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How to Rear Children for a Life in Prison: cold, harsh, detached, rigid, insensitive, distant, abusi
page: 2share:
a reply to: infoseeker26754
You certainly have a hard-earned personal perspective from your school of hard knocks!
I think we need to define our terms better. We are not talking about the same sort of ATTACHMENT VS DETACHMENT, imho.
1. HEALTHY ATTACHMENT = SOLID, SECURE EMOTIONAL BONDING TO PARENTAL FIGURES THE FIRST 0-6 YEARS OF LIFE.
2. WITHOUT that . . . the child is literally physiologically BRAIN DAMAGED--in the areas of the brain which manage EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION and which manage RELATIONSHIPS. MRI studies have affirmed this as a physiological result of ATTACHMENT DISORDER--or, put another way--TOO MUCH DETACHMENT from parental figures for the child to FEEL SECURE, OF WORTH, INDEPENDENT, VALUED, HOPEFUL etc.
3. Those children, as a group [there are always individual exceptions], have:
(A) Feelings of Low self-worth, hopelessness, worthlessness, some--even learned helplessness.
(B) They will have chronic problems in expressing EMOTIONS--excessively angry, hurt, bewildered, frustrated, helpless, despairing etc. and spewing such feelings all over those around them and/or keeping such feelings inside--getting despairingly depressed--suicidal and/or blowing up periodically when the inner pressure is too much.
(C) They will have chronic problems with/in all their major relationships--marriage, work, closer friendships. They will be too demanding; too clingy; or too distant; too detached; too unconnected; too afraid to be vulnerable; too afraid to give themselves freely to a loved one authentically sexually and emotionally; TOO !!!CONTROLLING!!! etc.
Sometimes such folks can be a matched set in terms of their pathologies such that their relationship will endure. Or, they can work things out over time and their relationships can endure. Mostly, their relationships TYPICALLY do not last very close for very many years. 1.5-3, maybe 5 or so years is probably common.
(D) They tend to be prey to addictions of every stripe--workaholism, alcoholism, drugs, perfectionism, bitterness, anger, rage-aholism, resentment, unforgiveness, idolatries of various people--and/or things--sports teams or figures--Hollyweed idols; rich people, etc. They vainly fantasize that IF they could be perfect enough or like XYZ idolized person, THEN they'd REALLY FINALLY BE WORTH something!
(E) &/or they DROP-OUT of the mainstream and make do in the counter-culture, the drug culture, the crime culture etc. finding more of a sense of FAMILY and BELONGING therein. They find chaotic surviving by their street sense and wits easier than managing jobs and relationships in the conventional culture.
4. They repeat more or less the same ATTACHMENT DISORDER CREATING mistakes of their parents upon their kids. And the beat goes on.
5. DETACHMENT in my meaning on this thread means TOO EMOTIONALLY DETACHED FROM PARENTAL FIGURES THE FIRST 0-6 years of life. It's another way of wording, labeling ATTACHMENT DISORDER.
6. AND THE PHENOMENON IS A MATTER OF DEGREE AND TYPE.
Here's one of Dr Bruce Perry's great articles on the topic:
childrenneedfamilies.blogspot.com...
Here's my original thread on the topic:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
= = =
IMPACT OF ABUSE AND NEGLECT ON THE DEVELOPING BRAIN--Dr Bruce Perry:
www.attachmentdisorder.net...
= = =
I'm not referring to any of the literature above--just off the top of my head. I may be leaving something out but it's a fair representation of the realities involved.
You certainly have a hard-earned personal perspective from your school of hard knocks!
I think we need to define our terms better. We are not talking about the same sort of ATTACHMENT VS DETACHMENT, imho.
1. HEALTHY ATTACHMENT = SOLID, SECURE EMOTIONAL BONDING TO PARENTAL FIGURES THE FIRST 0-6 YEARS OF LIFE.
2. WITHOUT that . . . the child is literally physiologically BRAIN DAMAGED--in the areas of the brain which manage EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION and which manage RELATIONSHIPS. MRI studies have affirmed this as a physiological result of ATTACHMENT DISORDER--or, put another way--TOO MUCH DETACHMENT from parental figures for the child to FEEL SECURE, OF WORTH, INDEPENDENT, VALUED, HOPEFUL etc.
3. Those children, as a group [there are always individual exceptions], have:
(A) Feelings of Low self-worth, hopelessness, worthlessness, some--even learned helplessness.
(B) They will have chronic problems in expressing EMOTIONS--excessively angry, hurt, bewildered, frustrated, helpless, despairing etc. and spewing such feelings all over those around them and/or keeping such feelings inside--getting despairingly depressed--suicidal and/or blowing up periodically when the inner pressure is too much.
(C) They will have chronic problems with/in all their major relationships--marriage, work, closer friendships. They will be too demanding; too clingy; or too distant; too detached; too unconnected; too afraid to be vulnerable; too afraid to give themselves freely to a loved one authentically sexually and emotionally; TOO !!!CONTROLLING!!! etc.
