Scottish independence: Barack Obama backs 'strong and united' UK

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
See, there lies the problem, Scotland share of the vote has never influenced one single general election. we would be as well just not turning up...at least in a Independent Scotland, Scots will get the Government WE vote for.

I couldn't agree more, in fact if the no gets it in September, I won't vote again unless there is another referendum.

Of course the other thing that bothers me is that if we don't get independence we will be slapped like a ginger step-child by Westminster for our rebellious ways...

originally posted by: TritonTaranis Hey want to get even richer? Support and fund the campaign for Scotland's 1% "No one bullied or targeted us."

And yet here you are targeting them...so what if two extremely rich Scots want to fund the Yes campaign, they were pro independence before they won that money...it's RichTories in London that's funding the No Campaign.

You seem to fixate in we are better together...Could you tell me how we are better together. better in what way that we wouldn't be in a independent country.

originally posted by: TritonTaranis
More facts for the delusional

Is that where you get your information from...Better together... lol
Biggest liars in this referendum, when someone lies to win an argument they have already lost it.

They are bricking it. when challenged on this Camorons puppet Clegg said he tends not to believe in what the polls show...they why the hell did they spend £50,000 of our money on a poll when they believe they are not worth the paper they are written on. come the 19th a certain faction within Scotland will be shell shocked. expect Bullets and Bombs in the post.
Min isters hush up Ipsos mori poll

The oil debate for Busy people

a reply to: djz3ro

Without the Scots vote most of the rest of the UK is doomed to conservative governance forever and ever So we do have some influence. The most shameful occasion of Scottish politicians influence on the UK parliament as far as I'm concerned was the vote for tuition fees south of the border. Without the Scottish mp's votes it would never have been passed. A perfect example of why the West Lothian question needs an answer if the Scots vote to stay in the Union.

However, I totally agree that after election day , the London centric Westminster govt. conveniently forgets about Scotland (and most of the rest of the UK for that matter) and that Scotland will be much better off with local and more accountable elected representatives - so I'll be voting YES. How could I not? I can already hear the voices of future generations of Scots cursing me in my grave if we don't.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Is that where you get your information from...Better together... lol
Biggest liars in this referendum, when someone lies to win an argument they have already lost it.

My son was banned from Better Together's facebook page because he kept asking for the sources of their information and figures....of course they couldn't provide any. I am proud of that lad

Interesting read...but not if you are pro Union.
Scottish independence is fast becoming the only option

originally posted by: christina-66
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Is that where you get your information from...Better together... lol
Biggest liars in this referendum, when someone lies to win an argument they have already lost it.

My son was banned from Better Together's facebook page because he kept asking for the sources of their information and figures....of course they couldn't provide any. I am proud of that lad

Yip, banned for the same said reason.... Better together have Nothing, Nada, Zilch.. they focus on being Negative about our campaign instead of being positive about their own campaign...why is that. ?? lol

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Yip, banned for the same said reason.... Better together have Nothing, Nada, Zilch.. they focus on being Negative about our campaign instead of being positive about their own campaign...why is that. ?? lol

Because it is impossible - an oxymoron even - to run a positive NO campaign. They do keep demonstrating how they simply don't comprehend the Scottish psyche. Scots are many things but never fearties - scaremongering by Better Together is the best weapon in the YES campaigns armory......but don't tell them that.

excellent performance by Duncan Hamilton..

Hi folks,
I'm sitting here, desperately trying to keep my cool.
Everyone is welcome to their own opinion of course, but - as usual, a lot of the posts have degenerated into name-calling and innuendo.
Please, PLEASE STOP with the derogatory comments!
By all means bring your own points to the table for discussion, and point out the flaws in the others, but if your own argument is valid there's no need whatsoever to inflame the debate by deriding other individuals viewpoints / standpoints. We can present the evidence without adding personal (or national) insults.
(Rant Over!! LOL)

My own pet hate in the Indy debate, apart from the name-calling and posturing, is the cherry-picking of "facts" to support EITHER side of the debate.
It matters not-a-jot if the drop in oil revenues outweighs the cost of a school or whatever.
It matters not if whisky revenues alone would pay for the entire rail network to be upgraded or whatever.

What matters is the big question - could and should Scotland go it alone?
I have not yet seen one single shred of evidence to suggest that Scotland could not go it alone.

We are a country rich in talent, rich in natural resources, rich in energy, rich in manufacture, rich in agriculture, rich in tourism, rich in culture & history, rich in education, rich in fisheries, rich in technology.....
I'm not aware of any other country in the world that has such a rich, diverse, and broad based economy, NOT reliant on one or two resources or revenue streams, in such a small (and beautiful) package.
So, of course, we could go it alone.

