Are we witnessing the beginning of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Vovin

What does the territorial status of Ukraine have to do with ethnicity of the immigrants?

And exactly what immigrants are you talking about, because aren't most of those who became separatists born in Ukraine so they really can't be considered immigrants now can they?

And I found this interesting...

Ethnic differences are not inherited; they are learned.

www.cliffsnotes.com...

Now I have no clue what you're talking about. You were saying something about how there couldn't be generations of ethnic-Russian Ukrainians because Ukraine was created in the 1920s (which doesn't explain why there wouldn't still be third/fourth generation ethnic-Russian Ukrainians, especially considering where Ukraine's geospatial populations would begin), so I said that it doesn't matter when Ukraine started because it has no bearing on where its immigrants come from.

And now you're trying to school me with some Internet article on fringe theories of social identity? My field of study is social geography and development of nations. So thanks but no thanks.

(from previous post)
Russia is involved and it has been proven you are just to stuck on Russia being some kind of savior to even see that.

Not in the least. East Ukraine is carrying out a classic leftist revolt against its oppressive state. Believe it or not these leftist revolts have occurred before, on opposite ends of the Earth, with nothing to do with Russia.

My stance on Russia is that they should be carrying out the same R2P protocols that the western empires have invoked for the sake of "humanitarian intervention" to stop the obvious crimes against humanity from continuing.

If Russia was involved anywhere close to the extent that you claim, there would be no more NATO junta in Kiev right now, because Russia would wipe the floor with them and whoever is willing to fight for them. But then we would all have a worse situation than a mere civil war, wouldn't we?

a reply to: Vovin

because Russia would wipe the floor with them and whoever is willing to fight for them.

Just like they did in Afghanistan, and Georgia.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Cool. Thanks for letting me know that you agree with the U.S. state dept & euromaidanPR that there are ethnic Russians in Ukraine!

Have a good day!

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Vovin

because Russia would wipe the floor with them and whoever is willing to fight for them.

Just like they did in Afghanistan, and Georgia.

Yes, I remember Russia beating Tbilisi's forces senseless. They only stopped because western leaders were suddenly crying for peace.

Afghanistan is a whole different story. I'm sure you're capable of understanding the difference between a conventional standing army and an asymmetrical rebel force. But maybe not if you're comparing Ukraine's military to having the same ability to fight Russia as the mujahideen did.

looks like Orthodox Churches are next to be stormed and burned down in Ukraine.
This was yesterday in Kiev. Nazism is not welcomed in EU but somehow it is supported in Ukraine. Go figure. Absolute madness supported by US/EU





One of the organisers, notice his Nazi salute at 0:31

a reply to: Vovin

Funny how people in the east aren't running into the streets to greet Kiev's forces as liberators, if the rebellion was only just a handful of evil Russian agents.

This is what I don't understand that isn't being examined on ATS. You have MASS defection within Ukrainian military thats LITERALLY running to Russia to seek refuge from the Ukie military. Yet no mention of it. . .

Why isn't there support Internationally for the Ukie govt?? Why isn't there any 'Rah rah Ukie govt' rallies internationally??

Yet there's support for Novorussiya all over the Globe! Hell, even within the U.S.

And there now appears to be alienation between Washington & Paris. . . This is something that the U.S. didn't correctly think thru b4 running head long into this crisis.

check this out, quite interesting considering it was in 2006.

Sent a very interesting link, which I share - Ukrainian nationalist youth undergoing diversionary terrorist training instructor-led NATO military base on the territory of Estonia in the summer of 2006: the youth listened with interest to NATO trainers lectures on methods of conducting subversive and terrorist activities and guerrilla warfare techniques ( see video Video001 , video02 )

link to more info and plenty of pics

varjag-2007.livejournal.com...

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: Vovin

Funny how people in the east aren't running into the streets to greet Kiev's forces as liberators, if the rebellion was only just a handful of evil Russian agents.

This is what I don't understand that isn't being examined on ATS. You have MASS defection within Ukrainian military thats LITERALLY running to Russia to seek refuge from the Ukie military. Yet no mention of it. . .

Why isn't there support Internationally for the Ukie govt?? Why isn't there any 'Rah rah Ukie govt' rallies internationally??

Yet there's support for Novorussiya all over the Globe! Hell, even within the U.S.

And there now appears to be alienation between Washington & Paris. . . This is something that the U.S. didn't correctly think thru b4 running head long into this crisis.

this might relate to your post as well when speaking about alliance

A Polish news magazine said on Sunday it had obtained a secret recording of Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, in contention for a senior European Union job, saying that Poland's relationship with the United States was worthless.
According to a transcript of excerpts of the conversation that was published by Wprost on its Internet site, Sikorski told Rostowski: "You know that the Polish-US alliance isn't worth anything."
"It is downright harmful, because it creates a false sense of security ... Complete bull#. We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we'll think that everything is super, because we gave the Americans a blow job. Losers. Complete losers."

www.theguardian.com...

a few shots of vodka and people open up more than they are supposed to.

