Agnostic thought, god a non-conscious being?

This was a thought provoked today in of all places, a casino, with a drink and a discussion with... gasp a Muslim. Quite the typical Muslim too, I might add, mid 20's, African-American, wearing a Cavaliers jersey and shorts with a cap on backwards. Oddly enough our conversation came about because my friend that was bartending had not seen the Michael Jackson holograph video. A really cool guy named Odie was sitting next to me and noticed that and that struck up a convo about how that tech is actually kind of scary if used for the wrong purposes. Imagine Putin or Obama done with that tech with harmful intent...anyways not to stray from my own OP, our discussion progressed into a somewhat political, then slightly religious conversation.

He explained to me his view of religion is their is only one creator (god) and all is of one, others are only prophets. My response is I guess at best I could be considered an agnostic scientologist. I believe in science, I believe in physics, I believe in energy, but I'm not convinced so much on an all-mighty creator God.

What provoked this specific thought of mine was he said "doesn't every drop of water eventually come from the ocean, even if you can't prove it came from the ocean?"

Got me to thinking, and I don't want to go to deep into thought without a little thought and input into it, but basically, what if what human kind knows and believes as God is actually there, but as a non-conscious everything and anything. Energy for example. What if God created everything but does not consciously realize it created everything?

Well, to me a part of god is the collective consciousness of this world. A being created by the beliefs of all beings on it. This energy consciousness stimulates new life formation. It may be shared with a bigger consciousness in the universe. Now this being isn't flesh and blood and does not actually fit into our definition of life. But is our definition of life actually really accurate, could life exist as a combination of all life forms of this planet working together forming an entity. If this is true, chaos would also have an entity associated with it.

a reply to: KnowledgeSeeker81

You mean like what if god sneezed and we are just the mucus that came out to which he never gave any thought to us as we were just reflex?

Ehh...I guess it could have happened that way. Really no one know regardless of what they may claim.


Anyway you probably don't want to refer to yourself as a scientologist unless you actually know what Scientology is and your down with the L. Ron Hubbard crowd. Full on Theatans and Lord Xenu.

As far as every drop of water coming from the Ocean. Well no. Every day the earth is bombarded by tiny and not so tiny meteors and many of them are comprised of H2O. Then there is water stored in the earths mantle and water stored in the polar regions but lets not get int facts. I know it was an analogy.

a reply to: rickymouse
I understand the thought and belief of god, but what I'm wondering is does God know that? Does God know we, or the universe for that matter exist? Is it possible the creator doesn't know he's the creator? For example, a scratch or cut on our body we don't notice, it heals itself without our knowledge by the creations of itself, the body.

a reply to: Grimpachi
Ehh I'm new to the whole "what am I classified as", a friend in the past referred to me as an "agnostic scientologist" hmm, maybe that was an insult hehe.

I don't mean what if god sneezed and we happened, and he didn't know, I mean what if God didn't know he sneezed?


All the water on earth EVENTUALLY recycles, even if its from us disturbing Lake Vostok after a few thousand centuries, or coming out of Yellowstone in geysers

a reply to: KnowledgeSeeker81

What provoked this specific thought of mine was he said "doesn't every drop of water eventually come from the ocean, even if you can't prove it came from the ocean?"

No. All water originated in space. I can't "prove" that, but the truth of it doesn't change because you choose not to see it that way. There's no reason for me to try to convince you because you aren't trying to make government policy based on where all of the water came from.

Got me to thinking, and I don't want to go to deep into thought without a little thought and input into it, but basically, what if what human kind knows and believes as God is actually there, but as a non-conscious everything and anything. Energy for example. What if God created everything but does not consciously realize it created everything?

It's just as likely as any other hypothesis about a deity. There's no way of knowing about it, so unless your thinking about it is used as a reason for enacting government policy or becomes a new cult, all discussion will eventually be revealed to be fruitless.

Got me to thinking, and I don't want to go to deep into thought without a little thought and input into it, but basically, what if what human kind knows and believes as God is actually there, but as a non-conscious everything and anything. Energy for example. What if God created everything but does not consciously realize it created everything?

Having just watched an episode of "Yes, Minister", a particularly pertinent quote comes to mind that, while not content-wise related to this particular scenario, the idea being conveyed is very similar.

