How would look a rebuild after apocalypse?

Yes, I would like to ask people from this forum. I assume that if any Mayan 2012 style apocalypse would happen, they would be overrepresented among survivors. I need input of such people for purposes of game scenario (RPG - GURPS 4). I want to have a question answered from your perspective, and not to write what I think people on such forum are expected to believe in.

OK, the situation looks as the following:
You have approximately 1 000 000 like-minded people to a habitable planet. You had to escape from impending doom that endangered Earth.

Assets:
- natural resources - abundant
- human resources - not perfect match for your needs (but maybe I under appreciate your survival skills)
- capital resources - terribly scarce, you were unable to take much stuff (let's say 30 kg of any reasonable equipment per person - so rifle - YES; motobike -NOT)
- food - so far can be hunted/fished quite easily, though moving towards agriculture soon would be necessary
- technology - nominally early XXIst century, though because of population number there is risk of regression

A discussion concerning future political and economic system started. Imagine you seat on a grasslike plants among survivors and eat some meat - how would you advice to rebuild society?

1) Political system? (direct/indirect democracy? centralised/federal? Anything else?)
2) Taxes? (or any other way to maintain state apparatus like each person is supposed to do work for collective one day a week?)
3) Money? (Gold or any other precious metal? Emitted by central bank? Ration stamps? Labour vouchers? Irrelevant in gift economy?)
4) Law and order? (How would police force look like, sentencing and punishments)
5) Form of organization of production? (Free market? Mixed economy? Centrally planed? Cooperatives? )
6) What about safety net? (and how terribly scare resources at start be protected against free riders)
7) Any other interesting laws suggested?
8) How to provide some kind of constitutional safeguards? (I think that some people claim here that there are some mysterious cabals behind. Neither confirming nor denying, I'd just ask how would you protect against such potential threat if were allowed to suggest law)

in short, any apocalypse is meant to wipe us out and start fresh. no need for survival plans, no need to rebuild anything...
when apocalypse comes, just relax... sit back and watch

if there is any apocalypse imminent, I would go and hug my friends, than get the best champagne, sit at the rooftop and embrace the very last moments

I had contact during a meteor storm. That morning, before the shower, had been viewing videos on building earthship style homes, ie cob with cement, but you could use whatever was available for the cob part or lime and industrial hemp or corn husks. Even paper mache mixed in with cob. Anyway, was also viewing solar, wind, and various ideas for electricity. Then there is aquaponics.

I myself am not technical and in fact have health problems, but have sons and my father is very good at talking to people and getting things organized, so realized we would need some who could convince others. Good communicators and master planners.

You don't have to have all the food, all the tools, you have to have ideas and suggestions for organizing and people can contribute to the whole and help. Even teens and older children can be treated like hero's and help.

Then watched a show on a reinactment of a jet crash where many died, and was in tears when this meteor storm started. I was outside in the evening, it was August, suddenly having direct communication with a variety of different beings, human, grey and others, that I can't define. Just felt like a fleet and a kind of federation.

Apparently the concepts I had of the cob homes and aquaponics and energy devices, were very needed. That you came as you are.

If you were someone with tools and garage, you donate them. Whole areas would meet up and start to build and organize. Shelters, starting from basic getting out of the rain and cold, to more complex, ie cob and recylcling.

People would be also looking after the children and infirm or elderly and being kind, the elderly in turn, those more able to use those tools, and teach the teens and youths, could start on the energy devices part.

In the end, after getting through stages, if a group of people were unified in looking after each other, starting a village, they would go from zero to something rather nice within a few years.

I kept saying No Way during the contact, that is not going to happen, there will be no resets, and kept being told that it was really in our hands, we could start to give to others and mitigate it. But thats what it takes.

Its like magnetism, an interactive universe. More bad done, and the leaders do ritual sacrifice and war, and murder children, just now ISIS, one of the Saudi/CIA/Brotherhood type groups beheading children???? Animal sacrifice, the oceans are a blood bath, environmental sacrifice, poverty and starvation and homelessness and cancer and disease sacrifice, slavery sacrifice. They are magnetizing earth to dark things and events.

The opposite is true. Love one another as I have loved you. He gave his life even for his enemies and murderers, if you follow the bible literally.

Out of that contact where I was in tears, here is the part that I realized people don't seem to understand.