Sometimes such folks can be a matched set in terms of their pathologies such that their relationship will endure. Or, they can work things out over time and their relationships can endure. Mostly, their relationships TYPICALLY do not last very close for very many years. 1.5-3, maybe 5 or so years is probably common.
(D) They tend to be prey to addictions of every stripe--workaholism, alcoholism, drugs, perfectionism, bitterness, anger, rage-aholism, resentment, unforgiveness, idolatries of various people--and/or things--sports teams or figures--Hollyweed idols; rich people, etc. They vainly fantasize that IF they could be perfect enough or like XYZ idolized person, THEN they'd REALLY FINALLY BE WORTH something!
(E) &/or they DROP-OUT of the mainstream and make do in the counter-culture, the drug culture, the crime culture etc. finding more of a sense of FAMILY and BELONGING therein. They find chaotic surviving by their street sense and wits easier than managing jobs and relationships in the conventional culture.
4. They repeat more or less the same ATTACHMENT DISORDER CREATING mistakes of their parents upon their kids. And the beat goes on.
5. DETACHMENT in my meaning on this thread means TOO EMOTIONALLY DETACHED FROM PARENTAL FIGURES THE FIRST 0-6 years of life. It's another way of wording, labeling ATTACHMENT DISORDER.
6. AND THE PHENOMENON IS A MATTER OF DEGREE AND TYPE.
Here's one of Dr Bruce Perry's great articles on the topic:
childrenneedfamilies.blogspot.com...
Children need love, care, and safety; they need families
The Greatest terror a child can have is that he is not loved, and rejection is the hell of fears...... And, with rejection comes anger, and with anger some kind of crime in revenge for the rejection, and with crime, guilt - and there is the story of humankind. John Steinbeck, East of Eden
Friday, February 12, 2010
Bonding and Attachment in Maltreated Children - Bruce Perry
The most important property of humankind is the capacity to form and maintain relationships. These relationships are absolutely necessary for any of us to survive, learn, work, love, and procreate. Human relationships take many forms but the most intense, most pleasurable and most painful are those relationships with family, friends and loved ones. Within this inner circle of intimate relationships, we are bonded to each other with "emotional glue" — bonded with love.
Each individual's ability to form and maintain relationships using this "emotional glue" is different. Some people seem "naturally" capable of loving. They form numerous intimate and caring relationships and, in doing so, get pleasure. Others are not so lucky. They feel no "pull" to form intimate relationships, find little pleasure in being with or close to others. They have few, if any, friends, and more distant, less emotional glue with family. In extreme cases an individual may have no intact emotional bond to any other person. They are self-absorbed, aloof, or may even present with classic neuropsychiatric signs of being schizoid or autistic.
The capacity and desire to form emotional relationships is related to the organization and functioning of specific parts of the human brain. Just as the brain allows us to see, smell, taste, think, talk, and move, it is the organ that allows us to love — or not. The systems in the human brain that allow us to form and maintain emotional relationships develop during infancy and the first years of life. Experiences during this early vulnerable period of life are critical to shaping the capacity to form intimate and emotionally healthy relationships. Empathy, caring, sharing, inhibition of aggression, capacity to love, and a host of other characteristics of a healthy, happy, and productive person are related to the core attachment capabilities which are formed in infancy and early childhood.
Here's my original thread on the topic:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
= = =
IMPACT OF ABUSE AND NEGLECT ON THE DEVELOPING BRAIN--Dr Bruce Perry:
www.attachmentdisorder.net...
These areas organize during development and change in the mature brain in a "use-dependent" fashion. The more a certain neural system is activated, the more it will "build-in" this neural state -- what occurs in this process is the creation of an "internal representation" of the experience corresponding to the neural activation. This "use-dependent" capacity to make an "internal representation" of the external or internal world is the basis for learning and memory. The simple and unavoidable result of this sequential neurodevelopment is that the organizing, "sensitive" brain of an infant or young child is more malleable to experience than a mature brain. While experience may alter and change the functioning of an adult, experience literally provides the organizing framework for an infant and child.
The brain is most plastic (receptive to environmental input) in early childhood. The consequence of sequential development is that as different regions are organizing, they require specific kinds of experience targeting the region’s specific function (e.g., visual input while the visual system is organizing) in order to develop normally. These times during development are called critical or sensitive periods.
Traumatic Experiences and Development
With optimal experiences, the brain develops healthy, flexible and diverse capabilities. When there is disruption of the timing, intensity, quality or quantity of normal developmental experiences, however, there may be devastating impact...
= = =
I'm not referring to any of the literature above--just off the top of my head. I may be leaving something out but it's a fair representation of the realities involved.
CONTINUED FROM MY LAST when I ran out of characters:
The following from
www.amazon.com...
ATTACHMENTS: Why You Love, Feel, and Act the Way You Do
by Drs Tim Clinton & Gary Sibcy
p15:
emphases added in all the following quotes
p23:
p 24
THE GRID [formatted into one column]:
p35
p76
Clinton and Sibcy take a chapter to discuss each of the above 4 attachment styles. The book is well worth getting. Their discussion is as good as that of Dr Bruce Perry.
.
The following from
www.amazon.com...