"Bernard, I have served eleven governments in the past thirty years. If I had believed in all their policies, I would have been passionately committed to keeping out of the Common Market, and passionately committed to going into it. I would have been utterly convinced of the rightness of nationalising steel. And of denationalising it and renationalising it. On capital punishment, I'd have been a fervent retentionist and an ardent abolishionist. I would've been a Keynesian and a Friedmanite, a grammar school preserver and destroyer, a nationalisation freak and a privatisation maniac; but above all, I would have been a stark, staring, raving schizophrenic."

How it relates, in case you can not see, is that the sheer number of contradictory deities in existence makes the hypothesis that everything "humankind" "knows" (which is nothing) and "believes" about this deity is true about as low as all of the individual deities each existing in some kind of separate void apart from each other while at the same time all having an equal say in reality, with all of their own beliefs about how humanity should operate being put into effect at the same time.

originally posted by: KnowledgeSeeker81
a reply to: rickymouse
I understand the thought and belief of god, but what I'm wondering is does God know that? Does God know we, or the universe for that matter exist? Is it possible the creator doesn't know he's the creator? For example, a scratch or cut on our body we don't notice, it heals itself without our knowledge by the creations of itself, the body.

Does this being actually have a consciousness of it's own? Does it realize it is god? I wouldn't know. I would guess since it is a communication pathway that structures and is dependent on all life, it could reside in certain living things with consciousness ties. They wouldn't actually have to be human, but I think that humans can possess this link. Now the consensus of this being would be an accumulation of knowledge and belief of all species on this planet and linked to abroad (alien planets) possibly. So yes, it could actually know it is god, with a little being part of every single living thing on this planet, including humans. Many people could not be aware a little of them is part of this.

a reply to: zackli

You took an awfully long time to completely misconstrue what I said. I don't believe in god, I don't not believe in god. My simple thought was god did make everything but doesn't know it's god and doesn't know it made everything. I just want thoughts and feedback on that idea. I don't wish to be preached anything.

a reply to: rickymouse
That's exactly kind of my thought. With the difference that the entity of belief is unaware of itself, it only acts systematically without outside awareness. It made everything but knows nothing about it and has no idea anything exists. Kind of like the internet, does the internet know it exists?

originally posted by: KnowledgeSeeker81
a reply to: Grimpachi
Ehh I'm new to the whole "what am I classified as", a friend in the past referred to me as an "agnostic scientologist" hmm, maybe that was an insult hehe.

I don't mean what if god sneezed and we happened, and he didn't know, I mean what if God didn't know he sneezed?


All the water on earth EVENTUALLY recycles, even if its from us disturbing Lake Vostok after a few thousand centuries, or coming out of Yellowstone in geysers

It could be your friend didn't know what a scientologist is either if he did that was an insult taken in the context you described.

As far as the water there is some trapped so far down n the earth that it will never see the light of day there was a recent thread on it here at ats or you can see it at IFLScience also unless Antarctica continent shifts to a warmer climate some of that ICE will never make it to the Oceans unless the sun turns into a red giant and the earth hasn't been destroyed by then because parts of Antarctica are considered deserts. Anyway the water facts are splitting hairs.

As far as the God thing sure he could be oblivious to our universe but then you have to ask whats the point in even acknowledging a god.

Howdy,
First, let me say I don't think an "unaware" god breaks any of the observable facts of nature.
That said, I'm curious why you would even need to invoke a god/power at that point. If you agree that this god is not actively interfering with the laws of nature he set forth, then there is no clear evidence that he even needs to exist. So although he does not break these laws of nature (by interfering with life, or the universe, or anything...), it makes more sense to assume that "the laws of nature just are" instead of assuming "the laws of nature just are AND there is a god controlling them."
Regards,
Hydeman

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: KnowledgeSeeker81
a reply to: Grimpachi
Ehh I'm new to the whole "what am I classified as", a friend in the past referred to me as an "agnostic scientologist" hmm, maybe that was an insult hehe.

I don't mean what if god sneezed and we happened, and he didn't know, I mean what if God didn't know he sneezed?


All the water on earth EVENTUALLY recycles, even if its from us disturbing Lake Vostok after a few thousand centuries, or coming out of Yellowstone in geysers

As far as the God thing sure he could be oblivious to our universe but then you have to ask whats the point in even acknowledging a god.