There is no armegeddon or events cosmic or otherwise that would occur to the same extent if we were Loving each other like family and leaving no one out in the cold or power tripping over them and trying to force them into menial labor but working out of the box solutions about growing talents and interests instead.

We are magnetizing events. Its a responsive interactive system.

If a bad event lifts off or draws near, do the opposite, GIVE, stop being self centred and GIVE. You don't have to control the other or agree with them. GIVE. Be Kindness itself. Be The Equality, and yet stand up for Freedom. Help one another. Even nature, all creatures great and small.

Do something positive..

Raise frequency.

Work out issues, forgive everyone and self and ask for forgiveness, just work out problems and take responsibility that even if you didn't think you did wrong, and it was all the other person, you still realize somehow you're not being like an angel of good communication, so you just start to blame self and understand them, and really overcome those divisions.

Love.

A bad event could lift off, and we can mitigate it with Love. An earthquake of 8.7 can be tamed to 3.2.

We need to wake up alot more.

Its always about LOVE.

Being human, and knowing human nature, we would just repeat the same mistakes again.
I'd like to think that in the beginning people would be kind and help each other out, maybe even some type of barter system instead of money.
But in the end our human nature would win I'm afraid, and back would come the money, taxes, politics, etc.

We are not mature enough for a peaceful utopia, I'm not saying it will never happen, just that it would be very hard, and we need to mature more as a species.

originally posted by: Rainbowresidue
Being human, and knowing human nature, we would just repeat the same mistakes again.
I'd like to think that in the beginning people would be kind and help each other out, maybe even some type of barter system instead of money.
But in the end our human nature would win I'm afraid, and back would come the money, taxes, politics, etc.

We are not mature enough for a peaceful utopia, I'm not saying it will never happen, just that it would be very hard, and we need to mature more as a species.

Also sounds for me as the most realistic long term scenario.
However, I'm curious whether in such case you would TRY to create utopia. (If "yes", when which version of it) Or at least use a chance of such re-building to make some big reforms.

Roughly .. political system pure anarchy leaders , nations and governments are what will end up killing everyone ..
secure the area so that people could live safely .. provide medical treatment to those that need it .. set up farming so thered be food .. economy probably barter skills or goods trading rather than cash and banking ..
execute any bankers , lawyers and politicians that may have survived as theyre the lowlife scum thats caused the trouble in the world .. set up schools to teach maths , science , reading and writing and slowly build from there toward a better more compassionate and responsible society ..

Most likely in reality with human nature being what it is id stay far far away from whatever was left of society and let them finish killing each other off over the usual idiotic excuses they use to slaughter each other ..

a reply to: Rainbowresidue

That isn't even true. All children come in from higher realms. Or most. There is a bit of a realm differential going on and they've been magnetizing earth to lower ones. So we're gettting some infloods from more fascist ones.

But, children are the light of the world.

All events go in cycles. So many who have been bloodthirsty war monglers in past lives are not so any more. They're ready for graduation or close.

The programming and false leadership going on here, hijacks the real lessons of these beautiful children coming in, and they don't wake up to what they were meant to do. They start to live the divisions instead.

The real role of a leader is to be a wayshower. The world's mismanagers who think they're meant to be wolves and catalysts, ie hidden hand, are so far off mark they have already been given their Fs.

Just a tiny droplet of power and responsibility given to them and they couldn't handle it and won't be joining the big boys and girls who manage whole systems.

But the caveat in this is, some people graduating here will be in those tests themselves and planets like earth are very hard core, most leader types or corporate heads don't have a chance, from childhood on they're possessed and become walk ins for dark side.

In fact, compassion is needed.

But its not a circle, its a spiral. We're not meant to resemble a roman gladiator anymore, but a Federation Counselor and Sociologist.


In the next few thousand years, the human race is going cosmic, to the solar sytem, which larger than we can ever imagine, and colonizing there.

That is the stage we're heading towards, and there is no end cycle here.

We're not at that point for a long stretch.

a reply to: Unity_99
When I said we need to mature more,I meant that in every way:
spiritually (Yes, some of us do have to, I won't even argue with you about that.)
technologically (using different energy sources... we won't have our precious oil forever after all)

It doesn't matter what utopia I'd like, I'm not a leader type person,I'm a survivor though,I'd pretty much stay in a group, and build a small town, farm, trade, etc.