ATTACHMENTS: Why You Love, Feel, and Act the Way You Do
by Drs Tim Clinton & Gary Sibcy
p15:
emphases added in all the following quotes
Unthinking confidence in the unfailing accessibility and support of attachment figures is the bedrock on which stable and self-reliant personality is built.
--John Bowlby--an early pioneer in the field.
p23:
The first set of core beliefs, or relationship rules, form the self-dimension.
It centers around two critical
QUESTIONS:
1. Am I worthy of being loved?
2. Am I competent to get the love I need?
The second set of beliefs form the other-dimension.
It also centers around two important
QUESTIONS:
1. Are others reliable and trustworthy [generally speaking]?
2. Are others accessible and willing to respond to me when I need them to be?
Based on your responses to each set of the questions above, your sense of self is either positive or negative. Likewise, your sense of other is either positive or negative. By combining the four possible combinations of self and other dimensions, a four-category grid . . . emerges. [6]
[6]This grid is adapted from K. Bartholomew, "Avoidance of Intimacy: An Attachment Perspective," Journal of Social and Personal Relationships 7 (1990): 147-178
p 24
THE GRID [formatted into one column]:
SECURE ATTACHMENT STYLE
POSITIVE SELF/POSITIVE OTHER
AVOIDANT ATTACHMENT STYLE
POSITIVE SELF/NEGATIVE OTHER
AMBIVALENT ATTACHMENT STYLE
NEGATIVE SELF/POSITIVE OTHER
DISORGANIZED ATTACHMENT STYLE
NEGATIVE SELF/NEGATIVE OTHER
p35
A child can be the object of much affection [I'd say it depends] and still not feel loved. Feeling loved and being heard are so similar, it's difficult to distinguish between the two. --Fran Stott
p76
Comparison of Attachment Styles
SECURE ATTACHMENT STYLE
Self Dimension
*I am worthy of love.
*I am capable of getting the love and support I need.
Other Dimension
*Others are willing and able to love me.
AMBIVALENT ATTACHMENT STYLE
Self dimension
*I am not worthy of love.
*I am not capable of getting the love I need without being angry and clingy.
Other Dimension
*Others are capable of meeting my needs but might not do so because of my flaws.
*Others are trustworthy and reliable but might abandon me because of my worthlessness.
AVOIDANT ATTACHMENT STYLE
Self-Dimension
*I am worthy of love.
*I am capable of getting the love and support I need.
Other Dimension
*Others are either unwilling or incapable of loving me.
*Others are not trustworthy, they are unreliable when it comes to meeting my needs.
DISORGANIZED ATTACHMENT STYLE
Self Dimension
*I am not worthy of love.
*I am not capable of getting the love I need without being angry and clingy.
Other Dimension
*Others are unable to meet my needs
*Others are not trustworthy or reliable.
*Others are abusive and I deserve it.
Clinton and Sibcy take a chapter to discuss each of the above 4 attachment styles. The book is well worth getting. Their discussion is as good as that of Dr Bruce Perry.
.
edit on 19/6/2014 by BO XIAN because: formatting the grid into one column
edit on 19/6/2014 by BO XIAN because:
tag
edit on 19/6/2014 by BO XIAN because: formatting.
a reply to: infoseeker26754
One of the main findings of ATTACHMENT DISORDER research is that
children who are victims of ATTACHMENT DISORDER
are NOT able in a lastingly healthy, life-long productive and constructive way
TO BE TRULY CONFIDENT AND INDEPENDENT individuals. I think THAT is what you mean by DETACHMENT in most respects--to be able to act independently.
But the facts are that adults who have significant ATTACHMENT DISORDER 0-6 years old--as a group--the vast near total majority of them--will NOT BE ABLE to be confident and independent individuals in their work, family, social relationships.
One of the main findings of ATTACHMENT DISORDER research is that
children who are victims of ATTACHMENT DISORDER
are NOT able in a lastingly healthy, life-long productive and constructive way
TO BE TRULY CONFIDENT AND INDEPENDENT individuals. I think THAT is what you mean by DETACHMENT in most respects--to be able to act independently.
But the facts are that adults who have significant ATTACHMENT DISORDER 0-6 years old--as a group--the vast near total majority of them--will NOT BE ABLE to be confident and independent individuals in their work, family, social relationships.
originally posted by: Restricted
Geez, I should be a convict according to the OP.
All one armed typists are slower typists.
Not all slow typists are one armed.
~95% of all prison inmates have serious degrees of ATTACHMENT DISORDER.
Not all people with even serious degrees of ATTACHMENT DISORDER end up in prison.
Some are very wealthy and successful in business with a string of damaged relationships in their wake and children who hate them.
a reply to: Restricted
Not everyone shatters inside, some become more aware, usually after spending some down time recovering and somewhat dysfunctional. Alot of variable factors, such as, did the child receive a strong sense of Love, being accepted as they are, from at least one solid place. One person can make a big difference! Also, relating to a family I knew with 3 girls, all subjected to abuse and traumatic childhood. They all became messed up, but the oldest one, had the highest IQ, and she was really damaging to her baby and older autistic child. It was all reported. And some intervention but took a long time for her to finally lose custody. The infant boy was born by caesarean and she totally ignored him. We found out that she was halfing the formula and bought him new, and took over, and she kept saying she had changed him, so we bathed him when she went out. She was staying for a couple weeks, can't remember why but think it may have been a fire in her trailer. He hadn't been changed and had raw open wounds on his testicles. The only time she talked to him was to say, shaking him a bit, "they had to take a big knife and they had to cut".
