Dad, and the girlfriend... They look at each other for a few seconds...

and all I get is.... Oh...

and the topic changes quickly...

Sigh

All it takes is a little reading to see that the bible is certainly not inerrant or infallible....

This idea can only be taught... or learned by listening, and not reading for yourself

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Cuervo First off please define infallible. Does that mean not able to fall or that one is inside falling? I know this is not the definition but it has relevence to your op.

It means that whatever the bible says is, is. Meaning that nothing written in any of the books chosen to be bound together has any errors or "wrongness" to them.

originally posted by: deadeyedickI totally believe that the book is the word of GOD givin to us by different means all stemming from GOD. I also believe it to be true and yet metaphorical at the same time.

So... all of the horrible things about dashing babies against rocks and beating slaves are directly from your god of love? Wouldn't you rather believe that those types of things in the bible were actually not derivative of your god? Wouldn't you rather believe that verses about stoning your back-talking children were more likely written by men who wanted to justify their abuse?

Wouldn't you rather think that your god disapproved of those verses and expected his worshipers to use common sense when it came to holy scripture?

originally posted by: deadeyedick You seem to claim that the presence of evil or evil actions somehow negates GOD'S power and that negativity is somehow showing us that the plan has been changed. That negativity means GOD is not in control. I dare you to show me where it tells us that peace is the only thing GOD has control of. You have to take the good and the bad to understand.

I didn't say anything like that. What I said is that, unless you believe that the bible is a direct and literally-transcribed word of your god, why would you cling to any of the commandments that sewed evil and hate? Why not just play it safe and only follow the ones that endorsed love and promoted healthy societies? Jesus seemed to have that down pretty well so I don't understand why a lot of Christians don't.

originally posted by: deadeyedickI'm pretty sure you know what spiritual influence is and that it can effect our lives. Ultimitly that is your answer. I have found that it sometimes helps in understanding the way things are by trying to recreate in a small way life as we know it today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that in some way every thought posed is true to some extent. i see it doing ourselves a disservice to think that an idea has been proven false in any way but that our understanding and that wich we percieve is changing through the ages.

See... I read your words and have a hard time believing you take the bible literally.

originally posted by: deadeyedickWe could get into time travel and such seemingly crazy theories to explain much but in the end we can only choose what we believe because of perception. Starting my thought procees out by knowing that all things are possible through GOD often helps me see the other side.

Ok but that doesn't say whether or not you think the books in the bible are the complete and accurate collection of all things relating to your god. Do you shave? Do you eat shell fish? Do you kill your wife if she defends you by punching an assailant in his junk (yep, that's actually in there)?

a reply to: Cuervo Like i said you gotta take the good with the bad. I can't really follow your conversation if you choose to bring up things from the old testament and then ask me if i would do them or if i follow them. However i can say for a fact that many of us would not be here if those things did not happen. If you ever pick up a bible you will notice a seperation between the testaments. That seperation does not keep the negative and positive apart but it tells a story of change. I'm not sure what you want to hear from me ecause you know i have faith that all things are from GOD and that his book is devine. I do not seek to reform the word but i also find treasures in it that would not exist without negativity. I guess it is a scary thought to think there are those of us out here that feel that the unworthy are being used to form a future without the unworthy that choose to not repent because bad things happpened in the past. I also believe that humans are beast of burdens. Why does a battery have both a positive and negative side? Maybe we could just create an all positive battery.