Scottish independence: Barack Obama backs 'strong and united' UK

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Glad I got a chuckle

I totally agree, even the best polls can be wrong 5% in either direction, which can make all the difference. The only one that really counts is the vote on the 18th - I can only hope you guys vote to stay, I don't believe breaking the country into smaller chunks will benefit anyone except the very few at the top.

Certainly, I believe the current view of the SNP on a Post-Independence Scotland is based on so many assumptions, what-if's and creative accounting that it would end up being the worse move Scotland has made since some bright spark suggested setting up a colony near Panama....

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: angelchemuel
Hi Stu *waves*

Bonjour!


Personally, I wouldn't be surprised - I also find it very odd that the Pro-Independence camp seem to very Pro-EU - it seems to be swapping one institution you can at least have an element of control (Westminster) to one that you have no control over at all (Brussels) and not really having gained independence at all, but instead surrendered even more sovereignty to a foreign power.

See, there lies the problem, Scotland share of the vote has never influenced one single general election. we would be as well just not turning up...at least in a Independent Scotland, Scots will get the Government WE vote for.

a reply to: crazyewok

yeah it kinda sucks when foreigners have something to say abut your business doesn't it?




www.abovetopsecret.com...
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www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Glad I got a chuckle

I totally agree, even the best polls can be wrong 5% in either direction, which can make all the difference. The only one that really counts is the vote on the 18th - I can only hope you guys vote to stay, I don't believe breaking the country into smaller chunks will benefit anyone except the very few at the top.

Certainly, I believe the current view of the SNP on a Post-Independence Scotland is based on so many assumptions, what-if's and creative accounting that it would end up being the worse move Scotland has made since some bright spark suggested setting up a colony near Panama....

You do paint the darkest of pictures Stu...So lets talk about creative accounting for a moment....
What do you make of Danny Alexanders overly inflated figures ( by a factor of 12) on the start up cost of a Independent Scotland ...Not only was he proven a Liar, he was condemned by the Professors who did the maths for him.. lets talk about this "creative accounting"

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
See, there lies the problem, Scotland share of the vote has never influenced one single general election. we would be as well just not turning up...at least in a Independent Scotland, Scots will get the Government WE vote for.

That's not an entirely accurate picture there is it - what you're actually moaning about is that Scottish vote share doesn't produce a Government that does precisely what Scotland wants, instead being one of all four nations.

You do, uniquely in the UK, have you're own parliament and laws - plus Westminster has just passed a new Scotland Act given even more powers to Scotland including taxation and revenue raising powers. England has no such Parliament and are subject to the whims of MP's from all four nations.

That said, Scotland has done very well out of the 13 years of Labour, for example, when Scotland returned (in 1997) 56 Labour MP's out of a total of 418 such MP's returned by the whole country - 13% of Labours seats - when they only have 8% of the population, so they very much do have an effect on election outcomes.

You also seem to ignore the huge amount of Scottish PM's and Chancellors we've had over the years, not to mention the votes in parliament that have affected only English matters which hinged on the Scottish MP's voting in favour, such as tuition fee's for example - quite happy to stick it to the English but won't have them north of the border, hey?