She also had a social worker check up and we informed her quickly, the child taken to the hospital, and yet they were all returned to that trailer or another, and the austic girl would run around in circles and every now and then say, "bad mommy!". It was horrific. Even after all of that, the social workers didn't take those kids for several years, though we heard more terrible things, such as being forced to eat food with strep throat and then forced on rice in the corner as punishment.
Now, she was the brightest and the most psychotic. Why?
For some I think it is so unbelievable to them to go through abuse without help for years themselve, they keep trying to get help and it shatters them. The brighter you are the more you cannot accept or believe this could even be happening, why? why is this happening?
I'm very worried her son may turn into a killer himself, "they had to grab a big knife and cut".
I don't judge other people, though you have to protect yourself and your family. But Anita Moorjani in her NDE, and videos stresses that we don't forgive others, on the other side we "understand" them, and realize if we went through what they went through as they are, their unique selves and dna, we stand a very large chance of turning out just like them.
We need understanding and compassion as much intervention as possible. We need healing centers for kids and teenagers and adults.
Not everyone shatters inside, some become more aware, usually after spending some down time recovering and somewhat dysfunctional. Alot of variable factors, such as, did the child receive a strong sense of Love, being accepted as they are, from at least one solid place. One person can make a big difference! Also, relating to a family I knew with 3 girls, all subjected to abuse and traumatic childhood. They all became messed up, but the oldest one, had the highest IQ, and she was really damaging to her baby and older autistic child. It was all reported. And some intervention but took a long time for her to finally lose custody. The infant boy was born by caesarean and she totally ignored him. We found out that she was halfing the formula and bought him new, and took over, and she kept saying she had changed him, so we bathed him when she went out. She was staying for a couple weeks, can't remember why but think it may have been a fire in her trailer. He hadn't been changed and had raw open wounds on his testicles. The only time she talked to him was to say, shaking him a bit, "they had to take a big knife and they had to cut".
She also had a social worker check up and we informed her quickly, the child taken to the hospital, and yet they were all returned to that trailer or another, and the austic girl would run around in circles and every now and then say, "bad mommy!". It was horrific. Even after all of that, the social workers didn't take those kids for several years, though we heard more terrible things, such as being forced to eat food with strep throat and then forced on rice in the corner as punishment.
Now, she was the brightest and the most psychotic. Why?
For some I think it is so unbelievable to them to go through abuse without help for years themselve, they keep trying to get help and it shatters them. The brighter you are the more you cannot accept or believe this could even be happening, why? why is this happening?
I'm very worried her son may turn into a killer himself, "they had to grab a big knife and cut".
I don't judge other people, though you have to protect yourself and your family. But Anita Moorjani in her NDE, and videos stresses that we don't forgive others, on the other side we "understand" them, and realize if we went through what they went through as they are, their unique selves and dna, we stand a very large chance of turning out just like them.
We need understanding and compassion as much intervention as possible. We need healing centers for kids and teenagers and adults.
edit on 19-6-2014 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)
This entire system seems to be set up to ensure a good many children are desensitized, bullied, neglected, subjected to harshness, reactiveness,
anger, and even outright abuses to break them. And social workers, intervention often doesnt intervene when needed, but picks on relatively normal
families that just need support. I've seen way too much.
Its all done by design IMO. And alot of people think tough love is the answer, or harshness or disciplinarian tactics, but it actually misfires often. Fear isn't a good way to create well behaved adults, they might be quiet as young children, but they'll be reacting as teens.
Its all done by design IMO. And alot of people think tough love is the answer, or harshness or disciplinarian tactics, but it actually misfires often. Fear isn't a good way to create well behaved adults, they might be quiet as young children, but they'll be reacting as teens.
edit on
19-6-2014 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Unity_99
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
1. Life is complex.
2. ATTACHMENT DISORDER causing factors are simple and complex.
3. The results are complex.
4. The situations over adulthood that the results occur in are complex.
5. Society's response is complex and usually dysfunctional far too often.
6. Social services agencies do a lot of good AND a lot of harm--by neglect and by their officials and agents being horribly dysfunctional far too often, themselves.
7. There is a RANGE of ATTACHMENT DISORDER degrees and types AND a RANGE of results that occur in a RANGE of contexts with a complex range of interactions.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
1. Life is complex.
2. ATTACHMENT DISORDER causing factors are simple and complex.
3. The results are complex.
4. The situations over adulthood that the results occur in are complex.
5. Society's response is complex and usually dysfunctional far too often.
6. Social services agencies do a lot of good AND a lot of harm--by neglect and by their officials and agents being horribly dysfunctional far too often, themselves.
