The ultimate contradiction.

God in all His Bright Ideas came up with a simple plan, You! Most claim God this or God that yet never really understanding what He did. Freewill is a word created by Man, as with Time, Faith and whatever other names one uses to side step ones way of Life.

Their is not a single person who can claim Freewill is even real, since then you would have to add God into it and who really wants to go into fairy tails? Oh My God! Fairy Tails? Stories told from long ago to trap you into believing something Outside Yourself has the Key to your understanding if One chooses.

Since Sin is rated by the masses, the more people, more things called Sin. Yet hidden under the story of Sin is related to Relg and how You can be Saved! Yet if one is an @sshole, backstabber, cheater, bent on total power; One should get His Due in Time by....................................Others! Although it seems the Bad ones are having more fun, later in life when it catches up to them, who do they turn to?

Since when did God have a 911 #? Paryer, repent and Faith still will not Help you! Oh, so somehow I planned on being a dick this lifetime, share my evil doings and it Was Okay? Wait, hold on. Just in..........told I was to go about doing this because God wanted me to Teach Others so they might Learn.

What we have here is the Lie told from long ago, more like Changed to fit a need and nothing more. Now one can Choose to do something nice or do whatever they want, it is your choice. Simple plan really, until people Learn that their Life is How one Makes It. Yet ask any holy roller, goddie 2 shoes, and the nice guy does it work that way.

Hell No! Things do happen to toss all your cards down just when you Thought you had the winning Hand in Life! Still a choice is there, you alone should make it. What gets people into trouble is asking Outside yourself, friends, loved ones, parents. Since they only Know what you told them and what they might have seen is Never the Real Story.

Freewill is the power to Choose For Yourself! Since God is not around; maybe He's out Creating and left you to Learn to do the same. We have so many Ideas, Thoughts, Plans and even Pills to show a person How to cope with Life. Yet if your not using Your Freewill, might as well Follow what the masses do.

The Contradiction exist only because what one has learned and never took the time to actually Question what was being feed to them at the time. So jump into yourself and dig up your Mind Box! Or start tearing into the Holes one claims they have in their Hearts. Ones mind Thinks it understands so places ideas into a box and leaves it, called Auto Pilot. As for the Holes one has, that is the parts of The Walls you so enclosed yourself in as to not allow any more pain.

Take a day, week and look at that box you carry around coming at you with, I know this, can work that, already have that planned ideas. Your mind gathers data, stores it for later and when something happens, Flash Back! Yet it's only 11 am and the Day is New! Trick is to stop and see Why, Ask and see if somehow your creating something from the past relating it to Now and if it still Holds True!

As for Ones Heart, pain is only their because you either know you did something or not doing what needs to be done. So much for Gods Freewill idea don't you Think? In the end, after its all done and say you make it to 80. Thank God when you see Him that you come to Learn what Knowing Thyself really means!

Peace

To those who are saying god knowing ahead of time still leaves me with a choice: How is that feasible? To me it makes no logical sense. If god knew what I was going to do, long before my birth, then it had to be pre-planned. There is no other logical explanation. And if it were planned before my birth, I have no free will.

And here is another question: Can god, or can god not, create something he himself can not lift?
Either way you go, gods power is not infinite.

If a god knows everything you'll ever do, then your
Iife is already laid out for you. You were always going to make the choices you make and it couldn't have been any other way.

This does not mean a god has to have control over a persons life, it just has a road map detailing every twist and turn. Thus you ultimately have no 'free will' (if such a thing even exists).

Silly beliefs are silly...

a reply to: jjsr420

If god knew what I was going to do, long before my birth, then it had to be pre-planned. There is no other logical explanation. And if it were planned before my birth, I have no free will.

This is the second thread on this subject that I've seen in as many days, and it comes up over and over.

I seriously do not understand why people can't grasp a simple concept -- we believe that God exists outside of time, so all time is "now" for him, that's how he knows what will happen in your life. He doesn't "plan" it, he just knows it before you do.

But your life is still your decisions. He knows what you will decide before you decide it, but it's still you deciding. Let's say that you have two choices, A and B. God knows that you'll choose B, and when the time comes to decide, you weigh your options and go with B, based on whatever criteria you have. What if you change your mind and go with A, instead? Then God would have foreseen that you would pick A, not B.

Anything else is a logical impossibility, as is your "can God make something so big he can't lift it?" question. Logical impossibilities, like "can God make a square circle?" are pointless questions, and usually indicate that someone doesn't have a very good grasp of theology, because they're not an argument against God's existence.

The answer you want, can be found within you, as you seem to have a good grasp of theology, in the fact you want to understand, more truly, your own concept of religious tradition, but asking the question, is only part of the answer, you seek.

a reply to: adjensen

I seriously do not understand why people can't grasp a simple concept --

Oh! Do go on........We're listening!

we believe that God exists outside of time, so all time is "now" for him, that's how he knows what will happen in your life. He doesn't "plan" it, he just knows it before you do.

