Which ideological mindset would you suggest in case of a rebulding after an apocalypse?

originally posted by: Expat888
True anarchy NOT the misguided / bastardized ideas that people think anarchy is.

The primary negative about anarchy is that it's so damned inefficient. The reason human beings pool their resources to create police and government and law is that it takes too much time and energy for everyone to do it themselves. Everybody's got to own a gun. Everybody has to deal with criminals by themselves. Everybody has to try to get the basic resources they need to survive.

You never have time to get anything done, and you certainly can't relax, ever.

a reply to: rickymouse

and lastly, plant some weed

a reply to: Metallicus

How about a main society of socialism/communism for basic necessities and priorities (meaning a focus on creating enough food, clothing, water, and shelter for every citizen), though the ultimate goal is for every human born to have access to education and then work to make a respectable human living, to attempt to eliminate the circumstances of a new citizen not being educated or skillful for any employment. And then pure capitalism for everything else. Then a mixture of stuff that is common now, like law and law enforcement. And then also if anyone wants they can leave this society to live outside its territory in an anarchistic fashion, because its hard to 'progress' under anarchy, and by 'progress' I mean turn ourselves into robots and genetically engineer dragons and make cool space ships and stuff.

originally posted by: rickymouse
First thing, plant potatoes, barley, and hopps.

Number two thing...... make homemade beer.

Third thing......make a still

Fourth thing....plant tobacco.

Fifth thing.....learn to make aspirin for the headaches.

Wow, Ricky.. if this was the last couple minutes of "The Time Machine"
I'd be nervous about which three books you'd be taking back wi' ye. LOL

Being a reasonably benign anarchist (libertardian) it's a stretch for me
to accept the stretch of there being a sustainable world with natural
resources, or a population capable of interacting after the Big Trauma.

On the other hand a direct bereavement from "Survival of the Twittest"
in any direction would be the right one.
I volunteer to re hone the Briggs and Stratton and rich out the carb for
ethanol... hey engines gotta have a sip too.

While we're at it I've got this 21 speed Gary Fisher and a PacSci DC big
motor. Laptop city. It'd be worth sore legs to hear what's on Des' mind
occasionally...
Now if the birds just stay up there and keep on bouncing packets.
PS is that one p or two in the beer flavor bud, bud?

EDIT:: OMG I almost forgot. CORN. Just for the beef you know

a reply to: derfreebie

Three books to bring back? Penthouse and playboy for the men and maybe cosmopolitan for the women. I may not be able to speak their language, and they may not be able to read, but they will understand these books. I need one for the women so they will see they have rights in the future. I will have them believing anything I tell them.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
PS, however I think it will be more like mad max

I suppose it's all dependent on what kind of nation state the tribes
allow to be morphed together into...

the nipping in the bud of power brokers never seemed to be a big
problem for a people not consumed by greed. If we start out as in
no need of increased creature comforts because there aren't any---

I personally would be quite happy with some thick blankets and sharp
tools. Maybe some buffalo jerky when it gets really cold outside, but
that's just me and the bark soup talking again.

21st century technology? I'd settle and be grateful for lawful and 18th
by the time I warp outa here.

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: derfreebie

Three books to bring back? Penthouse and playboy for the men and maybe cosmopolitan for the women. I may not be able to speak their language, and they may not be able to read, but they will understand these books. I need one for the women so they will see they have rights in the future. I will have them believing anything I tell them.

And... from which unicorn urinal dost one obtain this eternal
spring of fluoride? The last lady that believed half of what I told
her got half of everything after it was over.

It's almost a slam dunk where our society could head is somewhere
between Max and the last violent holdouts, to little hardworking
clearings in the forest that regularly get looted/pillaged/BLAM
snipers. And most of all I believe in the universal language of
warm milk with my cookies. mysteriously yawns for no reason...

Depending on the make-up of the people in the group, I think it most likely that we're looking at people who will carve settlements out of the forest around them and put down roots. Farming communities rather than hunter/gatherer societies like the Native Americans had.

I think any community like that will have to have a basic respect for property and feeling of shared responsibility for it. They'll have to do a good amount of communal work to bring in harvests and protect crops and livestock as well as prepare food and stores for winter. So, it should provide for a good spirit of sharing when and where needed as well as an atmosphere for trading skills, goods and services as needed to make sure everyone makes it through.