7. There is a RANGE of ATTACHMENT DISORDER degrees and types AND a RANGE of results that occur in a RANGE of contexts with a complex range of interactions.
originally posted by: Unity_99
This entire system seems to be set up to ensure a good many children are desensitized, bullied, neglected, subjected to harshness, reactiveness, anger, and even outright abuses to break them.
I AGREE. The oligarchy hates families and wants compliant mindless cogs in their great machine . . . numb serfs and slaves doing their robotized bidding without much fuss or awareness.
And social workers, intervention often doesnt intervene when needed, but picks on relatively normal families that just need support. I've seen way too much.
Its all done by design IMO.
I agree. But I think it's well above most social workers' pay grade. I think most of them mean well and try to do well.
And, a lot of research indicates that except when the abuse is super physical and horrific, a lot of kids do better in even a dysfunctional birth family than if they are taken out of it. And a lot of social workers do not know where to draw that line.
Also, a lot of them are terribly overworked with a long list of horrible situations to deal with.
And alot of people think tough love is the answer, or harshness or disciplinarian tactics, but it actually misfires often. Fear isn't a good way to create well behaved adults, they might be quiet as young children, but they'll be reacting as teens.
I THOROUGHLY AGREE. REACTIONARY ABUSIVE PARENTING OF THAT SORT IS SUPER COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE. Parents must learn to apply the Golden Rule with their kids at an early age. THAT indicates caring and a desire to bond with a cherished child.
Thanks for your great points.
Blessings,
a reply to: Restricted
It's interesting.
My Jr High Principal said something curious to me . . . I was in his office because of a bully threatening me. He gave the bully short shrift and sent him on his way.
For some inexplicable reason, he told me that I'd likely be in jail or prison before I was 18.
I'd never been in trouble with the school, at all.
He was probably aware that I showed up to trampoline team/class with belt whelts on my legs. The coach asked where I got those. I told him from my step-dad because I'd neglected to cut my toast. The coach acted furious in response. I assumed he was furious with me. I learned a decade or 2 later that he was furious with my step-dad.
I wonder if the Principal is still alive. He'd probably not remember but I'd love to ask him why he said that to me. Maybe it was his experience with ATTACHMENT DISORDERed kids . . . regardless of whether they'd ever acted out, or not.
Thankfully, I never acted out in such ways . . . and got my PhD in clinical psych instead of going to prison. I WAS glad to be done with 20 or so years of schooling! LOL.
It's interesting.
My Jr High Principal said something curious to me . . . I was in his office because of a bully threatening me. He gave the bully short shrift and sent him on his way.
For some inexplicable reason, he told me that I'd likely be in jail or prison before I was 18.
I'd never been in trouble with the school, at all.
He was probably aware that I showed up to trampoline team/class with belt whelts on my legs. The coach asked where I got those. I told him from my step-dad because I'd neglected to cut my toast. The coach acted furious in response. I assumed he was furious with me. I learned a decade or 2 later that he was furious with my step-dad.
I wonder if the Principal is still alive. He'd probably not remember but I'd love to ask him why he said that to me. Maybe it was his experience with ATTACHMENT DISORDERed kids . . . regardless of whether they'd ever acted out, or not.
Thankfully, I never acted out in such ways . . . and got my PhD in clinical psych instead of going to prison. I WAS glad to be done with 20 or so years of schooling! LOL.
edit on 20/6/2014 by BO XIAN because: added
I came out of my experience bipolar with psychotic features. My mother was extremely emotionally and verbally abusive.
I ended up being a prison guard. I worked with mentally ill inmates and loved it because I could relate to them. It was very satisfying to help them solve their problems.
I like to think I was a bit of kindness in their horrifying world.
I ended up being a prison guard. I worked with mentally ill inmates and loved it because I could relate to them. It was very satisfying to help them solve their problems.
I like to think I was a bit of kindness in their horrifying world.
a reply to: Restricted
That sounds like a wonderful learning from and using your traumas in a constructive, meaningful way. Congrats.
That sounds like a wonderful learning from and using your traumas in a constructive, meaningful way. Congrats.
a reply to: BO XIAN
The only difference is your info comes from books, and that is some of the problems today. Most info from books have been written down since the dawn of time and haven't been changed except for reprinting.
And you need to consider that even most tests done are a very small group of children and parents. Lets play with 2,500; 500 in a group so 5 different groups with different backgrounds! Yet, there is 7 Bil People, actually more but lets go bake say 10 yrs. Even if one does the math, very slim chance the book has any real data.
Of course, the book will bring up other studys done; In the Past, to add to the total so lets go 1%. And thats pushing it! Might as well add the idea that 2,500 people tested for said Drug means it's Okay for Everybody. In this Age of understanding, it take only 2,500 people/children/pets, name it and WOW! Instant Data already passed down as Facts relating to anything.
Thats how it goes in todays world. Some parents read a book, since data is fact. It must be Truth. Yet so far, How many Children run the streets? How many Parents wonder WTF just Happen? Now if one wants to Learn any info and compare data, time to hit the Streets!