Peace to you dear friend,
Happy Saturday.

What makes you think there would be time to discuss and make decisions?
Social organisation would be as scrambled and ad hoc as food production and distribution.
A big man in your locality with half a dozen strong friends would take charge locally, bully everybody else into doing what needed to be done, and take the lion's share of whatever might be available.
This brutal tyranny in the middle of general chaos would constitute the "freedom from government" which anarchists dream about.

The Great Wave and accompanying disasters will be Planet level,nothing will remain above water,nothing,no mountain top,nothing,not during the event itself.

But is is an event not an eternity.

Humans who survive will be seperated by thousands of KMs, they will be as helpless as babes in the woods,these will be the ones Mother Nature has decreed to be her choices by her own hand.

You must envision double the volume of water on the Earths surface today coming up and then going down again,over EVERYTHING.

Even if you are in a shelter you will perish,you need to be in a specific type of shelter in specific places to even have a snowballs chance of surviving,no the DUMBs will not work,all will fail.

Survival post-event will be on Mother natures terms and if you cannot survive under those terms you shall perish very quickly.

From event to stabilisation on survival levels we will lose 95% of Humanity survivors will be randomly located with great unpassable geographic distances between them.

You need to think of a SnowGlobe when you shake it up and then let it settle,this is the process and you will not be playing Survivorman after this,either you will know what to do or you will die in weeks or months.

There will not be a broken city or town to pick through like they show in hollywood,there will be nothing left,everything will be wiped off the surface and mangled together then strained over the earths geography.

All you will want to see post-event is PEOPLE,ANYONE,you will understand how important we are to each other in groups and really how little value we have as individuals to the species survival,people will be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good in a new way to a new degree.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
What makes you think there would be time to discuss and make decisions?
Social organisation would be as scrambled and ad hoc as food production and distribution.
A big man in your locality with half a dozen strong friends would take charge locally, bully everybody else into doing what needed to be done, and take the lion's share of whatever might be available.
This brutal tyranny in the middle of general chaos would constitute the "freedom from government" which anarchists dream about.

I thought that people used to democracy would try to rebuilding such political system, given a chance and a while to discuss it. (presumably with serious modifications)

Not even directly, you actually may be angry on some local bully and just start to team up against.

There would be groups some peaceful in nature some not so. Survival is the main issue and these groups won´t unite in many decades to build a society. When there is enough people in one place society with the rules of bigger groups will emerge, maybe its ruled by the "elders" those who have knowledge to thrive. We are somewhat weird spieces as invidual gain and benefits are pretty much computed in us and like in every wars in human history there has been people who try to get rich in such a circumstances.
If you have ever read the survival forum.. everything goes... as long as you thrive you don´t give a rats behind for others.. even drugs some people need to keep themselves alive ( like insulin ) is worth of of hoarding by those who dont need them as long as they gain something benefitical for themselves. World will be ugly and when some sort of society is built it wont be a perfect one either .

Expatt888:

How would you try to govern "better more compassionate and responsible society"?


DISRAELI:

Assuming that you would see everything plunging in to chaos, what kind of countermeasures would you apply?

You leave out the most important parameter –
How may people survive and with what geographic dispersion?
If the population was dropped to 10 million world wide, 100,000 small groups would make a 100,000 experiments play out against the local conditions. A localized competition for scarce resources and a spectrum of ideologies would take place.

If a large number survive and the threads of our modern political infrastructure remain, then we are doomed by our immaturity, just as Rainbowresidue asserts.

I believe that a small residue of society could start off in a new direction and be mature enough to advance several generations without disaster.

The KEY issue is size. We have matured enough to make a small society work, applying all of our insights. At some point, maybe it is the sheer numbers or the scarcity of vital resources, but at some point, society becomes self-destructive. We are not mature enough to manage and operate a society of large numbers. That is the root cause of any problem you can name in today’s world.

