Say goodbye to Mecca (Ka'ba)......ISIS threat

originally posted by: demus

originally posted by: Restricted
If the Kaaba is so respected why does ISIS want to destroy it?

ISIS is a secret services operation (probably) and even if they weren't they don't represent Islam or Muslims, even the extremists have distanced themselves from ISIS.

Doubt they are a secret services operation...that would be a lot of secret service men they rounded up that can't let the cat out of the bag on it being an operation.

How do they not represent Muslims? They are Muslim. And how have the extremists distanced themselves....many are joining and ISIS is actually causing others to try to fight even harder so they don't "lose face" in the eyes of their funding sources.

a reply to: demus

How do you know?

They ARE extemist.

originally posted by: demus
Muslims believe Qur'an to be revelation from God.

And I showed how it isn't. The HAJ and the KAABA are from the pagans.

seems you're trying to force your views on others - not very tolerant indeed.

This is a discussion forum. We discuss things openly. We give our views and present evidence and facts. This isn't a muslim echo chamber. There is free speech here and freedom of information.

I see in the end of your post you tend to understand, support and agree with ISIS

Then you need glasses because your eyesight stinks. You shouldn't tell lies like that. I said very clearly .. ISIS is a bunch of nutters ... but they have an interesting point when it comes to reverence of the kaaba. That's not even close to saying that I 'tend to understand, support and agree with them'.

brother,

I'm a woman.

nobody have to prove anything to you

Actually, when people make statements here they DO have to prove them.
That's the point of a discussion forum.

don't force your worldview on anyone, you come out ignorant.

It's not 'my worldview' to state the facts as history and science have proven them. The only people who look ignorant are those who reject the truth.

originally posted by: Restricted
If the Kaaba is so respected why does ISIS want to destroy it?

That's their point. It's TOO 'respected'. ISIS claims that Islam worships idols, including the Kaaba, and that Allah doesn't approve of what is going on in Islam with these idols (Tomb of Jonah, the meteorite, the Kaaba, etc). So the nutters have decided to fix Islam according to how they think it should be.

I'm waiting for ISIS to declare: Next is Jerusalem.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: demus
Muslims believe Qur'an to be revelation from God.

And I showed how it isn't. The HAJ and the KAABA are from the pagans.

- how did you show it? by saying it? how did you prove it?

seems you're trying to force your views on others - not very tolerant indeed.

This is a discussion forum. We discuss things openly. We give our views and present evidence and facts. This isn't a muslim echo chamber. There is free speech here and freedom of information.

- I will say again; seems you are trying to force your views on others, not very tolerant - of course there is a freedom of information but you seems to picky pick information and aggressively dismiss whatever doesn't fit into your view...

I see in the end of your post you tend to understand, support and agree with ISIS

Then you need glasses because your eyesight stinks. You shouldn't tell lies like that. I said very clearly .. ISIS is a bunch of nutters ... but they have an interesting point when it comes to reverence of the kaaba. That's not even close to saying that I 'tend to understand, support and agree with them'.

- OK, I stand corrected, you tend to understand, support and agree with ISIS when it comes to reverence of the Kaaba...

brother,

I'm a woman.

- brother, as brethren, kinfolk of mine; my woman would be too strange...

nobody have to prove anything to you

Actually, when people make statements here they DO have to prove them.
That's the point of a discussion forum.

- you were requiring of Muslims to prove something to you, I was talking about Muslims or any other group of people certainly do not have to prove anything to you...

don't force your worldview on anyone, you come out ignorant.

It's not 'my worldview' to state the facts as history and science have proven them. The only people who look ignorant are those who reject the truth.

- facts from your point of view - fact, for example is that you don't even know or understand what has been said in Qur'an about Pagans, pilgrimage and so on, that is a fact... the fact is that you're trying to prove a religion wrong without knowing anything of substance about it, that is a fact...

a reply to: FlyersFan

According to ISIS, those pilgrims are in error for worshipping a meteorite

Muslims do not worship the meteorite.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: mekhanics
ISIS thinks they worship a meteorite.
If they do or not can be debated.
But that's what ISIS thinks.
They think muslims aren't 'muslim enough'.
So the nutters think they are going to fix 'em all.

originally posted by: demus
how did you show it? by saying it? how did you prove it?

Historical fact. The pagans ran between the hills. The pagans threw pebbles at evil spirits. The pagans circumambulated. The Zoroastrians bowed in prayer 7 times a day. These are what the pagans in that area did and they predate the Qu'ran. That is where those things came from in the Qu'ran. They came from the pagans. Not from God. And Abraham wasn't ever in Mecca. That's a historical fact.

seems you are trying to force your views on others, not very tolerant -

Historical and scientific fact aren't 'my view' ... they are just fact. And since this is a discussion forum, facts will be presented. And no, tolerating ignorance isn't part of the ATS motto. And that's what denying facts is ... ignorance.

If you want everyone to believe exactly like you do, then this isn't the place for you. If you want people to ignore science and archeology and historical fact because they don't line up with your religion, then I suggest you find a Muslim forum echochamber. You won't find that here.

you tend to understand, support and agree with ISIS when it comes to reverence of the Kaaba...

I said they have an interesting point. I did not 'understand, support and agree. I said it's interesting. They see Islam in a different way then other Muslims. It looks like a fluid interpretation. That's interesting.

a reply to: FlyersFan

you will have hard time explain away religious belief - it is a belief; especially if you're not even know what the particular religious belief actually is...

