Creationism Will be the End of Cristianity.

a reply to: Astyanax

Wrong.

Your understanding of the facts about the dates the Gospels, I Cor, Acts etc. were written are inaccurate. They were significantly earlier than you seem to believe. They were well within the lifetimes of those able to dispute them if they had been inaccurate.

Josh McDowell's NEW EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT can be of help.

a reply to: Astyanax

I thank you for your criticism; however, I already mentioned that. Maybe you didn't read it all the way through?

It is, academically, fairly indisputable that they are witness accounts. Let me re-emphasize my point because you left it out of the quote...

The question isn't the legitimacy of the manuscripts. The question is whether or not you believe the witness accounts, i.e., do you have faith in their claims? I do.

Perhaps it was my fault, and I didn't make it easy to understand what I was saying. Either way, you reiterated my point.

a reply to: JohnFisher

Also, see the reply from bo xian just above my reply... We know the oldest manuscripts to date were originally written in the lifetime of those who witnessed the events unfold. That's not even a debate amongst serious scholars. That's why the question is NOT premises on the legitimacy of the documents. The question is now the same that it was then... Do you believe it? So yes, faith.

a reply to: JohnFisher

You can't add validity to your belief , it is obvious that you cannot... this will only serve to lead you down the trail towards inaccuracy.
It turns out that eye witness accounts and testimony are the least reliable evidence of all types. I suppose you need to figure out if "accuracy" is something you care about. Obviously if you're more worried about "losing your faith" than "being accurate"... then you should focus more on your faith.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: Astyanax

Wrong.

Your understanding of the facts about the dates the Gospels, I Cor, Acts etc. were written are inaccurate. They were significantly earlier than you seem to believe. They were well within the lifetimes of those able to dispute them if they had been inaccurate.

Josh McDowell's NEW EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT can be of help.

None of what Astyanax said was wrong. The accounts in the NT were written down years after the alleged events that they are describing. Regardless if the years after was while these people were alive or not these accounts are STILL subject to embellishment and lies by their writers. That's just a fact.

If you honestly believe that just because these people were still alive when these stories were written is reliable proof of their validity then you my friend must get duped by the mass media a lot. Because the mass media skews facts with JUST the reprinting of other news' articles. I've watched monetary sums shrink from $100 million to as low as $10 million or even lower just by clicking on an article's source (then clicking on that article's source and so on). Sometimes they rereport stuff that was a few years old with embellished facts as well. All these tactics rely on the reader NOT verifying their sources. So tell me this, even if these people were alive to corroborate or deny these claims, how many people do you think would actually track them down to ask them? Seeing as how many people can't even be arsed to do it when all you have to do is click a link, I imagine that the willingness to do it when it required so much more would be far less. It's easier to just believe. Especially when everyone in those ages is wildly superstitious.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

ya know the verse that says,

And the earth was without form, and void;

that originally said, the earth became a desolate wasteland.

that's translators for ya. there was no analog for "was" in the original language of the verse. the word there was "become" and in the past tense it was "became"

originally posted by: flyingfish
a reply to: JohnFisher

You can't add validity to your belief , it is obvious that you cannot... this will only serve to lead you down the trail towards inaccuracy.
It turns out that eye witness accounts and testimony are the least reliable evidence of all types. I suppose you need to figure out if "accuracy" is something you care about. Obviously if you're more worried about "losing your faith" than "being accurate"... then you should focus more on your faith.

Let's not forget, it's eye witness reports from second hand sources, decades after the alleged events took place. That would NEVER hold up in court. Yet people bet there souls on it.

a reply to: ArtemisE

I think you are partly right . . . However, I think it is more than just "creationism". Clinging to archaic cognitive processes and bronze age mythology will be Christianity's downfall. Creationism will just go down with it.

Claiming some sort of "supernatural" authority on morality and causation for "good" or "evil".

Perpetuating the bigotry and segregation that accompanies their twisted reality, again upon supernatural authority.

The willingness to become violent or "fight back" against those who disagree with this authority.

The continued self-victimization in order to gain attention, manipulate, even abuse others.


We even see this trend today . . . Probably in this thread, as I haven't read past your opening post (not really a need to as any post, in this forum, that reaches 8 pages in a few hours means the "god squad" is in full force), you will see "christians" separating themselves from their "brethren" and saying "but, not all Christians . . . wha wha wha". Heck, there are over 4000 sects of Christianity worldwide because they continually invent new ways to interpret and worship to "fit in" and keep away from criticism . . .

Charlatans . . . one and all.

a reply to: solomons path

do you agree with other atheists all the time? your argument has sprung a leak. "Perpetuating the bigotry"
yet you don't have a problem with a thread, who's sole intent is to 1) attack christianity specifically, 2) attack any christians who say, hey wait a minute

lol

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: solomons path

do you agree with other atheists all the time? your argument has sprung a leak. "Perpetuating the bigotry"
yet you don't have a problem with a thread, who's sole intent is to 1) attack christianity specifically, 2) attack any christians who say, hey wait a minute

lol

First . . . I only read the OP . . . until now, and your post. I'm not going to go back to read pages of "wait, I'm a christian and I don't believe that" or the ever popular circular reasoning of using the bible or apologetics to prove the bible or the validity of the apologetics sources.

I see a criticism of a thought process that ignores reality in favor of a superstitious belief in creationism. I also see criticism of that movements leaders and followers that understand that "creationism" has no basis in reality, based on all available evidence.

Of course to a group that wallows in self-victimization and claims of persecution . . . it is "bigotry". That's psychological projection.

You have also proven my point in your response . . . calling a criticism an "attack". Really? When were you or any christian "attacked" by "atheists". We are talking words . . . communication . . . conversation, which (my post at least) wasn't addressed to you. Unfortunately, you just had to respond and say "but, wait . . . what about you dad". Self-victimization.