So God has no plan.

But your life is still your decisions.

Was it our decision to have life?

He knows what you will decide before you decide it, but it's still you deciding. Let's say that you have two choices, A and B. God knows that you'll choose B, and when the time comes to decide, you weigh your options and go with B, based on whatever criteria you have. What if you change your mind and go with A, instead? Then God would have foreseen that you would pick A, not B.

You don't get it. If there is predestination, if there is such a thing as "destiny", then there is no free will.

Anything else is a logical impossibility

LOL Your God is logically impossible.

a reply to: jjsr420

Instead of Trying to make sense of it; really no proven fact's that what you have in question even exists anyway, let it go!

The mind having a flaw, is the need to Understand things, With the mind. Right now your Not Having the problem, the mind is.It's more like believing that their is no way in hell aliens exist, defend that for say 20yrs and just so happens. One day while getting off from work. While doing the long drive, you see something. So you go about seeing whats up and Oh My God!

Saw the whole thing down to the small guy relieving itself while running to the ship! lol Could happen! Your mind just shut down, everything until then was good, peaceful and same old thing everyday of the week. Now your mind just went into blowing a fuse, system down.

If your mind is open, enjoy what you just seen just don't go making something Other then what it was. Now if say you have a closed mind. Well shock, flight and running for your life just went into Auto! It does not Know what To Do nor ever even allowed and play Time on the matter. So could have been seeing #, trick of the light, stress. Whatever ideas can start the flow again. Of course, one could end up replaying this for days! If say a Very Closed minded person, could end up lasting for years!

Or one can drop the Idea for the time being, allowing the deeper mind to work on it. Then a day or maybe a week flows by and something comes by and you go, Okay. Would have never thought, info comes in many forms! Stay in tune to the now, today and whats going on right now is whats real.

Only there is the problem, another idea to play with! Since how do you know right now reading this is actually real and not a dream?

Peace

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: jjsr420

God is a metaphysical being.
All logic and reason breaks down when dealing with metaphysics.

That's the reason humans need to anthropomorphise God into a fatherlike figure. They simply can't cognatively
wrap their heads around anything outside of their primitive sense organs and undeveloped intellect.

That's why we have FAITH.....another intellectual construct that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

All the huge volumes of philosophy, religion, cosmology, etc. are nothing more that intellectual masturbation, supposition, all wrapped up in a layer of BS.....or what is commonly known as language.....but that's another subject all together.

Hard to define 'metaphysical' within my nomenclature it (god) is a plasma force of binary information only; just expressing itself, I agree with everything you have stated, Man seems to want to define God in ITS OWN image which is backwards to the truth; man is just an extension of God Aspect expressing ITSELF. Man takes too much credit for something it doesn't understand. Faith is a good thing, in the sense it does (or should not) encompass belief systems which are generally false. Faith in the 'idea of something new' or being open to it is different that march step into the belief void/abyss.

a reply to: windword
How is it a cop-out?

In so far as those religions/faiths/beliefs go that adhere to (or can be interpreted to adhere to) God-given free will as well as an omniscient God (in this context mostly talking about most branches of the Abrahamic religions), as far as humans go, God does not interfere. This in no way contradicts the idea that God would know what happens to each and every one of us. I do not know what you mean by "being entertained".

I'm not even taking this from a religious standpoint, even if just considering it as an exercise in logic, foreknowledge of events is not a negation of free will.

For another example,
if you created a machine to travel through time and read a history book in the future, would free will suddenly be negated?
What if no one ever time-traveled. Would free will suddenly exist?
What if someone from the future came back to the past, and killed you before you invented the time machine. Would free will have not existed for them, but then it exists for us now?

Free Will vs Omniscient God is a false dichotomy. While I'm sure there are religions that have an omniscient god that preach predestination, a fixed fate is not a prerequisite of an omniscient god.
I see it more as an ultimate misunderstanding rather than an ultimate contradiction. Predestination might be the opposite of free will, but having foreknowledge of events isn't the same as predestination.

originally posted by: jjsr420
Been wanting to post this for a while, it's something I never got about the various faiths that hold the bible as the ultimate in truth. Aight, i'm gonna go ahead, and jump in. Please, everyone use -logical- arguments when debating.