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: Vovin

Funny how people in the east aren't running into the streets to greet Kiev's forces as liberators, if the rebellion was only just a handful of evil Russian agents.

This is what I don't understand that isn't being examined on ATS. You have MASS defection within Ukrainian military thats LITERALLY running to Russia to seek refuge from the Ukie military. Yet no mention of it. . .

Why isn't there support Internationally for the Ukie govt?? Why isn't there any 'Rah rah Ukie govt' rallies internationally??

Yet there's support for Novorussiya all over the Globe! Hell, even within the U.S.

And there now appears to be alienation between Washington & Paris. . . This is something that the U.S. didn't correctly think thru b4 running head long into this crisis.

this might relate to your post as well when speaking about alliance

A Polish news magazine said on Sunday it had obtained a secret recording of Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, in contention for a senior European Union job, saying that Poland's relationship with the United States was worthless.
According to a transcript of excerpts of the conversation that was published by Wprost on its Internet site, Sikorski told Rostowski: "You know that the Polish-US alliance isn't worth anything."
"It is downright harmful, because it creates a false sense of security ... Complete bull#. We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we'll think that everything is super, because we gave the Americans a blow job. Losers. Complete losers."

www.theguardian.com...

a few shots of vodka and people open up more than they are supposed to.

You just post stuff with no understanding of the meaning dont you? Were you aware Radoslaw Sikorski was a resident fellow of the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C. during the Bush administration. He is taking cheap shots at Obama for his lack of interest in Ukraine basically hes a neo con.His policy is for NATO to throw troops into Poland and Ukraine and kick the Russian troops back across the border. I personally think this is a bad idea but im sure others here would agree with him. He sees Obama as weak because hes unwilling to use military force can be argued thats why Putin is playing this game if Bush was still in office i have to admit i dont think Putin would play this game.

Now the Mass defections of there military the reason its not being covered is because its a Russian propaganda myth. Do you remember early on when they claimed Ukrainian military surrendered and they captured an APC turns out those werent Ukrainian troops the media kept showing. They were locked up and returned months later. If you here of defections thats an interview of a couple of soldiers they captured who are trying not to be dragged into the woods and shot. Ukraine makes the same claims of Russians defecting to them its all just propaganda. In fact the latest was a guy that claimed he was recruited by Russia but defected because hes ashamed of Putins lies. Again all just propaganda from both sides.

originally posted by: Vovin
The UN is whitewashing genocide and war crimes, just like it has been doing for a long time. If the UN was useful at all then why is a racist apartheid like Israel still allowed a set of double standards in its unofficial deployment and development of weapons of mass destruction and its treatment of Palestinians as if they were animals?

So the UN's report is wrong because of Israel. Give me a break. The UN's report is quite clear. Feel free to provide the evidence, from reliable sources, of Ukrainian war crimes against the pro-Russian separatists and / or against the Ukrainians living in parts of the Eastern Ukraine. Feel free to disprove the UN report.

www.ohchr.org...

Anyway, there is confusion in your argument. On the one hand the Ukrainians are neo Nazis and presumably anti-Semite. In fact, I have seen the anti-Semite accusation levelled in other threads. Yet, the UN (on Israel’s orders) supports them. You’re scrabbling for reasons to ignore the evidence.

Regards

a reply to: cosmonova
This proves that there are far right nationalist organisations in Ukraine, which we all know. It does not prove ethnic cleansing, as per your OP. Earlier, you asked people to keep on topic.

Anyway, this type of post cuts both ways, as has already been discussed. For example, Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed "people's governor" of the Donetsk People's Republic, was a member of a nasty little bunch of neo-Nazis which is well documented. He's now living his dream.

en.wikipedia.org...

Regards

a reply to: SurrenderingAmerica

Cool. Thanks for letting me know that you agree with the U.S. state dept & euromaidanPR that there are ethnic Russians in Ukraine!

How did you come to that conclusion with what I posted?

I never said there wasn't.

a reply to: SurrenderingAmerica

Yet there's support for Novorussiya all over the Globe! Hell, even within the U.S.

Care to show where in the US there is support for Novorossiya, because I have yet to see it?

a reply to: paraphi

Anyway, this type of post cuts both ways, as has already been discussed. For example, Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed "people's governor" of the Donetsk People's Republic, was a member of a nasty little bunch of neo-Nazis which is well documented. He's now living his dream.

He is Russian so it is okay.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: cosmonova
This proves that there are far right nationalist organisations in Ukraine, which we all know. It does not prove ethnic cleansing, as per your OP. Earlier, you asked people to keep on topic.