a wee list of countries, that have stopped being part of this unworkable extended union... none of which , hated Alex Salmond, and very very few have nukes in their back yard..and not one has asked to come back into the fold.
Alabama
Antigua and Barbuda
Archipelago of San Andrés, Providencia and Santa Catalina
Australia
B
Bangladesh
Barbados
Basutoland
Belize
History of Belize
Bengkulu
Berbice
Bermuda
Black River (settlement)
British Bencoolen
Colony of British Columbia (1858–66)
Colony of British Columbia (1866–71)
British Honduras
British Kaffraria
British Western Pacific Territories
Brunei
Burma
British rule in Burma
C
Canada
Province of Canada
The Canadas
Cape Breton Island
Cape Colony
Province of Carolina
Carriacou and Petite Martinique
British Ceylon
Chesapeake Colonies
Chopawamsic
Colonial Nigeria
Colonial Fiji
Côn Đảo
Connecticut
Connecticut Colony
Cook Islands
Cook Islands Federation
Cyprus
D
Delaware
Delaware Colony
Demerara
Demerara-Essequibo
Dog Island, Gambia
E
East Jersey
Essequibo (colony)
F
Falkland Islands Dependencies
Fiji
Florida
G
Gambia Colony and Protectorate
The Gambia
Georgia (U.S. state)
Province of Georgia
Gilbert and Ellice Islands
Gold Coast (British colony)
Grenada
Guadeloupe
British Guiana
H
Heligoland
Hilton Young Commission
Hong Kong
H cont.
British Hong Kong
I
India
J
Jamaica
Colony of Jamaica
Jordan
Jubaland
K
British Kenya
Kunta Kinteh Island
L
Crown Colony of Labuan
Lagos
Lagos Colony
Lakshadweep
British Leeward Islands
Lower Canada
M
Maine
Malacca (British Crown colony)
Malayan Union
Malaysia
Malta
Maryland
Province of Maryland
Massachusetts
Province of Massachusetts Bay
Mauritius
Middle Colonies
Minorca
Mississippi
Mombasa
N
Colony of Natal
New Brunswick
New England Colonies
New Hampshire
Province of New Hampshire
New Hebrides
New Jersey
Province of New Jersey
New South Wales
New York
Province of New York
New Zealand
Colony of New Zealand
Newfoundland and Labrador
Newfoundland Colony
Nicobar Islands
Nigeria
Colony and Protectorate of Nigeria
Nikumaroro
North Australia
Crown Colony of North Borneo
North Carolina
Province of North Carolina
Nova Scotia
Nyasaland
O
Ohio
History of Ohio
Ohio Country
Orange River Colony
Orange River Sovereignty
P
Pakistan
Territory of Papua
Pennsylvania
Province of Pennsylvania
P cont.
Plymouth Company
Prince Edward Island
History of Pulicat
Q
Province of Quebec (1763–91)
Colony of the Queen Charlotte Islands
Queensland
R
Restoration (Colonies)
Rhode Island
Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
Northern Rhodesia
Colonial history of Southern Rhodesia
Southern Rhodesia
Rodrigues
Rupert's Land
S
Sabah
Saint Christopher-Nevis-Anguilla
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Sarawak
Crown Colony of Sarawak
Sheikhdom of Kuwait
Singapore
Singapore in the Straits Settlements
Post-war Singapore
South Africa
South Australia
South Carolina
Province of South Carolina
South Sudan
Southern Colonies
Stoddart Island
Straits Settlements
Sudan
T
Tasmania
Colony of Tasmania
Thirteen Colonies
Tobago
Tokelau
Transvaal Colony
Trinidad
Trinidad and Tobago
U
File talk:United Kingdom (overseas+crown dependencies), administrative divisions - Nmbrs (multiple zoom).svg
United States
Historic regions of the United States
Upper Canada
V
Van Diemen's Land
Colony of Vancouver Island
Victoria (Australia)
Colony of Virginia
W
Walvis Bay
Weihai (British Colony)
Wessagusset Colony
British West Africa
West Indies Federation
West Jersey
Western Australia
Western Samoa Trust Territory
British Windward Islands
Wituland
Z
Zimbabwe
Zulu Kingdom...

Next...Scotland.

a reply to: stumason

Hi Stu, thought you would have ventured in at some point.
1st of all I have Alex on video saying we will never join the Euro, I can try and find it if you want but I believe what he says when he says it & why wouldn't i, he is the head of the Nationalist party. As you know we aren't joining the EU but are negotiating our continued membership within it, if they wish to not allow us to continue, I can put money on it that we will not rejoin the EU but setup individual trading agreements between common trading partners like England and the rest of the UK.
Norway seem to do fine outside of the EU using the EEA & EFTA agreements.