Definition of Omnipotence:
om·nip·o·tence
ämˈnipətəns/Submit
noun
the quality of having unlimited or very great power.
"God's omnipotence"
synonyms: all-powerfulness, almightiness, supremacy, preeminence, supreme power, absolute power, unlimited power; More

Definition of Omniescense:
om·nis·cient
ämˈniSHənt/Submit
adjective
knowing everything.
"the story is told by an omniscient narrator"
synonyms: all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing More

Ok, so 'God' is supposed to be all-powerful, and all-knowing. Being all-knowing means that he knew what we were going to do before we did it. So, my question is this: If 'God' knew what we were going to do -before- we did it, how can people say that we have free will? How can we be blamed for sins, when 'The Lord our God' made it this way? It seems like a huge contra diction to me. If 'god' planned it this way, we can't be fauled for 'His' plan.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

a reply to: babloyi

God does not interfere.

Nonsense! The whole Bible is about "God" interfering. That's why Christians pray!

I'm not even taking this from a religious standpoint, even if just considering it as an exercise in logic, foreknowledge of events is not a negation of free will.

Yes it is.

if you created a machine to travel through time and read a history book in the future, would free will suddenly be negated?

If the version of God that Christians promote is true, then free will would never have existed in the first place. The time machine would have only made that fact clear to the observer.

Free Will vs Omniscient God is a false dichotomy.

Agreed, either there is no such thing as free will, or there is no Omniscient God. The false dichotomy is that that God would judge and condemn humans based on their predestination.

a reply to: babloyi

I'm not even taking this from a religious standpoint, even if just considering it as an exercise in logic, foreknowledge of events is not a negation of free will.

Excuse the interruption.

But - for clarity's sake:
If God wants people to be perfect, and also "knows" what they will do - why does God not create them perfect in the first place; program the 'person' to not do those things? THAT would be true benevolence. That little talking head on your shoulder, or voice in your ear, that says, "nonono...don't do that."

Even NON-religious people (in fact, MOST PEOPLE, whether religious or not) have that internalized "nonono" voice.

It makes no sense that a Creator God would make defective products just for the glee of watching them burn in the fire-pit. That is psychopathic tyrannical behavior.

a reply to: jjsr420

Greetings and Namaste, my friend.

First of all, you must first realize that God has many, many levels throughout this Universe and our neighboring Universes. You may not know it, but you are also a level of God. God is, indeed, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. Did you know that you are ONE with God? If you do, then should also know that you can function at a high level of consciousness as God. But being in the 3rd Dimension (the lowest and most dense world), it's hard to grasp such a concept.

Speaking of the 3rd Dimensional Reality, the way this world is designed, yes, you do have free will. However, as some may say, "there are no accidents." The free will people refer to (although they may not know what it is they are referring to) is the choices you make to experience this reality. And this affects the experience that you get in life. These choices that you make were already made BEFORE you came into a physical body. You agreed as a Soul that you wanted to meet certain people, make certain decisions, live in certain areas, to have certain parents, etc. For example, you are destined to marry a woman named, Victoria. But 10 years later after marriage, you decided that moving to Thailand is what you wanted to experience in life. Your wife objects to it 100%. But you still want to do it. Because of this move to Thailand, you end up divorcing your wife and moving there. This creates Karma for yourself that can affect you in a future life, or even a few years later. But that's another subject to handle. So are you blamed for this Karma (Eastern) or Sin (Western) that you created? No. But the Universe will balance itself by bringing it back to you, either it be good or bad, depending on the type of Karma created. It's just part of living in the Duality Consciousness of this world.

This "moving to Thailand" part of your life was already what you wanted BEFORE you came to physical Earth. It was not God's decision. It was yours. You see, when people reincarnate over and over, they forget their previous memories, both in their prior Earthly lives and when they were in the 4th Dimension without a physical body.

There is much more to understanding the reality that we live in. But it is a topic for another time.

originally posted by: 2human
Hi. I think your question is another demonstration of the absurdity of a supreme being altogether. An omnipotent being would surely know what everyone needed in order for all people to live wonderfully joyful lives together and would have the power to make that come true?!


a reply to: jjsr420

And that same being could also use free agency to do its own will.

Because YOU want it to do what you want means that you must have some omnipotence yourself, because you assign parameters. Are you the parameter master who dictates what supreme beings must do?

It is interesting to me that people will continue to use the "no free will" notion to try to convince others to choose to reject further personal research and insights when it comes to an ultimate authority known as Jesus. Pity the anti-christ arguements are so weak and trivial, grasping at the wind and avoiding the areas of substance.
And why bother,then, talking down to me...if you're convinced that you can say something very clever to "put me in my place", don't be too harsh, afterall, I don't have free will....right? smh

a reply to: jjsr420

Thousands upon thousands are waiting in the valley of decision. There the day of the LORD will soon arrive.
Joel 3:14

a reply to: windword

originally posted by: windword

God does not interfere.

Nonsense! The whole Bible is about "God" interfering. That's why Christians pray!

