Texas GOP endorses ‘treatment’ for homosexuality

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Voices of Change

VOC is managed by NARTH’s David Pickup

Voices of Change – Are They Real?
January 8, 2013 By Warren Throckmorton

UPDATE: The Voices of Change website managers (David Pickup and/or Arthur Goldberg) have removed the post referenced below. Here is a screen cap of the section which mentioned Andrew Marin. There is no explanation or note about why the post from December 31 has been removed. What is also odd to me is that the other posts from AJAX are still up. Seems like doubt has now been cast on the other entries from that person.
January 8, 2013 By Warren Throckmorton 31 Comments UPDATE: The Voices of Change website managers (David Pickup and/or Arthur Goldberg) have removed the post referenced below. Here is a screen cap of the section which mentioned Andrew Marin. There is no explanation or note about why the post from December 31 has been removed. What is also odd to me is that the other posts from AJAX are still up. Seems like doubt has now been cast on the other entries from that person. www.patheos.com...

I thought the GOP of Texas was for limited government? apparently, that doesn't include brown people, poor people, abortions, gays, voters, etc....they all need to be heavily regulated.

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Voices of Change

That is hilarious. That counts as facts for you?

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Voices of Change

voices of change. Classic.

This is what counts as evidence to you people?

I found an interesting interview with Dr. Nicholas Cummings. He was the president of the American Psychological Association from 1979 to 1980 and in the interview states that he was the author of the motion to remove homosexuality from the APA's list of mental illnesses and supports gay marriage.

However, he also states:

The APA “started changing pretty drastically by the late 1980s,” said Cummings. “By the mid 1990s, the Leona Tyler principle was absolutely forgotten, that political stances seemed to override any scientific results. Cherry-picking results became the mode. The gay rights movement sort of captured the APA.”

(The article goes on to state that the Leona Tyler Principal "required that all public positions of the APA be supported by scientific evidence)

And:

that the APA has been taken over by “ultraliberals” beholden to the “gay rights movement,” who refuse to allow an open debate on reparative therapy for homosexuality.

Seems to me that his statements at least call into question the idea that the APA is objective.

Regarding his experience with conversion therapy for homosexuals:

“It’s a difficult therapy, and it’s not huge in terms of numbers, but yes we have seen success, and this is why the stance that ‘you can never change’—Ronald Reagan said ‘never say never’—it’s absurd. All you have to do is find one exception and it knocks down the ‘never.’ But yes, I’ve experienced more than one exception,” said Cummings.

“Admittedly we had failures. The recidivism along the way with some would be intense, but we experience the same thing with treating substance abuse and alcoholism. Falling off the wagon is part of the treatment.”

Interview/Article

Apparently Dr. Cummings isn't alone in his views. Robert Perloff, who was president of the APA in 1985 stated in 2001 at the APA convention:

"The APA is too goddamn politically correct...and too goddamn obeisant to special interests!"[

And at a NARTH conference in 2004 Dr. Perloff sates:

"The individual's right for self-determination of sexuality -- or sexual autonomy -- is, I am happy to see, inherent in NARTH's position statement: 'NARTH respects each client's dignity, autonomy, and free agency...every individual has the right to claim a gay identity, or to develop their heterosexual potential. The right to seek therapy to change one's sexual adaptation is considered self-evident and inalienable.' I subscribe fully to the aforementioned NARTH position statement

Source

Sounds to me like there is some question about the objectivity of the APA in the area of homosexuality and that there is more than a little dissension from within the APA about the APA's official statement on homosexual conversion therapy.

originally posted by: jimmyx
I thought the GOP of Texas was for limited government? apparently, that doesn't include brown people, poor people, abortions, gays, voters, etc....they all need to be heavily regulated.

Seriously! You mean the "American Taliban"?

Seems to me, lately, many of the laws and lawsuits are to protect us from them.

Did you know some of the early Southern Baptist were direct descendants of the original Puritans. If you read their history, you'll see the similarity of what's going on today.

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: FlyersFan

If you're going to blame the therapy for the suicides, then we should probably ban PTSD therapy as well.

It's not the only cause, but why add to such a hideous thing only because of social or religious pressure by people who find something distasteful?

a reply to: imwilliam

Thanks for including dates in your articles. That is very important in this subject discussion.

I doubt you will find any credible source today that claims a true homosexual can change to heterosexual.

I do think there are people who's orientation is on the dividing line, and can go either way. Orientation meaning that's how their brain is wired.

NARTH is a joke. A bad joke.

NARTH Promotes Anti-Gay Junk Science, Dave Rattigan on March 12th, 2012

www.exgaywatch.com...

a reply to: Annee

NARTH may be a joke and it may not be, I don't know. But both of these men were former presidents of the APA and were involved in removing homosexuality from the APA's list of mental illnesses. My understanding is that they both support gay marriage and support homosexuals that want to remain homosexuals in doing just that. Nothing I've read from either of them suggests that they think homosexuality in and of itself is "wrong".

However, In recent times they've both made statements that I think puts the objectivity of the APA in regards to homosexual issues into question. In a nutshell, they're saying that the APA is making judgments based on politics rather than science and that they're stifling honest debate within the APA on the issue of reparative therapy for homosexuals who WANT it.

Are they right? Well that remains to be seen, but I'm not sure how someone can dismiss them as lacking credibility out of hand. These men would have been hero's to the homosexual community at one time. These guys aren't homophobes, they're not uneducated or un-credentialed in the field, I've seen no indication that they're what anyone would call a "religious zealot" and they've been inside eye witnesses to the changes in the APA over the last several decades.

Personally, after all I've read and heard. I wouldn't give any credibility to NARTH or anyone connected to it.