And the "bigotry" I speak of isn't criticism of atheists or any other belief. It's demonstrable. Christians in Africa burning witches. Christian's destroying native cultures based on "the authority" of their belief. Christians in America bombing/shooting up abortion clinics. Using the bible to excuse racial/religious segregation among populations. Claiming those with a different sexual orientation shouldn't be able to enjoy the same rights.

However, I'm sorry you feel so persecuted . . . LOL BATY!

a reply to: ArtemisE

the part that bugs me about this particular angle of the topic is, it was in the hands of a single organization for almost 2 thousand years. that's the scary part.

a reply to: solomons path

oh wait, it gets better

notice the names, nehemiah, jeremiah, obadiah, isaiah. see how they all have the same suffix. "-i a h"

that's yah and ayah (ea, see sumerian enki)

but waiiit, it's also
Ahmose I (Egyptian: Jˁḥ ms(j.w), sometimes written Amosis I, "Amenes" and "Aahmes" and meaning Born of Iah [5])

say what? yeah. you don't even know the half of it.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

update

Around 360 church buildings and crosses have been demolished already this year, according to the group.

Chinese church's fightback fails to stop cross removal
Another Chinese church is stripped of its cross as a Communist Party ‘anti-church’ demolition campaign continues in Zhejiang province

www.telegraph.co.uk...

The same thing will happen here.

a reply to: flyingfish

Yes, eye-witness testimony is unreliable under many circumstances. I'm well aware of the psychology behind it. Psychology, especially social, was my primary study before I moved on to communication studies and mass comm (public relations; propaganda). By studying the propaganda machine in America, I'm also well aware that it's an uphill battle for bible believing Christians. I get that. But... I do have faith in those witness testimonies. Absolutely I do. When everything is said and done, any belief (scientific or otherwise) amounts to faith. Do you have faith that our scientists aren't doing what they did in Soviet Russia? Do you have faith that our scientists are more trust-worthy than those in North Korea? Do not mistake me, I'm not saying our scientists are making stuff up. I don't believe they are (mostly). According to my research methods class, fraud is a significant problem in academia, and the majority of "studies" we hear about on tv are not conducted in reliable/ethical ways. Apparently, the peer review process doesn't prevent it as much as we would hope, but it does help a lot. Point in case, at the end of the day, it's all a matter of faith. It turns out that light bends, so until recent years our belief about light was, you guessed it, inaccurate and based on faith.

I believe the witness testimonies in the New Testament. I feel like too many people differed too greatly with the social norms of the day without the proper channels for disseminating mass propaganda. They were in direct contrast to sacred cultural values, and since you seem to be hip to psychology (FYI- you're awesome for it!!!), I'm sure you'll note that such drastic and quick changes to sacred values are extremely difficult to change. That may mean little to some people, but to me it means something.

You can disagree with me all you want. You can tell me that I'm wrong though I'll disagree. That's fine, but in terms of accuracy VS faith, everything is a matter of faith.

I do appreciate your polite response. I also appreciate that you're (I'm guessing) a deep thinker.

a reply to: ArtemisE

That's not entirely correct.

solomons path

i retain the right to study what i want and believe what i want, regardless of what any other group says. period. end.of.story. i'm not going to justify attacks that claim i'm anti-gay, when i'm not, that i believe in segregation, when i don't, that accuse me of all kinds of bull # i didn't do, like the inquistion for example. i'm not even a catholic, for crying out loud. i'm not taking the fall for other people's errors. thank you very much. i'm not your dang whipping post.

jump off.

a reply to: JohnFisher

Having faith that these eye witness accounts is all well and good. But at the end of the day when you look at the claims made by these eyewitness accounts it becomes exceedingly harder to believe them as true. There are many things mentioned that Jesus supposedly did that is physically impossible. They literally violate the laws of physics (water into wine, walking on water, curing the blind, resurrection, ascension into heaven, etc). That being said, why did no one else write about these great things? No one interviewed the blind man Jesus cured? Ok, that is one dude, but the turning water into wine thing happened at a wedding. Where is all the testimony from the people talking about it? Having water turn into alcohol isn't exactly an everyday occurrence. I'm sure someone would have mentioned it.

Personally, I have a hard enough time believing that Jesus was real (or that he was one person), let alone able to defy the laws of physics like written.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

It isn't easier to "just believe". If it were easier to "just believe", I wouldn't be a bible believing Christian. It's actually difficult at times to keep faith.

Nearly everything I hear in music, see at the movies or tv, and read in magazines tells me I'm stupid and wrong.

a reply to: flyingfish

WRONG.

There were more than 500 witnesses to Christ's resurrection.

The 4 Gospels give a candid perspective of 4 different folks . . . one a Physician.

The essentials of the facts are affirmed in very congruent ways. The different witnesses gave the same narrative from different human perspectives in a mosaic of confirmation.

BTW, you make it sound like the courts would have no use for witness testimony at all. That's absurd.

To say that witnesses can be inaccurate is NOT the same as saying they are worthless.

Sheesh.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

There are accounts of Jesus being a real person in other places outside of anything Christian. He definitely existed. I have a hard time believing that invisibility is possible, but it is. I have a hard time believing that warp speed space travel is theoretically possible, but it is. These things are only relevant because before our understanding grew, they would have been considered equally impossible.

What if our understanding of reality is still in its infancy? What if the world is like a computer program? The coding establishes certain "laws", but those "laws" don't apply if you know how to rewrite the codes.

All I'm saying is that the human mind is too feeble to rule out much of anything. There's too much we don't/can't know. So, again, at the end of the day all bets are off. It all boils down to faith.