Large majority of car manufacturing now in right-to-work states

a reply to: MyHappyDogShiner

I agree with much of what you say regarding the need for union existence, but in many cases to the average employee the union is more valuable outside the establishment then they are inside. Meaning it's better to have the threat of unionization than to actually have the union.

Go on strike for a month and how long does it take to make up for wages lost? (Hint: a very long time and chances are there will be another strike before you break even).

Union corruption: How many unions have seen their funds pilfered by high ranking members? (hint, almost all of them).

Considering that jobs are moving overseas due to the high wages paid in the US vs low overseas (amongst other reasons) what part does the Union play in speeding the movement of those jobs overseas?

What part do unions play regarding the actual driving of companies out of business? You certainly cannot claim that does not happen, but I hope you do (Hostess for one: nice job, union, assuring the loss of hundreds of jobs by refusing to cooperate)

I might remind you that unions do not produce anything, they do not own any part of the manufacturing process and they do not manage any part of the process (unless you count the ignorant union controls resulting in massively inefficient operations). They are also not responsible for profit or efficiency and yet manage to have a considerable impact on both, normally negatively. Poor profit and poor efficiency will often result in the closing of a plant, possibly relocating overseas resulting in a loss of jobs. Does the union claim any responsibility for that? Nooope.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
First I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. Mods please feel free to move. The American Welding Society had a link to this article from the Washington Examiner.

Even before Michigan passed a right-to-work law in 2012, U.S. car manufacturing was drifting south to places like Tennessee that had long had the law. A study shows just how far the shift has happened: An estimated 70 percent of domestic car and car parts manufacturing is now located in right-to-work states. That is the finding of a National Institute for Labor Relations Research analysis released Monday. Right-to-work laws prevent unions and businesses from negotiating contracts that require all of the business' employees to either belong to the union or at least pay it a fee. Currently 24 states have versions of the law.

considering just the 22 states that had adopted right to work prior to 2012, their share of auto manufacturing had grown from 36 percent in 2002 to 52 percent a decade later. In those same 22 states, real manufacturing GDP grew by 87 percent over the same 2002 to 2012 period. Meanwhile, it fell by a modest 2 percent in states that allowed "closed shop" union rules, excluding Michigan and Indiana.

Large majority of car manufacturing now in right-to-work states


The majority of these right to work states are in the south. Is this a southern revival? Is this good for the south or bad for workers in general? Are liberal policies to blame or are corporations being courted to take advantage of lower operating expenses like labor, taxes, environmental regulations and the pro business environment? Will there be an exodus of northern or western workers to follow?

NOt surprising, if one area makes it hard to do business, business will move elsewhere. This happens on national and international levels. It is an unintended consequence of those who want to make feel good "fairness" and "social justice" laws and high taxes to redistribute the wealth of he "evil businesses."

Don't want us here? Fine. We'll go elsewhere.

a reply to: bbracken677

Still calling bullcrap that non union workers make more money.

Proof or it's not true.

Say whatever you want unless you have data to back your claim I'll and many others will continue to believe otherwise.

Unions are nothing more then bullies.

I spent many years in the union and let me tell you they do nothing for the people today except take your money.

I also spent five years as a union steward to see if I can make a change no luck I asked the B.A one time at a meeting what do our dues go towards his answer was a little goes in the pot for the little guys and a majority goes for the dems election campaign but I'm a republican I tell him well your money is what we say you are??? I quit my position as steward and I want out of the union no problem but we are still going to take out union dues and give it to a charity of our liking, sure you will sure.



A union workers day in a nut shell:
Start work at 7 with a 30min meeting then work till 9 first break, go back to work and next thing you know it's time for 11 lunch break, 11:30 back to work man I'm busting my ass can't wait till my 1:00 break great need that break now it's time to head back to the yard to clean up my unused tools before I go home at 3:00.

So yes unions are destroying this country.
Lazy cry babies.

a reply to: thesaneone

I know people who work in dredging unions that love and have been treat very well for over 25 years so maybe you we're in a bad union?

Maybe union aren't bad but maybe the way they are run is.

a reply to: onequestion

The only reason people like unions is because they get paid to do nothing.

I believe I stated earlier in the thread that doo doo rolls downhill.

The workers in a union contribute very little to the degradation of this country compared to the big guys who run them.