Anyway, this type of post cuts both ways, as has already been discussed. For example, Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed "people's governor" of the Donetsk People's Republic, was a member of a nasty little bunch of neo-Nazis which is well documented. He's now living his dream.

en.wikipedia.org...

Regards

there are far right organisations in almost every country. And they are minor groups who organise from time to time street protests or similar events strictly monitored by police. In some countries they are prohibited to even do that.
What we have in Ukraine is a completely different story. The far right organisations are armed by government and they now represent a core of Nazguard, Azov batallion and various other paramilitary formations roaming Novorossiya, shelling cities, destroying infra-structure, and terrorising local population.
Those ones left in Ukrainian cities organise events such as Odessa massacre, attack on Russian embassy or this
attack on Orthodox Church I posted above (thankfully they were stop before causing any damage to the church).
Bottom line is that core of Ukrainian patriotism and nationalism is Russophobia and hatred towards anything Russian.
Period. Proudly sponsored by US/EU.
Anyone who expect ethnic Russians to clap to that and support United Ukraine is out of touch with reality.


Azov battalion is in charge in Mariupol right now.
Notice that lovely yellow flag in this clip at 1:45.
They are Nazis and they are armed by Ukrainian Government, fully supported by US/EU.

Svoboda (”Freedom”) is one of Ukraine’s largest far-right political parties. During the Maidan protests the group’s flag was highly visible; the banner displays the national colors of blue and yellow and is emblazoned with a hand giving a three fingered salute approximating a trident, the national symbol of Ukraine. The organization is currently led by Oleh Tyahnybok. In an article titled, Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine’s ultra-nationalists, the BBC reported that in 2004 Tyahnybok gave a televised speech in which he exhorted Ukrainians to combat the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia that runs Ukraine today.” In 2005 he signed an open letter calling upon the Ukraine government to fight the “criminal activities of organized Jewry.” In 2013 the World Jewish Congress asked European governments to consider banning neo-Nazi parties like Svoboda.

(Left) "Wolfsangel" or "Wolf-hook" heraldic symbol used by the Nazi Waffen-SS during World War II. (Middle) The Nazi inspired logo of the Social-National Party of Ukraine. (Right) In 2004 the Social-National Party of Ukraine changed its name to Svoboda ("Freedom"), and replaced its neo-Nazi flag with a blue and yellow banner.
(Left) "Wolfsangel" or "Wolf-hook" heraldic symbol used by the Nazi Waffen-SS during World War II. (Middle) The Nazi inspired logo of the Social-National Party of Ukraine. (Right) In 2004 the Social-National Party of Ukraine changed its name to Svoboda ("Freedom"), replacing its neo-Nazi flag with a blue and yellow banner.
But Svoboda sprang from an earlier party, the Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU). Founded in 1991 by Andriy Parubiy and Oleh Tyahnybok, the SNPU modeled itself after Hitler’s “National Socialist” party, taking the Nazi “Wolfsangel” heraldic symbol as their logo. In 1998 the SNPU formed a paramilitary, the Patriots of Ukraine, led by Parubiy. In 2004 the SNPU reformed its image by phasing out its Nazi inspired logo and changing its name to Svoboda.

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: cosmonova
This proves that there are far right nationalist organisations in Ukraine, which we all know. It does not prove ethnic cleansing, as per your OP. Earlier, you asked people to keep on topic.

Anyway, this type of post cuts both ways, as has already been discussed. For example, Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed "people's governor" of the Donetsk People's Republic, was a member of a nasty little bunch of neo-Nazis which is well documented. He's now living his dream.

en.wikipedia.org...

Regards

there are far right organisations in almost every country. And they are minor groups who organise from time to time street protests or similar events strictly monitored by police. In some countries they are prohibited to even do that.
What we have in Ukraine is a completely different story. The far right organisations are armed by government and they now represent a core of Nazguard, Azov batallion and various other paramilitary formations roaming Novorossiya, shelling cities, destroying infra-structure, and terrorising local population.
Those ones left in Ukrainian cities organise events such as Odessa massacre, attack on Russian embassy or this
attack on Orthodox Church I posted above (thankfully they were stop before causing any damage to the church).
Bottom line is that core of Ukrainian patriotism and nationalism is Russophobia and hatred towards anything Russian.
Period. Proudly sponsored by US/EU.
Anyone who expect ethnic Russians to clap to that and support United Ukraine is out of touch with reality.

Might want to read this before you start believing Russian propaganda.

www.stopfake.org...

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Vovin
The UN is whitewashing genocide and war crimes, just like it has been doing for a long time. If the UN was useful at all then why is a racist apartheid like Israel still allowed a set of double standards in its unofficial deployment and development of weapons of mass destruction and its treatment of Palestinians as if they were animals?