You could go with how many people in prison got their butts kicked while being a child? Not like Social Services claim, We All Beat Our Children! Now if any Parent does Anything, all one has to do is call and its the child doing it! Would be surprised just how much Children know How to work the System! Plus the fact all schools included at least 1 Social Worker, plus at least 2 at any Hospital!
So what we actually have is a system set up for Parents to Fail, Books written in some fancy notions that sound good only never relate to what is really happening in this world. Since Laws were passed to protect Children, we never Hear from any child, just some person who never had any kids of their own or having the same problems and think they found a way.
Now if we could Just get an young adult to open up and speak, Oh Yea, Who listens to children anymore! Since Parents Need to start doing this again.
Peace
The only difference is your info comes from books, and that is some of the problems today. Most info from books have been written down since the dawn of time and haven't been changed except for reprinting.
And you need to consider that even most tests done are a very small group of children and parents. Lets play with 2,500; 500 in a group so 5 different groups with different backgrounds! Yet, there is 7 Bil People, actually more but lets go bake say 10 yrs. Even if one does the math, very slim chance the book has any real data.
Of course, the book will bring up other studys done; In the Past, to add to the total so lets go 1%. And thats pushing it! Might as well add the idea that 2,500 people tested for said Drug means it's Okay for Everybody. In this Age of understanding, it take only 2,500 people/children/pets, name it and WOW! Instant Data already passed down as Facts relating to anything.
Thats how it goes in todays world. Some parents read a book, since data is fact. It must be Truth. Yet so far, How many Children run the streets? How many Parents wonder WTF just Happen? Now if one wants to Learn any info and compare data, time to hit the Streets!
You could go with how many people in prison got their butts kicked while being a child? Not like Social Services claim, We All Beat Our Children! Now if any Parent does Anything, all one has to do is call and its the child doing it! Would be surprised just how much Children know How to work the System! Plus the fact all schools included at least 1 Social Worker, plus at least 2 at any Hospital!
So what we actually have is a system set up for Parents to Fail, Books written in some fancy notions that sound good only never relate to what is really happening in this world. Since Laws were passed to protect Children, we never Hear from any child, just some person who never had any kids of their own or having the same problems and think they found a way.
Now if we could Just get an young adult to open up and speak, Oh Yea, Who listens to children anymore! Since Parents Need to start doing this again.
Peace
OP, have you read "The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog" by Bruce Perry and Maia Szalavitz ? Maybe you have since that is your topic. For others who have
not, this was a really fascinating book about some kids who did not become attached. Each one had different circumstances. One boy's babysitter got
another job and was only pretending she was babysitting him. Meanwhile, he was alone in a crib all day for months. Another boy was left alone in the
house most of the day by his low-IQ mom who couldn't handle taking care of a baby without help. The boy from the title who was raised as a dog was
kept in a cage by a dog breeder who was just didn't know what else to do with him.
There are some other stories, too. I highly recommend the book to anyone who is interested in this topic.
Sal
a reply to: BO XIAN
There are some other stories, too. I highly recommend the book to anyone who is interested in this topic.
Sal
a reply to: BO XIAN
edit on 20-6-2014 by SallieSunshine because: (no reason given)
a reply to: infoseeker26754
Actually, imho, your dissing of the books about ATTACHMENT DISORDER misses the mark.
1. ATTACHMENT RESEARCH BEGAN DECADES AGO WITH REAL LIFE FAMILIES AND RESEARCH IN THE LAB WITH REAL FAMILIES.
2. In many respects, the data derived is closer to the Scandinavian actuarial statistics than limited studies. You might be aware that Scandinavian countries typically keep stats on everyone. So they are not dealing with a SAMPLING of the population. Their statistics COME FROM THE POPULATION as a whole.
3. Regardless of what country the research was done in or whether it was a whole population study or a sampled study--the results are essentially the same.
4. In many respects, ATTACHMENT DISORDER research is the most reality based; experientially real, validated, derived; grass roots sorts of psychological and sociological research I know of.
5. It is FAR from a limited ivory tower perspective. It deals with masses of real life data from real families from every walk of life; every socio-economic perspective; every religious perspective; every addiction perspective etc.
6. On top of that, I have my own perspective from watching intensely more than 3,000 students and asking them rather intense questions etc. for more than 30 years. Add to that all the counselees over the same time period. All my observations and experiences are quite affirming and congruent with the literature.
7. The only significant quibble was illustrated by a dialogue I had with a fellow professor. I asked him what percentage of the population he felt had significant ATTACHMENT DISORDER. He quoted the figure in a lot of the research: 20%. I said I thought that was wrong--that it was closer to 80% or higher.
8. Then we checked our definitions. I said that I thought significant ATTACHMENT DISORDER was where individuals as adults had major problems in relationships, self worth etc. as a function of poor parenting. He agreed that if that was the definition, the the percentage would be closer to 80% or higher.
9. I KNOW that from the more than 3,000 students I had over 30 years, that in all my classes from 35-75 students each class--many classes had NO ONE who was clearly FREE of SIGNIFICANT ATTACHMENT DISORDER. Some classes had 2 or 3 such students. I can't recall a single class with more than 3-4 such students.