All right. If we take this argument in the context of a judeo-christian god, please show me where in the Bible God demonstrated a direct manipulation of the will of a human.

originally posted by: windword
If the version of God that Christians promote is true, then free will would never have existed in the first place. The time machine would have only made that fact clear to the observer.

I was giving an example to illustrate the absurdity of the idea that foreknowledge of events means free will doesn't exist. Like I said, try looking at it as a logical argument.

originally posted by: windword
Agreed, either there is no such thing as free will, or there is no Omniscient God. The false dichotomy is that that God would judge and condemn humans based on their predestination.

That's not really what a false dichotomy is. That's not a dichotomy at all. Another example of a false dichotomy would be "You can either like pasta or you can like hamburgers". Liking pasta doesn't negate liking hamburgers, and vice versa.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
But would that be free will?

a reply to: babloyi

All right. If we take this argument in the context of a judeo-christian god, please show me where in the Bible God demonstrated a direct manipulation of the will of a human.

There are plenty examples of God manipulating free will. He hardened Pharaoh's heart. He shipwrecked and then had Jonah swallowed by a whale, he sends whoever he wants "strong delusions" and in the end, Jesus' famous prayer, "Not my will, but thine." defines a good Christian. That is the goal of a good Christian, to give up one's own will and allow God to manipulate his will through you; for HIS will to be your will!

One my favorites is this "shot gun marriage" proposal to the Israelites, after HE get's them out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 13:15

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

"Love me or die~" Not my idea of a god that's supportive of free will.

I was giving an example to illustrate the absurdity of the idea that foreknowledge of events means free will doesn't exist. Like I said, try looking at it as a logical argument.

You analogy is like suggesting that an author knows how the story in his book ends, but isn't responsible for how his characters got to those ends, or why.

That's not really what a false dichotomy is. That's not a dichotomy at all. Another example of a false dichotomy would be "You can either like pasta or you can like hamburgers". Liking pasta doesn't negate liking hamburgers, and vice versa.

A god that created everything, is everywhere all at once, knows everything to the end of eternity, that would judge us, his beloved creation, and send us to be tortured for eternity in hell because of the way we navigated through his creation........ BUT, to save us from his judgement, he sent himself as a sacrifice to himself....................well, you get it....

THAT'S a dichotomy, I do believe.......

a reply to: ctophil
YES, YES, and MORE YES's to all warm cookies. This is my truth as well. In short; I planned my total existence before incarnating here in the 3D; (I WROTE MY OWN SCRIPT), problem is (here is the sneaky part never told to you); the caveat YOU FORGET YOUR OWN purpose for the incarnation. As soon as I pulled in that first breath of air (why do you think newborns cry instead of laugh? same amount of air being drawn in) because they are thinking; 'holy crap IM ALIVE" and have to relearn Everything from scratch still the same script I designed for myself (learning/progression of/for my soul growth) and I FORGOT all of its contents (but must recognize every experience as I set it up and must understand this was my life plan its the recognition that is the key). There is no such thing as fate and destiny, no victims here; and if one is experiencing prior karma; your script didn't include it so its your bad (all on you).

a reply to: windword

originally posted by: windword
There are plenty examples of God manipulating free will. He hardened Pharaoh's heart. He shipwrecked and then had Jonah swallowed by a whale, he sends whoever he wants "strong delusions" and in the end, Jesus' famous prayer, "Not my will, but thine." defines a good Christian. That is the goal of a good Christian, to give up one's own will and allow God to manipulate his will through you; for HIS will to be your will!


One my favorites is this "shot gun marriage" proposal to the Israelites, after HE get's them out of Egypt.

You realise that aside from maybe the "hardening the heart" thing, none of those are examples of what I asked. A restriction of choices or the insertion of consequences, or even the (voluntarily chosen) path of following something other than what one may wish is not the same as the removal of the agency to make a choice (or make none at all).

originally posted by: windword
You analogy is like suggesting that an author knows how the story in his book ends, but isn't responsible for how his characters got to those ends, or why.

Who said he was the author? My entire point is that he is not, because of free will. In this context, all of humanity, with their actions and choices, wrote the book.

originally posted by: windword
A god that created everything, is everywhere all at once, knows everything to the end of eternity, that would judge us, his beloved creation, and send us to be tortured for eternity in hell because of the way we navigated through his creation........ BUT, to save us from his judgement, he sent himself as a sacrifice to himself....................well, you get it....

THAT'S a dichotomy, I do believe.......

"Division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups". So yeah, neither a dichotomy nor a false dichotomy. It might be illogical, but it isn't a dichotomy.
Perhaps the phrasing "either-or fallacy" or "fallacy of the excluded middle" would be more helpful.

I feel you are letting your bias against christianity colour your understanding. To be clear, I don't agree with Christianity as it exists today, but that doesn't mean that I find them wrong at every turn, whether they actually are or not.