And don't think Scotland is pro EU and Pro SNP were not, the only reason in the upturn in the fortunes of the SNP is the government in England. The SNP got a bit of a slap in the local european elections and rightly so but people are now starting to realise that this isn't a vote for the SNP but for our independence. I personally feel if we get independence that we would more than likely get a coalition government unless the SNP change it's stance on the EU situation.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
See, there lies the problem, Scotland share of the vote has never influenced one single general election. we would be as well just not turning up...at least in a Independent Scotland, Scots will get the Government WE vote for.

That's not an entirely accurate picture there is it - what you're actually moaning about is that Scottish vote share doesn't produce a Government that does precisely what Scotland wants, instead being one of all four nations.

You do, uniquely in the UK, have you're own parliament and laws - plus Westminster has just passed a new Scotland Act given even more powers to Scotland including taxation and revenue raising powers. England has no such Parliament and are subject to the whims of MP's from all four nations.

That said, Scotland has done very well out of the 13 years of Labour, for example, when Scotland returned (in 1997) 56 Labour MP's out of a total of 418 such MP's returned by the whole country - 13% of Labours seats - when they only have 8% of the population, so they very much do have an on election outcomes.

You also seem to ignore the huge amount of Scottish PM's and Chancellors we've had over the years, not to mention the votes in parliament that have affected only English matters which hinged on the Scottish MP's voting in favour, such as tuition fee's for example - quite happy to stick it to the English but won't have them north of the border, hey?

Bollocks...complete and utter Bollocks. i dont know where you are getting you facts from but they are so far out it's unbelievable.
New tax laws.. is this what you are talking about...well thanks very much Wastemonster...thanks for nothing..
Thanks for Nothing



The Scotland Act 2012 does not change eight of the nine important taxes.

It gives Scotland control over 10% of its income tax revenue and also makes tiny changes to some of the smaller taxes.

Scotlands Vote
The truth is that Labour doesn’t need Scottish MPs, and an independent Scotland would NOT give the Tories a permanent majority in the remnant UK. Those are the facts, and voters should be deeply mistrustful of anyone who tells them anything else.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

So, you only wish to address a single line a much larger post?

This is why I don't debate with you Solo, you go off half-cocked over a single point.

I never even claimed the new Scotland Act was anything that important, just using it to highlight the fact that Scotland already has a fair degree of autonomy and self-governance while England, alone in the Union, has laws foisted upon it by MP's whose constituencies lie elsewhere in response to your claim that no election has ever been in Scotland's favour, which is the real bollocks being posted here. Even the Welsh and Northern Irish have limited home rule while England sits under the purview of the UK parliament.

But no, let's focus on 20 words and ignore the rest.

posted by Soloprotocol
Scotlands Vote
The truth is that Labour doesn’t need Scottish MPs, and an independent Scotland would NOT give the Tories a permanent majority in the remnant UK. Those are the facts, and voters should be deeply mistrustful of anyone who tells them anything else.

I never said anything about Labour "needing" Scotland's vote at all, or that the England will have a permanent Tory Government either, so not sure why you felt this was relevant...

a reply to: mclarenmp4

Those free trade agreements come at a cost, you know. The EU didn't just say to Norway "Yeah, get the free trade for nothing, that's cool" - Norway has to pay for this and also has no say on how the EU functions - the EEA for example only allows EU members to be able to influence policy, non EU members still have to adopt all EU legislation (except agriculture and fisheries) while having no influence on said legislation when it is being formed.

Personally, given the choice, being in the EU is far better than being in the EEA.

Norway is also a country where taxation is incredibly high - the highest, I believe, in the developed world....

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Hope all is good with you Gordi

The vast majority of people feel exactly the same as the majority of Scots about most the things you list - you aren't unique in your disillusionment and disgust.
We are all sick to death of the London centric nature of UK politics and the economy.
We are all sick to death of the amoral and corrupt alliance between politicians / judiciary / Senior Civil Servant, Military and Police and the bankers and industrialists.