I also think we're looking at having to go back to a time when every child was precious. Unfortunately, this means that women will likely be looking at taking a more domestic role again as children are something only a woman can provide. Whether or not the women will use this as a means of holding their own sort of power in the community or whether it becomes a chain to put them down? Who can say.

a reply to: derfreebie

OOOh. Just think how popular you would be in the past with a cookie cookbook.

a reply to: Shadow1024

The idea of "the elite" is born from within, as you mention, based on capital, social, spiritual or [fill in the blank] wealth. We can't just get rid of a select group of folks. To quote an esurance commercial, "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works."

Humans are naturally greedy (as is the animal kingdom, in general). It's not necessarily a bad thing - survival of the fittest has its place. Unfortunately, in humans, a dichotomy exists - those who lead and those who follow. I think a utopian-based "government" is really the only solution, but we have not evolved beyond our own paradigms. Perhaps, in this world you describe, if man could tap into a higher potential of being (awaken some part of the brain, soul, etc.) then we may be able to move forward.

Here's an interesting article that discusses present paradigms of government in terms of how man is evolving beyond the "19th century" paradigms of wealth, territory, security and more. Perhaps there is hope, if we can just get through the next 100 years or so of human apathy, greed and self importance.

Age of Entropy - Why the New World Order Won't Be Orderly

Here's a short video of the author discussing his ideas, through a peer review of another book. Worth checking out!

I'd like to see a Discordian society be built from the ashes of this crumbling one... Never a dull moment in a discordian society

a reply to: RifRAAF

Nice!

Unfortunately, there is no money to be made by those in power...wait, whaaaat?

If we're going there, then I am compelled to submit to the FINAL authority of the ...


Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Ramen!

a reply to: Shadow1024

I would suggest a tribal system for that many people.

Globally, a monarchy.

currency would be a national coin worth its weight in its precious metal.

Everything else would be up to the different tribes.

All would answer to the crown for inter tribal issues.

a reply to: tadaman

Point of order.

Do we have to vote them off the country?...'cause that ain't working for voting them on the country!

a reply to: jrflipjr

I dont understand.

The monarchy? Are they voted upon?

No. There is no democracy on a global scale. Only on a tribal level if that is what that particular tribe wants.

The monarchy is in power by it taking power. A good king is raised up to kingship or overthrown by a better one.

A theocracy...

Praise Bob...

a reply to: tadaman

I understand.

However, a tribal system can be democratic ( Ref. the TV hit show "Survivor") - as long as there are viewers and ads.

A monarchy is not a bad idea!

a reply to: Shadow1024

I would hope that a few individuals were able to download all the information available on the internet and put it on USB sticks and somehow manage to take a few laptops and power sources. That way we don't have to start from scratch. BUT...here's a good chance to change some things:

As for the political/governance part I would have a council of scientists running the show with direct democracy involving everyone.
I would go back to the gold standard to back what every currency goes into effect. Maybe a bartering system, but this can be tricky in determining fair market value for trading. This is why we ended up with the gold standard.
As for law and order, There should be a police force that is part of the community and not against them. There should be a judicial council to determine one's legal fate. Not at the discretion of one person. Therapy/counseling instead of imprisonment (unless they were psychotic murderers) should be the way to go.
Form of organization? Something like the Kibbutz system in Israel. Everyone shares in the daily struggle of life. Everyone is looking after everybody's children and keeping a check on everyone else.
Safety Net? Well food, water, and shelter are the main things that drive survival. If it's a cooperative, then reserves of excess production should be stored, saved, or preserved in case of emergencies. Communally or individually.
Constitutional Safeguards? I would have the Scientific Council examine the U.S. Constitution and remove all the Draconian amendments and pork barrel insertions.
How about religion? None. Atheist. If we can create a pretty good utopia, then people would not be in despair and seeking an escape or answer from a fictional entity.

Disclaimer: These are just my wild thoughts and are solely to respond to the OP. Please do not attempt to berate or breakdown my opinions as I am still trying to figure out life and still learning.

a reply to: Shadow1024

I need input of such people for purposes of game scenario

Very interesting questions.