The same stuff as trying to blame welfare recipients without considering "corporate welfare" for being destructive, consider how much less corporations would be able to sell if nobody got any help ever and you might be able to catch my meaning.

Getting paid for nothing is the American dream and also happens to be pretty much lined up with the ways of nature, but I am sure such a parallel is a tad beyond the ability of most to grasp.

But then all we are considered to be is "Human Resources" which means we are pretty much just property that isn't land or buildings or tools or machines or animals, which is referred to as "chattel", and the fact that the word resembles "cattle" I believe to be no accident.

History has a stutter, and intermittently Turet's Syndrome so we don't believe what we hear is actually what's being said....

a reply to: thesaneone

a reply to: liejunkie01

I worked for a union once. Sure, the pay was great, but after union dues, paying in to the pension fund, and also paying in to the insurance fund, I was bringing home about as much as a non union worker. Oh, did I mention that my local is so mired with politics that it's hard to even make one mistake and not be outcast? When you have known screw ups who are getting jobs over you because their daddy is on the board or a foreman, how is that fair? Nepotism. Oh, yeah, and they spent the pension fund. Twice. No reimbursment.

The bad guys are easy to spot, their unions are thriving.

Look around, see it for yourself, or deny what you see and flip to another channel.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: bbracken677

Still calling bullcrap that non union workers make more money.

Proof or it's not true.

Say whatever you want unless you have data to back your claim I'll and many others will continue to believe otherwise.

Thanks! I was wondering what it was specifically that you were calling bull crap.

Alabama auto makers

I will get back with more later. I found some data related to the auto industry, but that is not the industry I am most familiar with. Specifically that the difference between wages in Detroit and other northern auto plants were running slightly higher than those in the south...but then everyone knows the cost of living in the south is significantly lower than up north. Besides, that was just a straight north vs south comparison and not identified as union vs non union.


Laterz

a reply to: onequestion

This isnt what I was looking for, so back to the research, but I felt this was worth mentioning:

Many Volkswagen workers -- correctly -- look warily at the experience of Volkswagen’s only other U.S. plant, in New Stanton, Pennsylvania. The UAW organized the plant in 1978. Almost immediately, the workers went on strike. The plant lurched from strike to strike and shut down 10 years later. All the union members lost their jobs; the plant could not survive profitably as a UAW operation.

By the time you count in union dues, pay lost to strikes and jobs lost to poor union leadership there are serious issues with union income. The above quote was from an article about a plant in Tennessee where the upper management welcomes the union in but the employees are saying hell no. So no union. VW plant

a reply to: onequestion

One thing people think they “know” about unions is that once a union comes into a company that all employees automatically start getting “union scale” wages and benefits. Most people are surprised to learn that outside of a narrow range of construction-industry area-wide agreements (and even there you’ll find lots of “exceptions” to the rules) there is no such thing as “union scale”.

Unions and companies negotiate wages, benefits and other “hard” labor costs on a case-by-case basis. And while there are labor contracts (like the old-line UAW contracts in the auto industry – more on that in a minute) where wages and benefits are higher than average, most first time labor contracts entered today do not achieve large increases over the wages and benefits in place BEFORE the union came in. In fact the average wage increase in union contracts is actually LOWER than the average increase in non-union companies today.

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: onequestion

The only reason people like unions is because they get paid to do nothing.

Sure thing pal.

You know everything about them.

Bust my ass every single day. I really like it on the roof in the sunshine and 95 degree heat with high humidity. You probably couldnt hack it.

If you are lazy in the sheetmetal trade, you are jobless.

But what do I know, I only work as a sheetmetal worker?

Take your bs somewhere else.

a reply to: onequestion

Here is a paper, written in the 90s (yes, a bit dated, but the conclusions are correct)

Union / non-union differential and establishment size

In a nutshell it states that often larger companies will beat a union pay scale to keep the union out, whereas smaller companies offer lower wages thereby putting themselves in a position for unionization.

The problem I am running into is getting the hard numbers I want. Unfortunately the companies I know of are not posting their hourly pay scales on the web

One thing I have found, is that in general union pay is higher, but employee satisfaction is lower, job security is lower (with unionized jobs), and it depends heavily on what region in the US being discussed. Most of the data I am finding is related to UAW and auto firms with regional complications. That is not an industry I am familiar with and not the industry I referred to above. I am, however, finding references to large companies doing exactly as I stated above (providing superior pay and benefits to non-union plants). Most of the differential in union vs non-union where the union jobs pay more are in smaller companies.