So the UN's report is wrong because of Israel. Give me a break. The UN's report is quite clear. Feel free to provide the evidence, from reliable sources, of Ukrainian war crimes against the pro-Russian separatists and / or against the Ukrainians living in parts of the Eastern Ukraine. Feel free to disprove the UN report.

www.ohchr.org...

Anyway, there is confusion in your argument. On the one hand the Ukrainians are neo Nazis and presumably anti-Semite. In fact, I have seen the anti-Semite accusation levelled in other threads. Yet, the UN (on Israel’s orders) supports them. You’re scrabbling for reasons to ignore the evidence.

Regards

Anti-Semite?

Come back when you're not grasping for straws. I have no idea what you're referring to.

As for the UN report, I gave you a damn clear reason why it's biased. It wasn't because of Israel. It was because those who fund the UN get to control favourable results from UN agencies if the agencies wish to still receive funding. It's not hard to understand this concept, especially when Americans complain about paying the most of the UN's bill while thinking that their government is just being generous.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: cosmonova
This proves that there are far right nationalist organisations in Ukraine, which we all know. It does not prove ethnic cleansing, as per your OP. Earlier, you asked people to keep on topic.

Anyway, this type of post cuts both ways, as has already been discussed. For example, Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed "people's governor" of the Donetsk People's Republic, was a member of a nasty little bunch of neo-Nazis which is well documented. He's now living his dream.

en.wikipedia.org...

Regards

there are far right organisations in almost every country. And they are minor groups who organise from time to time street protests or similar events strictly monitored by police. In some countries they are prohibited to even do that.
What we have in Ukraine is a completely different story. The far right organisations are armed by government and they now represent a core of Nazguard, Azov batallion and various other paramilitary formations roaming Novorossiya, shelling cities, destroying infra-structure, and terrorising local population.
Those ones left in Ukrainian cities organise events such as Odessa massacre, attack on Russian embassy or this
attack on Orthodox Church I posted above (thankfully they were stop before causing any damage to the church).
Bottom line is that core of Ukrainian patriotism and nationalism is Russophobia and hatred towards anything Russian.
Period. Proudly sponsored by US/EU.
Anyone who expect ethnic Russians to clap to that and support United Ukraine is out of touch with reality.

Might want to read this before you start believing Russian propaganda.

www.stopfake.org...

Oh wow one fake photo that was already widely know about as being from a film set. It certainly doesn't disprove Operation Gladio as "Russian propaganda".

At this opportunity Id like to present this video of a west Ukraine talk show that invited a veteran British war journalist to talk about his experiences in east Ukraine. When he wasn't saying the things the crowd expected, the reaction was priceless. Clearly these people have been cut off from reality for some time.

a reply to: Vovin

All very interesting, but you can post as many randomly selected videos in an attempt prove whatever point you like, but where's the evidence of ethnic cleansing, as per the OP.

Where's the evidence that the UN report is wrong?

Regards

originally posted by: Vovin

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: cosmonova
This proves that there are far right nationalist organisations in Ukraine, which we all know. It does not prove ethnic cleansing, as per your OP. Earlier, you asked people to keep on topic.

Anyway, this type of post cuts both ways, as has already been discussed. For example, Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed "people's governor" of the Donetsk People's Republic, was a member of a nasty little bunch of neo-Nazis which is well documented. He's now living his dream.

en.wikipedia.org...

Regards

there are far right organisations in almost every country. And they are minor groups who organise from time to time street protests or similar events strictly monitored by police. In some countries they are prohibited to even do that.
What we have in Ukraine is a completely different story. The far right organisations are armed by government and they now represent a core of Nazguard, Azov batallion and various other paramilitary formations roaming Novorossiya, shelling cities, destroying infra-structure, and terrorising local population.
Those ones left in Ukrainian cities organise events such as Odessa massacre, attack on Russian embassy or this
attack on Orthodox Church I posted above (thankfully they were stop before causing any damage to the church).
Bottom line is that core of Ukrainian patriotism and nationalism is Russophobia and hatred towards anything Russian.
Period. Proudly sponsored by US/EU.
Anyone who expect ethnic Russians to clap to that and support United Ukraine is out of touch with reality.

Might want to read this before you start believing Russian propaganda.

www.stopfake.org...

Oh wow one fake photo that was already widely know about as being from a film set. It certainly doesn't disprove Operation Gladio as "Russian propaganda".

At this opportunity Id like to present this video of a west Ukraine talk show that invited a veteran British war journalist to talk about his experiences in east Ukraine. When he wasn't saying the things the crowd expected, the reaction was priceless. Clearly these people have been cut off from reality for some time.

Yeah once again RT and other Russian media use movies and fake videos to try to prove a point. See this is called lying yet you continue to believe it. As far as Gladio glad you mentioned that actually that again was more Russian propaganda. Russia forged documents on that one trying to make it seem to be something else entirely.

web.archive.org...://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2006/Jan/20-127177.html