10. So the problem really is quite serious and pervasive. Of THAT I have NO doubt.
Thanks for your kind replies and experiential perspective.
Actually, imho, your dissing of the books about ATTACHMENT DISORDER misses the mark.
1. ATTACHMENT RESEARCH BEGAN DECADES AGO WITH REAL LIFE FAMILIES AND RESEARCH IN THE LAB WITH REAL FAMILIES.
2. In many respects, the data derived is closer to the Scandinavian actuarial statistics than limited studies. You might be aware that Scandinavian countries typically keep stats on everyone. So they are not dealing with a SAMPLING of the population. Their statistics COME FROM THE POPULATION as a whole.
3. Regardless of what country the research was done in or whether it was a whole population study or a sampled study--the results are essentially the same.
4. In many respects, ATTACHMENT DISORDER research is the most reality based; experientially real, validated, derived; grass roots sorts of psychological and sociological research I know of.
5. It is FAR from a limited ivory tower perspective. It deals with masses of real life data from real families from every walk of life; every socio-economic perspective; every religious perspective; every addiction perspective etc.
6. On top of that, I have my own perspective from watching intensely more than 3,000 students and asking them rather intense questions etc. for more than 30 years. Add to that all the counselees over the same time period. All my observations and experiences are quite affirming and congruent with the literature.
7. The only significant quibble was illustrated by a dialogue I had with a fellow professor. I asked him what percentage of the population he felt had significant ATTACHMENT DISORDER. He quoted the figure in a lot of the research: 20%. I said I thought that was wrong--that it was closer to 80% or higher.
8. Then we checked our definitions. I said that I thought significant ATTACHMENT DISORDER was where individuals as adults had major problems in relationships, self worth etc. as a function of poor parenting. He agreed that if that was the definition, the the percentage would be closer to 80% or higher.
9. I KNOW that from the more than 3,000 students I had over 30 years, that in all my classes from 35-75 students each class--many classes had NO ONE who was clearly FREE of SIGNIFICANT ATTACHMENT DISORDER. Some classes had 2 or 3 such students. I can't recall a single class with more than 3-4 such students.
10. So the problem really is quite serious and pervasive. Of THAT I have NO doubt.
Thanks for your kind replies and experiential perspective.
a reply to: SallieSunshine
Thanks, IIRC, I've read some short excerpts. I'll try and get it on Kindle. Sounds like a sobering book. I think when I first came across it, it was too traumatic a book for me to face in the emotional space I was in, at the time.
Thx thx.
Thanks, IIRC, I've read some short excerpts. I'll try and get it on Kindle. Sounds like a sobering book. I think when I first came across it, it was too traumatic a book for me to face in the emotional space I was in, at the time.
Thx thx.
a reply to: infoseeker26754
I don't know if you've read me saying the following as I have on several threads, or not.
This is from my PhD program 35+ or so years ago. I don't recall the ref or the professor stating it though I think I have a good guess on the latter.
This was a comprehensive massive study of all the other studies to date on
ALL THE OTHER FACTORS REGARDING CHILD REARING, DISCIPLINE, SOCIO-ECONOMICS, ALCOHOLISM, ABUSE, . . . WHATEVER . . . EVER STUDIED that contributed knowledge to
WHAT RESULTED IN CHILDREN SUCCEEDING AS ADULTS.
They looked at everything they could:
1. Style of discipline
2. Economic status of the family
3. Values, religion, etc.
4. size of family
5. type of work; if both parents worked or not etc.
6. affection or not
7. corporal punishment, or not
8. strict discipline
9. laize faire--let everything go discipline
10. degree of emotional, physical, sexual, verbal abuse
. . . and more.
They DEFINED SUCCESS AS ADULTS AS:
(A) NO TROUBLE WITH THE LAW
(B) STEADY WORK RECORD
(C) STABLE MARRIAGE
(D) NOT ON WELFARE
ONE FACTOR accounted for 80% of the VARIANCE that resulted in success as adults.
Put another way, 80% of success as adults was due to ONE FACTOR.
WHAT WOULD YOU GUESS THAT ONE FACTOR WOULD BE?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
No. It was not the style of discipline.
No. It was not the addictions of the parents.
No. It was not what good church-goers they were.
No. It was not the socio-economic status of the parents/family.
No. It was not the type of job the father or jobs the father and mother had.
No. It was NOT even whether the child was LOVED, or not.
.
.
.
.
.
It WAS whether the child FELT LOVED, OR NOT.
THAT ONE FACTOR accounted for 80% of whether the child succeeded as an adult, or not.
And, in a nutshell, that summarizes most of the issues and factors involved with ATTACHMENT DISORDER.
.
I don't know if you've read me saying the following as I have on several threads, or not.
This is from my PhD program 35+ or so years ago. I don't recall the ref or the professor stating it though I think I have a good guess on the latter.
This was a comprehensive massive study of all the other studies to date on
ALL THE OTHER FACTORS REGARDING CHILD REARING, DISCIPLINE, SOCIO-ECONOMICS, ALCOHOLISM, ABUSE, . . . WHATEVER . . . EVER STUDIED that contributed knowledge to
WHAT RESULTED IN CHILDREN SUCCEEDING AS ADULTS.