Should we?
Well that depends on whether you believe that we'd be better off as a nation staying in the union or not.
From my perspective, I don't think that we get a very good deal from being in the UK.
I think that the people of Scotland are fed up with decisions being taken by the UK that do not represent our thoughts, our wishes or our vision for where we want to be.
We're fed up being made out to be the poor relation, dependent on London's handouts, whilst at the same time our taxes are funding MAJOR projects south of the border that bring no benefits at all to Scotland. (And which conveniently are never "accounted for" when the official accounts are released, because they are referred to as UK-wide projects (like HS2 rail)).

Another thing that rattles my cage is the repeated regurgitating of "facts" or figures which have already been proved false.

For the record AGAIN... It is NOT about Alex Salmond OR the SNP.

They have already set a date for the Scottish General Election, should a YES vote prevail.
That means that the people of Scotland WILL VOTE for whatever government they want after the decision to go it alone is taken (But before Independence is officially declared).
We can have a Scottish Labour Govt. A Scottish Tory Govt. A Scottish Nationalist Govt. A Scottish Liberal Gov. A Scottish Green Govt. A Scottish Coalition Govt. - WHATEVER WE WANT and VOTE FOR!
Independence does NOT mean an SNP Govt. or a Prime Minister Salmond.

On the subject of an Indy Govt.... and specifically for those who don't like Mr Salmond... I would ask this question;
Who would YOU rather have as YOUR Prime Minister?
Cameron?
Clegg??
Milliband???
Farage????

IMHO Mr Salmond might not be perfect (I prefer Ms Sturgeon myself!) but I wouldn't trust any of the others in that short list to look after my dog, never mind my country.

I'm voting YES, because I believe that we have a better chance of being better represented at governmental level via Independence. (We all have to be governed from somewhere!!)
The difference between being governed by Edinburgh rather than London (as posed previously) is HUGE.
A Scottish Government with FULL powers to raise and distribute Scottish revenues would be doing so in the best interests of Scotland, NOT LONDON. It really is as simple as that.

Sorry for the long post again, I try not to post in anger and by the time I do respond I've noticed another 3 or 4 things that I want to respond to!!
peace,
G

The scots will do as they are told or else

Twitter will slant the debate in the direction they are told and you will see a mass of paid trolls pop up from nowhere.

The people in the east of the Ukraine are being killed for wanting to break away from the nazi'z in Keiv and you only need a little false flag in Scotland to start a battle of words.

Scotish people eat stuff like black pudding and hagis because all the good meat got sent across the border to England to feed the rich and the same happens today with all the oil revenues.

originally posted by: VirusGuard
Scottish people eat stuff like black pudding and hagis because all the good meat got sent across the border to England to feed the rich and the same happens today with all the oil revenues.

Wow, even haggis is now the result of English overlords stealing all the meat...poor victim Scots, I almost want to shed a tear.

Whatever, as a Welsh/Cornish hybrid living in Devon I can only say I am glad the Scots developed haggis because it is absolutely delicious, regardless of the history.
I love Burns night each year at my Scottish friends home, the food is amazing and my friends don't constantly whinge about all the problems of Scotland being Englands fault so the conversation is usually upbeat and a drunken party.
They don't really count though as living in England they have no vote on the matter.
Neither do I so I shall just carry on reading the emotional Braveheart style posts in this thread and continue being amused by the bitterness.

originally posted by: VirusGuard
The scots will do as they are told or else

Twitter will slant the debate in the direction they are told and you will see a mass of paid trolls pop up from nowhere.

The people in the east of the Ukraine are being killed for wanting to break away from the nazi'z in Keiv and you only need a little false flag in Scotland to start a battle of words.

Scotish people eat stuff like black pudding and hagis because all the good meat got sent across the border to England to feed the rich and the same happens today with all the oil revenues.

OK, I'll bite.
The whole point of the VOTE for INDEPENDENCE is that the Scots are FED UP being told what to do.
We will VOTE YES or NO because we want to, not because we are told to.
If you are referring to membership of the EU, then EVERY member of EVERY club has to abide by the rules of that club. Scotland can look at the pros and cons and DECIDE whether to REMAIN members of that particular club or not.
OUR CHOICE.

Or Else?? Or Else what? Or Else we DECIDE not to remain members? Our Choice again.

The situation in the Ukraine is unfortunate, but it has little or no relevance to Scotland or to the Scottish Independence debate. Russia still sees Ukraine as one of it's own dominions and resents / fears the fact that the Ukraine is leaning more towards western Europe. Some Ukrainians would undoubtedly prefer to stick with Russia, some would not. Russia has sent in the troops to "safeguard" Russian Ukrainians interests, and the resulting conflict has spiraled into bloodshed and (almost) civil war.
That situation would never happen in the UK, we are a civilised bunch you know!

Scottish (2"t"'s) people eat what we want to eat.
Black Pudding and Haggis (2 "g"'s) are delicious, and are high in the fats which suit our needs for our harsher northern climate. (The further north you go, generally the colder the climate gets, and the higher the fat content is, in the diet consumed to help counteract that cold.)
But we also eat Steak WHEN WE WANT TO, some of the finest steak in the world by the way (ask any top chef anywhere!) We also have some of the best Lamb, THE best Salmon, Venison, Shellfish - you name it.
We SELL it to the markets who have a demand for it, and rightly so. (It doesn't just get "sent" - we do actually get paid for it if we DECIDE to sell it!)
I must say that I've never heard of having a thriving agricultural export sector, being portrayed as a negative before!