Resetting the planet, with a mass annilation of humans worldwide, offers a chance for many isolated opportunities, but only a very few would move in a utopian direction. Small groups will try every stripe of organization from despots and warlords to mystical cults.
Its just nature’s way to throw out the beans and see which ones grow. Nature does not care, Sorry, but its almost an accident that the society we know has gotten this is far. It’s Groundhog Day until we stumble on a good way on a good day in the universe.

originally posted by: newthings
You leave out the most important parameter –
How may people survive and with what geographic dispersion?
If the population was dropped to 10 million world wide, 100,000 small groups would make a 100,000 experiments play out against the local conditions. A localized competition for scarce resources and a spectrum of ideologies would take place.

If a large number survive and the threads of our modern political infrastructure remain, then we are doomed by our immaturity, just as Rainbowresidue asserts.

I believe that a small residue of society could start off in a new direction and be mature enough to advance several generations without disaster.

The KEY issue is size. We have matured enough to make a small society work, applying all of our insights. At some point, maybe it is the sheer numbers or the scarcity of vital resources, but at some point, society becomes self-destructive. We are not mature enough to manage and operate a society of large numbers. That is the root cause of any problem you can name in today’s world.

Resetting the planet, with a mass annilation of humans worldwide, offers a chance for many isolated opportunities, but only a very few would move in a utopian direction. Small groups will try every stripe of organization from despots and warlords to mystical cults.
Its just nature’s way to throw out the beans and see which ones grow. Nature does not care, Sorry, but its almost an accident that the society we know has gotten this is far. It’s Groundhog Day until we stumble on a good way on a good day in the universe.

Sorry, I'd clarify that. Let's say on area not much bigger than Ireland, so 10 people/km2. Ocean all around. Friendly, hospitable climate. Plenty of food at start.

I think that as person who is not a native speaker, I have to rephrase the question. I'm not asking about the direction in which society would actually evolve. I'm asking, that if you were on such situation, in which direction you would try to organize a new country under such conditions (or country like entity).

I doubt that starting "a mystical cult" would be your advice. (or maybe theocracies provide social cohesion? ) So if you were in such society how would you suggest to organize it, to work.

a reply to: Shadow1024

If you are starting from square one then you would need to define the most valuble resources for your Species,and to me that would be healthy breeding age women because immediate repopulation would be paramount to Humanities Survival.

As it should be it would be no women no children,those two resources would be all Humanity would have to bank their future on and EVERY SINGLE PERSON would need t give 100% to protecting and preserving this resource.

A global real-time vote as we are heading towards is the optimal managment system for Humanity,NO LEVELS OF REPRESENTATION BEYOND THE INDIVIDUALS VOICE,which will be enforced and protected by law.

If you remove the artificially catalysed levels of representation that all governments have and then manage world resources via Global Humanitarian vote,then we will self-organise,we will come together and optimse the planets resources and grow our population to a sustainable 50-10 billion happy well looked after potential soldiers to fight off the coming Alien hordes.

originally posted by: one4all
a reply to: Shadow1024

If you are starting from square one then you would need to define the most valuble resources for your Species,and to me that would be healthy breeding age women because immediate repopulation would be paramount to Humanities Survival.

As it should be it would be no women no children,those two resources would be all Humanity would have to bank their future on and EVERY SINGLE PERSON would need t give 100% to protecting and preserving this resource.

A global real-time vote as we are heading towards is the optimal managment system for Humanity,NO LEVELS OF REPRESENTATION BEYOND THE INDIVIDUALS VOICE,which will be enforced and protected by law.

If you remove the artificially catalysed levels of representation that all governments have and then manage world resources via Global Humanitarian vote,then we will self-organise,we will come together and optimse the planets resources and grow our population to a sustainable 50-10 billion happy well looked after potential soldiers to fight off the coming Alien hordes.

Do I get it right:
-Direct democracy - OK
-centrally planned? Or some central plan that comes from merging local plans? (Not sure how it is supposed to work)
-pro big family sizes policies - OK

originally posted by: newthings
The KEY issue is size. We have matured enough to make a small society work, applying all of our insights. At some point, maybe it is the sheer numbers or the scarcity of vital resources, but at some point, society becomes self-destructive. We are not mature enough to manage and operate a society of large numbers. That is the root cause of any problem you can name in today’s world.

The problem here is economics of scale - some production (computers, mobile phones) becomes only profitable when you can sell millions devices every year. Otherwise - no point. If you decide to have small, better managed groups you have to deal with problem that you risk regressing to technological level from the eve of industrial revolution.