Remember, two of the last three PM's have been Scottish and the current PM has Scottish ancestry - they've all been actively complicit in all the actions you express disgust with.

I honestly don't know why you would expect it to be any different in an independent Scotland - its going to be the same set of bastards governing you then as there are now.
You don't think they'll give up their control quite so easily and meekly do you?

As if you need any reminding its still worth noting that it was a Scotsman who deliberately lied to us and misled Parliament to take us into an illegal war none of us wanted.

And to be honest, I don't know how an independent nation can still be part of any Union that it has broken away from - of course there will still be ties and relations.....but you won't be British and you won't be in this great Union of our's - or at least working towards changing this great Union into something we can ALL be proud of.
You say you believe we are stronger as a Union but want independence - sorry mate, I just don't see how that can possibly be - at least not without devolved power to ALL the regions of the UK, which is essentially what you have now anyway.

You imply that Scotland votes in the UK are irrelevant - the same can be said for North East England, North West England and Yorkshire - you are not alone.
One of the biggest impacts on me personally if Scotland votes for independence will be condemning England and the rest of the UK to a permanent Tory government.

As for the anti-English thing - that's Salmond and Sturgeon for you. They clearly hate and despise anything and everything English. I am well aware that's not true of most Scots, its not even true of most Nats - but there is undeniably an element of it there and Salmond and Sturgeon quite cleverly play on it at every opportunity whilst appealing to the natural romantic nature of the Scottish people.

London and the system it upholds is out of control and needs reigning in with a 'full system re-boot' before it consumes us all.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

What a crock of BS - most (if not all) of those countries where NEVER PART OF THE UNION - also, it has to be said, Scotland was more than happy to take part in the Empire building and did very nicely indeed out of it.

Relevance?

None...

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Err......not one of that extensive list was ever at any time a full and equal part of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Scotland is.
Those countries / Dependencies etc 'broke free' as much from Scottish control as it did from England, Wales, Northern Ireland or simply the UK's.

Again you are spreading blatant misinformation.

And still you fail to reply to the majority of direct questions that have been directed to you.

ETA

Ha, you beat me to it stu.

a reply to: Matt1951

The Scots helped considerably the 1st time you broke away from an oppressive UK government so you would certainly get our support if it ever happened again, only morally of course. The man that wrote your declaration of independence was taught in Scotland and over half of those who signed it were Scottish or of Scottish descent.
Your deceleration of independence was modeled from our Declaration of Arbroath, which is why Obama's comments are so naive.

a reply to: stumason

Make your mind up Stu, you go all negative saying we're doomed to the EU and losing sovereignty to them and then when I explain that it goes against the current feeling and explain why. All of a sudden is oh it'll be better to stay in the EU won't cost you as much etc..
Yes Norway has high taxation and they have a very strict government that limits off licenses to open at weekends etc.. but that's always been their way, it wouldn't have to be like that in an Independent Scotland.
And I actually believe a stronger Scotland would balance out the power of Westminster and we have such strong cultural and trade ties the only breaking up of the union will be that we take control of our decisions to a government that actually represents us.

They want us to believe that it will divide us and that we will build a new hadrian wall but that won't happen we are too close to our UK brethren.

Bugger this, i'm away to listen to Van Halen does Jimmy Shand.

a reply to: Freeborn

It's also worth pointing out more than a few in that list are repeats or actually form a much larger nation (13 Colonies, anyone?) so it's bulked out to look bigger than it is.

Secondly, some on there remain Overseas Territories of the UK.

Thirdly, many more on there did no such thing as "break free" but where instead granted independence post-WW2 as a result of the UN Charter.

But hey, why bother with facts when Solo is in town?

OK Freeborn and Stumason how about this one, Ireland. They were British once and are doing alright now.

Give me one reason why we, the Scots, are "better together". one