You are correct about Twitter though, and pretty much all media outlets, social or otherwise.

regards,
G

I nearly forgot to address a point that has cropped up a few times, and it is an important one.

Who gets to vote.

In any election, you have to decide who has a right to vote and who does not.
This particular vote is a tricky one to decide, on who the electorate should be.
Why? because there are hundreds of thousands of non-Scots living and working in Scotland, and there are probably Millions of Scots living and working outside of Scotland.

Do you give the vote to Scots who are not living in Scotland and may never do so again?
How do you define "Scottish" anyway? My passport says "British" and "Citizen of the UNITED KINGDOM"
Do you look at Birth certificates to see who was Born in Scotland? or who had Scottish parents or Grandparents?
It would be an administrative nightmare.
Where do you draw the line?
You'll NEVER please everyone.

I think that they've probably got it just about right.
The people that are most directly affected by Independence are the people living in Scotland right now.
They are the ones who will have to face the direct consequences of any YES/NO vote.
An exile Scot, living in....Spain for example, wouldn't be affected nearly as much, and it would be very expensive and complicated to ensure that anyone outside of Scotland claiming to be Scottish was as they claimed.

It's a great pity because I'm sure that there are loads of Scots currently working elsewhere, who would like a vote, but it is what it is, and I don't see how they could have done it any fairer.

G

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: VirusGuard
Scottish people eat stuff like black pudding and hagis because all the good meat got sent across the border to England to feed the rich and the same happens today with all the oil revenues.

Wow, even haggis is now the result of English overlords stealing all the meat...poor victim Scots, I almost want to shed a tear.

Whatever, as a Welsh/Cornish hybrid living in Devon I can only say I am glad the Scots developed haggis because it is absolutely delicious, regardless of the history.
I love Burns night each year at my Scottish friends home, the food is amazing and my friends don't constantly whinge about all the problems of Scotland being Englands fault so the conversation is usually upbeat and a drunken party.
They don't really count though as living in England they have no vote on the matter.
Neither do I so I shall just carry on reading the emotional Braveheart style posts in this thread and continue being amused by the bitterness.

So you have Scottish friends near by who dont whinge, maybe that's because they had to move down south to better their lot.. and as for the Scots who dont get a vote, the English up here do so that kinda balances things out...dont you think.
As for Bitterness, the only bitterness i hear comes from Bitter together.

Maybe if the English had any balls they would take London back, because as far as i can see London has become an Independent nation even from England.

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Indeed - Aberdeen Angus steak is proper yummy! I'm glad us Evil English slaughter all your cattle and consume the best bits, while all awaiting our turn on your Brides, as is our right.....

Honestly though - never had Haggis. My daughter has and say's it's nice, but as a wimpy Englishman (actually Cornish by ancestry, but hey), I can't bring myself to eat it.

As for everything else, well I have decided to not take part in any further "tit-for-tat" posting on this subject. It's been done to death, both sides are entrenched and, at the end of the day, it's down to you bizarre, skirt wearing porridge fanatics to decide.

All joking aside, I hope you guys stick with us - I genuinely think we're all better together. I have no doubt Scotland could make a good go of it, but I think we could all make a better go of it as a United Kingdom. Roll on the 18th September, then this can all be put to bed!

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Maybe if the English had any balls they would take London back, because as far as i can see London has become an Independent nation even from England.

Interesting you should say this, as I read a rather inciteful article on the BBC earlier about restoring the Heptarchy in England:

Linky

It basically discusses restoring the Old Kingdoms of England, including London as a City State, which would mean all the nations (Wales, NI and Scotland included) would all be of roughly equal size and be responsive to local needs, be competitive with each other, promoting growth etc.. I've said similar things in the past with regional assemblies in England and how they should mirror the old Kingdoms..

Anyway, have a read, probably won't ever come to pass as it is actual a sensible idea, but hey ho.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
So you have Scottish friends near by who dont whinge, maybe that's because they had to move down south to better their lot.

Yep, they left Glasgow for South Devon, less smack heads and drunks laying around our streets...apparently.
At least if Scotland votes yes then nobody will be able to continue blaming England for it's higher than average substance abuse and domestic violence. I for one am of course interested to see democracy in action, but either way it is unlikely to make much of a difference to life down here, although there are strong sentiments in Devonport (Plymouth) where many folk would like a piece of the Trident action currently in Faslane, jobs/work/investment/etc - We're as piss poor as rural Scotland down here, and get less out of the Barnett formula than Scots do, but then it's warmer and sunnier so that's probably why we don't whinge so much.

...*leans back against 5 bar farm gate chewing a piece of straw with a scrumpy bottle in hand.