For a gaming scenario, I'd go for a twisted communist ideology; an environment where a leader tries to maintain equality at the end of a gun. Thinking Pol Pot and his psycho idea to rewind time to Year Zero and make everyone a farmer whether their land could sustain agriculture...or not (you're executed).

It could be a good scenario because it'd be set in a world with standing cities and broken roads. Naturally the crazy leader would accrue technology and use it to stifle the populace and maintain their own comfy life-style.

*********
In reality, I suspect we could rewind time, reset the social button or even start from a post-war setting and we'd eventually develop the same systems we have now. All the social drivers that led to us living in growing communities and eventually producing coinage are inevitable. Economics naturally reflect the left/right biases that are inbuilt into our DNA...so depressing...sigh...

An extremely Leftist world would be equally as hellish and murderous as an extremely Rightist world. Great in gaming worlds although you'd lose a lot of the market that identifies strongly with either ideology.

originally posted by: Kratos40
a reply to: Shadow1024

I would hope that a few individuals were able to download all the information available on the internet and put it on USB sticks and somehow manage to take a few laptops and power sources. That way we don't have to start from scratch. BUT...here's a good chance to change some things:

As for the political/governance part I would have a council of scientists running the show with direct democracy involving everyone.
I would go back to the gold standard to back what every currency goes into effect. Maybe a bartering system, but this can be tricky in determining fair market value for trading. This is why we ended up with the gold standard.
As for law and order, There should be a police force that is part of the community and not against them. There should be a judicial council to determine one's legal fate. Not at the discretion of one person. Therapy/counseling instead of imprisonment (unless they were psychotic murderers) should be the way to go.
Form of organization? Something like the Kibbutz system in Israel. Everyone shares in the daily struggle of life. Everyone is looking after everybody's children and keeping a check on everyone else.
Safety Net? Well food, water, and shelter are the main things that drive survival. If it's a cooperative, then reserves of excess production should be stored, saved, or preserved in case of emergencies. Communally or individually.
Constitutional Safeguards? I would have the Scientific Council examine the U.S. Constitution and remove all the Draconian amendments and pork barrel insertions.
How about religion? None. Atheist. If we can create a pretty good utopia, then people would not be in despair and seeking an escape or answer from a fictional entity.

Disclaimer: These are just my wild thoughts and are solely to respond to the OP. Please do not attempt to berate or breakdown my opinions as I am still trying to figure out life and still learning.

Problem 1: [Kratos]
-if you have a council of scientist (and this council of scientist hires a few typical economist)
-economists generally prescribe for new neoclassical synthesis (en.wikipedia.org...) which clearly supports fiat currency and central bank that actively manipulates fiat currencies to mitigate crises
-so effectively those economists would advice you to scrap gold standard

Problem 2: [Kratos, Tadaman]
-You have plenty of people who were complaining that they are ruled by an evil tiny clique of unelected people. Would an unelectable group of scientists / king serve as paranoia fuel and cause outrage? And would be used to be blamed for everything that goes wrong?

Kandinsky:
Here is an additional twist - I don't ask general population, I ask non-mainstream people who are on such forum.
If for game purposes I would create a grimmer version of their visions and ideas, I would first need to know what their visions are.

So far that I learnt:
-Lot's of anarchist. Building any society of them would be challenging.
-Quite a few idealistic spiritual people. Under right condition there could be some New Age cults evolving in to theocracies. (not necessary a bad thing, it provides some social cohesion, but for sure for game purposes interesting)
-Very few people who would actually offer a political solution (what if you take in to account how people on this forum express their dissatisfaction with contemporary political systems, one would expect that they have an idea of some alternative)

I absolutely agree that some features of society seems being inherent. With your sentence "we'd eventually develop the same systems we have now" I'd say that I agree in 80%. There are many things that can be changed.
For example:
- in the USA there is political system where winner takes it all in one area and there is only place for 2 parties. There is more confrontation we vs. they.
- in Europe (except maybe the UK) the algorithm of counting votes allows more parties. There is more cooperation (and deals behind scenes) in building coalitions.

If you build a political system from scratch you may even unintentionally move it in a different direction.