Separation of Church and State

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Annee

I don't know why you are trying to argue with me about this. I know what an atheist is and I also know that atheist religions exist. I just gave you two of them. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant because those people in the religions say otherwise.

If you know what an atheist is then you know full well they don't and can't have religions. I imagine that is why Annee is 'arguing' with you - simply pointing out an inaccuracy which you seem to find impossible to comprehend.

How about the seperation of church and hate?

Some people need to read a certain document. That was written by the same people who wrote the constitution.

PAY ATTENTION here.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

www.archives.gov...


There has never been a 'separation of church and state'.

Laws of Nature, and Nature's GOD ENTITLED THEM.

ALL of our rights come from the creator.

Doesn't matter what name people want to call it.

Which the 1st clearly laid out.

No single religion would dominate.

Then they need to follow up with the other piece of paper.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

www.archives.gov...

Blessings of Liberty.

Sounds like a religious term there.

Religion was never a dirty word to the founders.

It has been demagogued for the past few decades.

To kill the church of religion. To replace it with the church of government.

originally posted by: neo96
Blessings of Liberty.
Sounds like a religious term there.

Something to keep in mind from the era of the Founders. In an effort to add 'legitimacy' to our nation they often copied the styling's of the other Republics they hoped to emulate; Greece and Rome.

A hallmark of both of these republics was the 'personification' of the abstract; i.e. Liberty as a personified abstract concept, hence the capital 'L'. The same can be found in Columbia or America, both are personified pieces of art incorporated into the Capitol Building.

ahhh yes antidisestablishmentarianism.......

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Was referring to Blessings.

As it is defined:

bless·ing [bles-ing] Show IPA noun 1. the act or words of a person who blesses. 2. a special favor, mercy, or benefit: the blessings of liberty. 3. a favor or gift bestowed by God, thereby bringing happiness. 4. the invoking of God's favor upon a person: The son was denied his father's blessing. 5. praise; devotion; worship, especially grace said before a meal: The children took turns reciting the blessing.

dictionary.reference.com...

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

originally posted by: neo96
Was referring to Blessings.

Which would be bestowed by the personification of Liberty.

I understand where you are coming from however. The Founders, the large majority anyway, did believe that our rights were granted by God. They just were very careful to not name God as they knew this could lead to problems in the future and their writings were very clear on this point.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

That is what the name GOD does.

A personification man can relate to.

originally posted by: neo96
That is what the name GOD does.

A personification man can relate to.

Right, but the Founders were very clear when they wanted to utilize that name and did so. When they did not they used other literary means to convey a meaning. They all were very well written and understood the turn of a phrase and underlying meanings implied thereby.

yeah, that's what turkey still tries hard to maintain as the dude who is the head of our government is from the same school of thought as the leaders of isis. though christianity is not as dangerous and open to exploitation as islam, and has ceased to be a threat to science and progress as of renaissance, its still good news nonetheless.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
God is just the word we use in English to signify Deity.

the problem is the "deity". any deity is a problem from a disbeliever's perspective as long as the deity is among the foci of a government. true laicism stands at equal distance to any faith (or disbelief for that matter). that's the trait what makes it laicism. the opposite of this stance is discriminatory towards the citizens who are atheists, pagans, believers of the spaghetti monster etc. and so forth.

originally posted by: jamsession
the problem is the "deity". any deity is a problem from a disbeliever's perspective as long as the deity is among the foci of a government.

It was never part of the Founders intentions to make Deity the foci of the government. They simply believed that our rights originated from a higher authority.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: neo96
That is what the name GOD does.

A personification man can relate to.

Right, but the Founders were very clear when they wanted to utilize that name and did so. When they did not they used other literary means to convey a meaning. They all were very well written and understood the turn of a phrase and underlying meanings implied thereby.

The original draft of the US Constitution did not have the word Creator. I don't think it showed up until the 3rd draft.

Also, as I understand it, it is meant as the Deist concept of Creator. Basically, the Creator created --- then "walked" away leaving all decisions to man on what he chose to do with the Creation. In other words, the Creator gave up all control of his Creation.