Those are the not the credentials that lead him to write “ex-gay” screeds, though, and if Cummings were being honest about the misdirection of his later career, we would not having this conversation, as he would be rightly apprised as unqualified to publish such a piece. The fact is that Nicholas A. Cummings is a NARTH company man.

www.truthwinsout.org...

a reply to: Annee

Hey Anne,

I'd simply ask what they say today.

People do change their views over time and I think it's a smart thing to ask. Here is something written by Cummings thats dated July 30 2013, specifically dealing with Sexual Reorientation therapy:

Link

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

Takes a very special kind of person to advocate government mind programming.You all should be so proud.

It also takes a special kind of person to insinuate things about people who disagree with you. I said the treatment should be available to those who want it.

a reply to: Bone75

I would ask why they would want it.

a reply to: Annee

Would have been nice Anne, given that you changed your post so dramatically, had you just made a new post instead of editing it.

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

voices of change. Classic.

This is what counts as evidence to you people?

A few things to consider as far as evidence goes in this matter...

1. Medical records are not public information
2. No test on the face of this planet definitively determines whether someone is gay or straight
3. People in the 60's and 70's who sought to change their sexual orientation weren't exactly forthcoming with the details
4. It doesn't matter anyways, as the LGBT advocates in this thread have already shown, any evidence I bring forth to support my position will be laughed at and dismissed as rubbish without any scientific scrutiny whatsoever.

originally posted by: whyamIhere
Cure Gay People ?

Oh, this ought to be good.

Isn't the first step of solving a problem admitting you have one ?

I have never met a Gay person who thought it was a problem.

Matter of fact...it's quite the opposite.

Meet "Joy"

I am going through similar things like you. I am 24 years old, gay but don't want to be. I too want a family and find the idea of living with a man slightly absurd and not in sync with my dignity. My relation with my father is extremely poor, he is an emotionally barren man, and even today, doesn't give a **** about my successes or failures. I have never been hugged or touched by him in my life and my problems were never as important his never-ending feeling of grief and resignation from the world.

I had poor relationships with male peers and no real male friends in childhood. All of this has me hungering within for a masculine connection and I believe that is the cause for my homosexual feelings.

I have found an organization that thinks on similar lines and helps people who are like us - NARTH. I am taking therapy too, it's just once a month for now, but hope it helps...

I too see marriage and kids as a way of moving forward in life. I have tried gay sex and every time it leaves me feeling depressed, hollow and with lower self-esteem than before

Now you can say you've met one.



If you anti-treatment people have your way, this person will never see the light of hope. Yet you've criticized me for being anti-freedom on this thread. All I said I would like is for more research and more opportunity for treatment for those, like joy, who want it. It doesn't matter if I believe there is something wrong with gay or not. Its about providing the opportunity for change for those who want to get away from it.

People are criticizing Gov. Rick Perry because he compared homosexuality to alcoholism. The fact is, there ARE people who are gay who don't want to be gay, like Joy, who would say that Rick Perry's stance is rational. Not every gay person wants to be gay. For those people, more research and development of treatment or therapy needs to be supported.

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
a reply to: Bone75

I would ask why they would want it.

Because most of your concerns are justified. Gays ARE subject to bullying, they ARE shunned by their families and their communities. I am in no way denying that reality and I do agree that society and basic human nature are to blame, but that is something you will NEVER change whether you completely destroy Christianity or not.

Some people would rather not deal with that crap for the rest of their lives no matter how proud you are of your own gayness.

a reply to: smithjustinb

'Joy' just seems to be very depressed with very little self-esteem. I'd feel that way after sex, too if it was ingrained in me to do so.

I think you'll notice that while 'Joy' might not want to be gay and is taking some sort of therapy - she will always be gay. She can behave and act in any manner she likes, but unless she is bisexual, she will remain gay her entire life.

a reply to: Bone75

You just hit the nail on the head - gays might try not to be gay because of the bullying behavior of very people that are 'offering' them this so-called therapy.

The fact that this therapy exists is a gross display of homosexuality's misunderstanding at the very least and I'd go as far to say a dark and sinister effort to train people how to be good little liars to themselves and everyone else.

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
a reply to: smithjustinb

'Joy' just seems to be very depressed with very little self-esteem. I'd feel that way after sex, too if it was ingrained in me to do so.

I think you'll notice that while 'Joy' might not want to be gay and is taking some sort of therapy - she will always be gay. She can behave and act in any manner she likes, but unless she is bisexual, she will remain gay her entire life.

You're wrong.

n May 2001, Robert Spitzer presented Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? 200 Participants Reporting a Change from Homosexual to Heterosexual Orientation", a study of attempts to change homosexual orientation through ex-gay ministries and conversion therapy, at the American Psychiatric Association's convention in New Orleans. The study was partly a response to the APA's 2000 statement cautioning against clinical attempts at changing homosexuality, and was aimed at determining whether such attempts were ever successful rather than how likely it was that change would occur for any given individual. Spitzer wrote that some earlier studies provided evidence for the effectiveness of therapy in changing sexual orientation, but that all of them suffered from methodological problems.[6]

He reported that after intervention, 66% of the men and 44% of the women had achieved "Good Heterosexual Functioning", which he defined as requiring five criteria (being in a loving heterosexual relationship during the last year, overall satisfaction in emotional relationship with a partner, having heterosexual sex with the partner at least a few times a month, achieving physical satisfaction through heterosexual sex, and not thinking about having homosexual sex more than 15% of the time while having heterosexual sex). He found that the most common reasons for seeking change were lack of emotional satisfaction from gay life, conflict between same-sex feelings and behavior and religious beliefs, and desire to marry or remain married.[6][85][dead link] This paper was widely reported in the international media and taken up by politicians in the United States, Germany, and Finland, and by conversion therapists.[6]