That's what I'm getting at, what if god is there, but there is no motivation that religion offers?

originally posted by: hydeman11
Howdy,
First, let me say I don't think an "unaware" god breaks any of the observable facts of nature.
That said, I'm curious why you would even need to invoke a god/power at that point. If you agree that this god is not actively interfering with the laws of nature he set forth, then there is no clear evidence that he even needs to exist. So although he does not break these laws of nature (by interfering with life, or the universe, or anything...), it makes more sense to assume that "the laws of nature just are" instead of assuming "the laws of nature just are AND there is a god controlling them."
Regards,
Hydeman

It's simply a thought to provoke discussion. A what if, what if everything religious people believed was right, except the afterlife part. You are not done, rather re-distributed physically and energetically, without the knowledge of the "creator".

a reply to: KnowledgeSeeker81

Forces extremely balanced to a knife edge to allow life to exist suggest that the maker has an intelligence beyond belief.

a reply to: KnowledgeSeeker81

Howdy,
I assume you mean that "everything the religious people believed was right" refers to Christians? (You say specifically one God) And that god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-encompassing? In that case...
All right then, fair enough. I suppose it would be very disappointing for a lot of religious people... Having lived by laws, traditions, and customs that may have made them miss out on opportunities in life that they would have taken. Perhaps they would have worn that polyester cotton blend shirt after all.
I don't think the atheists would mind too much, though. Sure we would have been wrong, but the logic that provided our stances was pretty strong. There was never really a way of knowing, to be honest. I'd personally be all right with that scenario, it isn't too much different from that predicted by my current worldviews, except it has an "all powerful force."
If you mean that there have been "miracles" enacted by this figure, then he likely ceases to be the unaware god that you wish to speak of.
Regards.

originally posted by: KnowledgeSeeker81
a reply to: rickymouse
That's exactly kind of my thought. With the difference that the entity of belief is unaware of itself, it only acts systematically without outside awareness. It made everything but knows nothing about it and has no idea anything exists. Kind of like the internet, does the internet know it exists?

All those who use the internet know it exists, so in essence, the collective consciousness could realize it exists.

In the case of God, the collective consciousness could steer everything to act appropriately, except of course, some humans. From my observations and evaluating, the ones who automatically respond to this consciousness may not actually be those that we assume are part of it. I also think this consciousness can cause you to do things that you can't comprehend you are being steered to do. Could you misplace your keys because there is someone who is sick and is accident prone driving to where you will be passing them? This consciousness could actually steer you out of trouble or cause you to not comprehend a situation and die or get injured. Something living, even if not by our standards of definition of living, would have to be monitoring this.

Then again, this reality could just be a very advanced form of computer program or be steered from an advanced world elsewhere utilizing an intelligence we cannot comprehend.

a reply to: hydeman11
That's exactly what I mean, (and not just in a christian sense, in an all religion sense). What would be the mindset of devout muslims, jews, hindus, christians, etc, to know that yes there IS a creator, but no, it doesn't know you. It satisfies both atheism and theism since it satisfies our origin, we weren't just put here by god, something was created and eventually became humans, by something that didn't know it made something.

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: KnowledgeSeeker81
a reply to: rickymouse
That's exactly kind of my thought. With the difference that the entity of belief is unaware of itself, it only acts systematically without outside awareness. It made everything but knows nothing about it and has no idea anything exists. Kind of like the internet, does the internet know it exists?

All those who use the internet know it exists, so in essence, the collective consciousness could realize it exists.

That's as close to the root question I ask as could be, the collective is aware of it, but is it aware of itself? If not, then what?

a reply to: KnowledgeSeeker81

It wouldn't actually have to be aware that it exists. God would not actually even exist by our definition of life though if this were the case. But the consciousness could exist. Remember that this consciousness also includes the consciousness of every animal, bug, and even microbe and fungus or plant out there. It would not just include humans as people would want to believe. This being would not have to be in the image of man either, except in our wildest religious dreams.

a reply to: glend
Do you consciously activate your immune system when you are ill, or is it automated? Do you consciously break down food in your body to extract the nutrients? Or does it just happen, and the human body can actually be similarly compared to the universe. YOU consciously don't realize what your body does, but it does it to make you live. Your body reacts to the laws of physics/nature to keep you alive, and you cannot stop that. Does that mean your immune system is conscious, or is it programmed to react to alterations?

You know about it but could a god type entity progress beyond knowing it, and become automated, creating without knowing creation? Also could it form without that conscious self-knowledge and simply be an automated natural process?

I just look for input, not answers to it all