Did Jefferson have a change of mind? Did he write it in on the suggestion or advice of Adams or Franklin? Perhaps one of those two wrote it in. Perhaps one of the other two of the Committee of Five suggest it? What, if anything beyond the original phrase by Jefferson can be determined and what does it all mean? candst.tripod.com...

originally posted by: Annee
The original draft of the US Constitution did not have the word Creator. I don't think it showed up until the 3rd draft.
Also, as I understand it, it is meant as the Deist concept of Creator. Basically, the Creator created --- then "walked" away leaving all decisions to man on what he chose to do with the Creation. In other words, the Creator gave up all control of his Creation.

You are absolutely correct. As many of the Founders advocated Deism the concept of a Creator was left to personal interpretation.

What happened to the OP? Got outsmarted trying to 'educate' the ignorant masses? Instead to find he quoted an opinion piece - I'd love to know how many preachers/ministers/heads-of-household are using that material to dumb down their flock. Sure, the Founding Fathers may have been Christian - but reason and observation of the natural world trumped their belief system. Though in today's day and age, please let me know when the US government starts observing miracles and such.

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

The main goal was to ensure that there was no "State Religion". An example they wanted to avoid at the time was the English and the Anglican Church. Part and parcel with that was that it was vehemently anti-Catholic.

As men of science they knew that organized religion - of any denomination or faith - is bad for science and honest discovery and they didn't want the government getting in it's own way. It is bad enough that in the 21st century you have people who seriously believe that "Creationism" should be taught in science class (or at all, frankly). Imagine where the country might be today if any form of Theocracy had taken hold in government?

This country was meant to be a secular republic. It's quite evident.

If this country was meant to be a Christian nation, along with it's dogmas being law, why would we even need representatives who cater to the needs and wishes of the public whom elected them into office? Why do we have a freedom of religion which guarantees religious freedom if this country was meant to be a Christian nation? That would just be going against their entire strategy. Why are our bill of rights not the 10 commandments? Wouldn't have been hard, considering both are conveniently numbered to 10.

The founding fathers weren't dumb people. Creating a theocracy would have gone horribly wrong eventually. The whole purpose they got away from, and fought, the British was to live independently and free from oppression, while upholding individual liberties and freedoms. And setting up a government that lets the voters decide what should, and shouldn't happen. Having everyone collectively bow down to an absolute power was not something they were in favor of.

The way our government is currently setup and was initially setup makes no sense on the basis of a Christian nation. A system of voting and legislating would be obsolete if everything was in the name/word of the Christian god. Everything would be resolved pretty much instantaneously if there was a clear reference/punishment to the event in question inside of the bible, or any other highly regarded Christian text.

originally posted by: neo96
Some people need to read a certain document. That was written by the same people who wrote the constitution.

PAY ATTENTION here.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

www.archives.gov...


There has never been a 'separation of church and state'.

Laws of Nature, and Nature's GOD ENTITLED THEM.

ALL of our rights come from the creator.

Doesn't matter what name people want to call it.

Which the 1st clearly laid out.

No single religion would dominate.

Then they need to follow up with the other piece of paper.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

www.archives.gov...

Blessings of Liberty.

Sounds like a religious term there.

Religion was never a dirty word to the founders.

It has been demagogued for the past few decades.

To kill the church of religion. To replace it with the church of government.

please show me what "rights" you get from your "creator" and why it took the foundation of america from them to come into existance?

your rights come from the gov you live under. they are granted by the gov, and defended by the weapons and lives of the military of that gov.

for example. blacks did not have equal rights until the gov said they did.

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

That is what the name GOD does.

A personification man can relate to.

god is not a proper name, but a type of being.

to say "god" is a name would be like calling your workmate "bob" "human".

all gods have names, jehovah being the name of the christian god.

originally posted by: jamsession
yeah, that's what turkey still tries hard to maintain as the dude who is the head of our government is from the same school of thought as the leaders of isis. though christianity is not as dangerous and open to exploitation as islam, and has ceased to be a threat to science and progress as of renaissance, its still good news nonetheless.

christianity "has ceased to be a threat to science and progress" you say?

please explain the anti-evolution crowd dumbing down science classes across the country.