One of Abraham's most important features in Islamic theology is his role as the constructor of the Kabba. Although tradition recounts that Adam constructed the original Kabba, which was demolished by the Great Flood at the time of Noah, Abraham is believed to have rebuilt it in its original form. The Quran, in the Muslim perspective, merely confirms or reinforces the laws of pilgrimage. The rites were instituted by Abraham and for all Muslims, as they perform the pilgrimage, the event is a way to return to the perfection of Abraham's faith.

a reply to: FlyersFan

The Ka'ba was not originally Pagan though I agree that Pagans were using the Ka'ba with their idols at some stage prior to Islam. The Ka'ba actually goes right back to the times of Abraham and Ishmael who built the Ka'ba in their times according to Islamic chronology. Others say back to the time of Adam but I don't know much about that.

The Pagans worshipped 100's of idols which Mohammad came along and destroyed.. So regardless of what has happened at the site, Islam is not a Pagan religion otherwise Mohammad would of kept all the idols nd they would still be worshipped today.

a reply to: demus

It doesn't matter whether people think the Qu'ran is stolen from the Bible or not, the Qu'ran actually speaks about things that the Bible never does. So how can the entire teachings about the prophets be only stolen from the Bible when it speaks about things the Bibe is clueless about?

originally posted by: demus
you will have hard time explain away religious belief -

No it's rather easy.

1 - Abraham was never in Mecca.
2 - the 'rites instituted by Abraham' were really just pagan rituals Muhammad borrowed for his Qu'ran.
3 - There was no world wide flood or even Noah. (Summerian story)
4 - There was no Adam (of Adam and Eve fame).

All explained away easily by irrefutable science, archeology, and historical fact.

It's religious people who have the 'hard time' dealing with reality because they cling to their religious notions even in the
face of absolute fact that what their beliefs claim simply did not happen.

a reply to: DarknStormy

Really? Comeon. Obviously Muhammad made up a bunch of fillers for the old stories that he 'borrowed'. And he got the fillers wrong. Case in point - Abraham. He was never in Mecca. And the pilgrimage rituals didn't come from Abraham, they came from the pagans in the area.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: DarknStormy

Really? Comeon. Obviously Muhammad made up a bunch of fillers for the old stories that he 'borrowed'. And he got the fillers wrong. Case in point - Abraham. He was never in Mecca. And the pilgrimage rituals didn't come from Abraham, they came from the pagans in the area.

First prophet was Adam and last was Muhammed (sav) . In between the two , it is rumoured that Allah has sent 124000 prophets to earth.

For muslims , it is obligatory to believe in the existence of these prophets. Even if we have no clue who these prophets were , still we accept that they existed .

originally posted by: DarknStormy
... Abraham and Ishmael who built the Ka'ba

Abraham was never in mecca. Muhammad made that story up so he could gain credibility with the people he was trying to win over to the religion/politics he had invented.

Others say back to the time of Adam but I don't know much about that.

There is no such thing as Adam and Eve. It's been proven by irrefutable science.

Islam is not a Pagan religion otherwise Mohammad would of kept all the idols nd they would still be worshipped today.

It's possible to keep some pagan idols/practices and destroy others. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. Muhammad smashed the idols in the kaaba, but he kept the pagan rituals of running between the hills and throwing pebbles at evil spirits. It's the same kind of thing Christianity did ... Christianity kept Christmas trees which are pagan but repackaged them and said they were a celebration of Jesus birthday. And Christianity took the winter solstice pagan celebrations and repackaged them as Jesus birthday. Islam did the same thing, repackaging pagan rituals as Islamic ones.

Anyways - ISIS isn't saying that Muhammad and Islam are pagan or are idolatry. Just the opposite. They are saying that Muhammad wasn't engaging in idol worship but that modern Muslims ARE because of their veneration at the tombs of 'prophets' (like Jonah) and what the Muslims do at the Kaaba. They say modern muslims have strayed from the original non-idol message of Muhammad.

They see idolatry in the Kaaba and Mecca. And they think that's not what Muhammad would have wanted. So that's why they are going to go after it. They think they are outstanding Muslims for doing so.

originally posted by: 23432
For muslims , it is obligatory to believe in the existence of these prophets.

QUESTION ... so what do you do when it's proven that the 'prophet' didn't exist?
Like with Adam and Eve? It's proven with science that they didn't exist.
And Noah of Noahs Ark? The Noahs Ark story has been disproven.
What do you do in the face of that kind of information?
How can you defend a belief when it's proven not to have happened?
Faith in something that may or may not be ..... I can see that.
But how can you have faith in something that is proven not to be true?

Honest question. I'd like to know.

With Christians it doesn't matter. Christianity doesn't depend on buying into the Adam and Eve creation mythology and Noahs Ark is unimportant. The gospels with Jesus are what matter.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: DarknStormy

Really? Comeon. Obviously Muhammad made up a bunch of fillers for the old stories that he 'borrowed'. And he got the fillers wrong. Case in point - Abraham. He was never in Mecca. And the pilgrimage rituals didn't come from Abraham, they came from the pagans in the area.

Abraham come from Mesopotamia, a place at the time where no-one worshipped God. So it is possible that he did venture through Saudi Arabia on his way to the promised land. We will never know but in saying that also, I could make a case that the Romans cut and pasted stories into the Bible to suit themselves. How do we know that the Bible is actually what was taught through Jesus? The argument can be made for both religions.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
The argument can be made for both religions.

Absolutely.

That's why I said ... it's okay to have a faith or belief in something that hasn't been proven to be true. That's why it's called faith. Maybe it is true and maybe not, but you choose to think it probably is true. But having faith in something that has been proven false? That makes no sense.

Look, this guy and ISIS have the Mahdi playbook and are running it. They are claiming to restore the "true" worship as Allah intended it. So long as enough people buy into this, it doesn't matter what is or isn't the "true" Islam. All that matters is that they get enough followers to support their cause and keep it running.