They looked at everything they could:
1. Style of discipline
2. Economic status of the family
3. Values, religion, etc.
4. size of family
5. type of work; if both parents worked or not etc.
6. affection or not
7. corporal punishment, or not
8. strict discipline
9. laize faire--let everything go discipline
10. degree of emotional, physical, sexual, verbal abuse
. . . and more.
They DEFINED SUCCESS AS ADULTS AS:
(A) NO TROUBLE WITH THE LAW
(B) STEADY WORK RECORD
(C) STABLE MARRIAGE
(D) NOT ON WELFARE
ONE FACTOR accounted for 80% of the VARIANCE that resulted in success as adults.
Put another way, 80% of success as adults was due to ONE FACTOR.
WHAT WOULD YOU GUESS THAT ONE FACTOR WOULD BE?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
No. It was not the style of discipline.
No. It was not the addictions of the parents.
No. It was not what good church-goers they were.
No. It was not the socio-economic status of the parents/family.
No. It was not the type of job the father or jobs the father and mother had.
No. It was NOT even whether the child was LOVED, or not.
.
.
.
.
.
It WAS whether the child FELT LOVED, OR NOT.
THAT ONE FACTOR accounted for 80% of whether the child succeeded as an adult, or not.
And, in a nutshell, that summarizes most of the issues and factors involved with ATTACHMENT DISORDER.
.
a reply to: SallieSunshine
OK. I have that one on most of my Kindles, now. Hope to get to it soonish. A lot of books are in the Que. LOL.
I also got Dr Perry's BORN FOR LOVE
And DO FATHERS MATTER? What Science is Telling us about the Parent We've Overlooked
by Paul Raeburn.
They all look good.
THX THX
OK. I have that one on most of my Kindles, now. Hope to get to it soonish. A lot of books are in the Que. LOL.
I also got Dr Perry's BORN FOR LOVE
And DO FATHERS MATTER? What Science is Telling us about the Parent We've Overlooked
by Paul Raeburn.
They all look good.
THX THX
2. WITHOUT that . . . the child is literally physiologically BRAIN DAMAGED--in the areas of the brain which manage EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION and which manage RELATIONSHIPS.
Yeah! It feels so good to know I am brain damaged. Just what I need, more labels. My mother did tell me that the mother child bond never did happen and I'll agree.
(D) They tend to be prey to addictions of every stripe--workaholism, alcoholism, drugs, perfectionism, bitterness, anger, rage-aholism, resentment, unforgiveness, idolatries of various people--and/or things--sports teams or figures--Hollyweed idols; rich people, etc. They vainly fantasize that IF they could be perfect enough or like XYZ idolized person, THEN they'd REALLY FINALLY BE WORTH something!
The only ones there that fit me is is bitterness and resentment. I can't begin to understand why someone why idolize someone else. That wouldn't make me feel "worth something" at all. If I don't hold your opinion in high esteem your opinion of me means nothing. If I don't know you, how can I value your opinion? Celebrities don't know their fans on a personal level, so it would be pointless.
I think you are trying to make a great point, but I feel that the above is harmful.
a reply to: calstorm
I'm highly likely to certainly brain damaged in those areas for serious ATTACHMENT DISORDER reasons, too.
The MRI studies discovering that were a shock. However, I'd rather deal with reality. And, it did help understand myself better.
And, it has helped me do better at making adjustments. It has increased my patience with others and with myself. It has helped me take more time to work things out and sometimes even to express troublesome things.
= = =
The early idolizing years are useful in helping the child learn that proper authority is a helpful, loving and good thing--WHEN--the parenting is good.
Otherwise, the idolizing crashes and burns rapidly.
At best, the idolizing begins to wane between 6-14, if not earlier. Lots of temper throwing 2 year old's don't seem to idolize their parents at all--in the middle of their fits.
If a teen still idolizes their Dad, then the Dad MUST have SERIOUSLY EARNED IT.
Highly respecting, admiring, loving, enjoying can be quite different from mindless worship, anyway.
Thanks for the continued dialogue.
I'm highly likely to certainly brain damaged in those areas for serious ATTACHMENT DISORDER reasons, too.
The MRI studies discovering that were a shock. However, I'd rather deal with reality. And, it did help understand myself better.
And, it has helped me do better at making adjustments. It has increased my patience with others and with myself. It has helped me take more time to work things out and sometimes even to express troublesome things.
= = =
The early idolizing years are useful in helping the child learn that proper authority is a helpful, loving and good thing--WHEN--the parenting is good.
Otherwise, the idolizing crashes and burns rapidly.
At best, the idolizing begins to wane between 6-14, if not earlier. Lots of temper throwing 2 year old's don't seem to idolize their parents at all--in the middle of their fits.
If a teen still idolizes their Dad, then the Dad MUST have SERIOUSLY EARNED IT.
Highly respecting, admiring, loving, enjoying can be quite different from mindless worship, anyway.
Thanks for the continued dialogue.
edit on 21/6/2014 by BO XIAN because: qualifiers
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