Seems that "soft costs" of being unionized (such as lawyers fees) tend to be much higher than in non-unionized plants, ergo the higher pay does not really cost more. Follow that up with efficiency gains, no strike losses etc etc and it's a no brainer.

a reply to: liejunkie01

I think the industry in question vastly affects not only perceptions but realities as well regarding effectiveness.

I feel for you...if you are on the roof whether summer or winter, you deserve whatever you can get regarding pay.

With the United Paperworkers Union I dont think union vs non affects how hard you work as much as how modern is the facility you work in. The UPUI is a particularly weak union, simply due to past corruption, loss of membership and very poor leadership. They have a reputation for calling for a strike and then folding 2 weeks later when the union would be responsible for making strike payments. This crap leaves a bad taste in member's mouths.

At one time, unions were important and needed. These days not so much and in some industries not at all. I have no doubt that unions are valuable in some areas, but I am not familiar with those.

originally posted by: liejunkie01

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: onequestion

The only reason people like unions is because they get paid to do nothing.

Sure thing pal.

You know everything about them.

Bust my ass every single day. I really like it on the roof in the sunshine and 95 degree heat with high humidity. You probably couldnt hack it.

If you are lazy in the sheetmetal trade, you are jobless.

But what do I know, I only work as a sheetmetal worker?

Take your bs somewhere else.

Sorry if the truth stings.

May I suggest using a high SPF cover up on your face when your roofing in helps a lot at preventing burns but you sound like you know what your doing.

If your lazy in any job you should be fired.

a reply to: thesaneone

Sounds like you have experienced unions protecting bad workers... Unfortunately in many industries this used to be a significant problem. I assume that is still, at times, the case. I have heard anecdotal evidence of that happening with teacher unions. Sad that inept, poor teachers would be protected at the expense of our children.

a reply to: bbracken677


Plenty of times, we had a guy that drove down the highway shoulder in reverse hit a person standing in front of his car, pissed hot got suspended returned to work and was promoted to manager.


I know that some good unions exist but the majority of them are not our grandfathers union.

a reply to: bbracken677

Thanks for the response and I'm not calling bullcrap as a personal attack I just want to see the data.

Combing through your responses now.

a reply to: onequestion

I didnt take it personal... although my experiences were personal. I am not having any luck finding actual hard pay scales within the same industry for union vs non-union plants in the south. All I am getting are general stuff or at best north vs south which is hard to compare without taking into account cost of living. And most of that is auto related...which is not what I am looking for either.

Oh, and the quote related to manufacturing plants being negotiated on a case by case scenario is truth. I was involved in 2 attempted unionizations. Both failed badly. The first one I was an hourly employee, the 2nd I was a manager, at a different facility in a different state. Both plants had higher than union pay scales within hundreds of miles in same industry. A recurring theme from both was: At the negotiating table all is up for negotiating and you cannot count on negotiating starting with what you have now. Not how it works for first negotiations.

The 2nd one had an ultra modern pay system. Pay for skills and knowledge. Want a raise? Learn a new job, even if you dont change jobs you get a bump in hourly rate because you have shown the skills and knowledge to do a 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th job. The employees chose their own work schedule when the plant went from 3 - 8 hour shifts for 5 days to a 6 day 24 hour schedule. The employees were put into a room with various examples of what other companies had done and the employees were told "We dont care what schedule you choose or come up with. All we are interested in is running the plant 24 hours a day, 6 days a week".

They selected a rather unique schedule of 2 shifts on, one off that resulted in each employee getting 5 or 6 days off consecutively every month.

The union came in and got started by comparing their pay to a whole different industry. Then they claimed they would eliminate the stupid schedule we were making them work. LOL

The union lost the election by, oh, a slim 90+% margin. All we had to do was request union contracts from all the plants around and make them available to the employees. They got the truth on pay, the truth on control, the truth on dues...the whole 9 yards and they didn't like it one bit. Unionization fail...big time.

In a union shop the employees would never have had pay for skill and knowledge, never would have had a say in their work schedule. There were other examples where the employees would have lost out badly.

Contrary to popular opinion, most companies are not "the Devil". Some are actually responsible wardens of our economy and environment.