The Myth of Eternal Damnation

a reply to: stormbringer1701

The bible says it is appointed to man to be born of woman and die in the flesh but once.

That verse in Hebrews does not disprove reincarnation... read the whole chapter instead of cherry picking a single line and turning into what you were taught to believe....

that chapter is about whether or not Christ needed to die more then once....

it has absolutely nothing to do with reincarnation

so tired of repeating this to you people

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
I find it fascinating that so many people who believe in a God, heaven and the "good side" of conventional religion have discounted Satan, hell and the "bad side" of conventional religion as a myth. I mean, in the duality of good and evil, there's a figurehead for good and a figurehead for evil. There's the promise of a wonderful afterlife for those who follow the rules and a threat of a miserable afterlife for those who don't.

I'm really curious how one can just chop it in half and say that the "evil" side is a myth, but still believe wholeheartedly in the "good" part.

BH my friend, I personally do not discount "evil" or the "bad side". I just can't accept that an all loving God would eternally punish anyone like that. God is our Father. I have 3 daughters myself and, as any parent can attest, they have certainly raised my anger at times, have done things that disappoint me and grieve my heart. But even if one of them were to completely disown me and literally hate me - there is no way I could condemn any of them to eternal punishment...not even if they were to murder my wife! I don't know if I could forgive them for that, but I would not want them to eternally suffer - and how much more does God love us than any of us love another? I know I'm not "better" than Him - so I can't accept that kind of "evil" from the Supreme!

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

I'm really curious how one can just chop it in half and say that the "evil" side is a myth, but still believe wholeheartedly in the "good" part.

Well, I don't. As mentioned in the OP, I believe in "bad", but not "eternal bad".

An analogy: There is a light-source but no darkness-source. Darkness is merely less light.

originally posted by: Akragon


I always wonder if Christians ever get tired of regurgitating the same old tripe they've been taught...

Jesus drank... mingled with sinners and the "scum" of the earth... he worked on the Sabbath... Called himself the son of God which is blasphemy in Judaism...

Wake up my friend...

Jesus drank. yes biblical. also necessary when much of the available water would kill you. but irrelevant to what you were responding to.

Jesus mingled as you put it with sinners. yes biblical. who needed saving more? but again irrelevant to what you were replying to.

Jesus worked on the Sabbath. yup. made a point of it actually. he also said I am your rest. and sabbath means rest. He also said to not be a respecter of days. also he was on firm ground because the law was actually on his side. he was breaking a tradition that the priests and promulgated as if it had been from God. but again i fail to see how this is related to our last exchange.

Not if he is God; it's not. you do know that the Jews expected a messiah too, right? and the Jewish messiah is a little late too.

originally posted by: tallcool1
OK - I'll try to make this as short as I can for anyone who gives a rip about my opinion.

I give a rip. I learned a lot in reading all those various translations, meanings and origins of hell.

a reply to: Akragon

You know, I'm not sure why many Christians are opposed to the idea of reincarnation. Like I just outlined in my previous post it clears up many contradictions between god's claims about love, forgiveness, and patience and what happens after you die (that something that unconditionally loves you and has infinite patience and forgiveness would eternally torture you after you die once). If Christians would embrace this concept, they would have much better footing in the ongoing debates between them and atheists on if their religion is true or not.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: FlyersFan

I like that explanation, but it seems to only cover those that want to be in there.
Like the OP example of kissing, or laying with a women that is not your wife is considered something that would send you to hell right?
Or if one breaks the 10 commandments, i stole some candy as a kid, wouldn't that qualify me to burn in hell for all eternity?

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Believing in Him and asking Him into your heart and accepting him as your Savior will get you to Heaven. We all sin. All the time. Even the greatest Christian person sins. That will not keep you from Heaven.

originally posted by: tallcool1
BH my friend, I personally do not discount "evil" or the "bad side". I just can't accept that an all loving God would eternally punish anyone like that.

So, is there a hell? And if eternal damnation is a myth, what will happen to the vast majority of people who don't measure up to a standard that would get them into heaven? Do they just die?

I find this all new and curious.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: tallcool1
BH my friend, I personally do not discount "evil" or the "bad side". I just can't accept that an all loving God would eternally punish anyone like that.

So, is there a hell? And if eternal damnation is a myth, what will happen to the vast majority of people who don't measure up to a standard that would get them into heaven? Do they just die?

I find this all new and curious.

the law and all that happened are part of the salvation plan. no one gets into heaven by following the law because no one ever lives up to it except Jesus. God actually deliberately set things up so that he could keep his children alive despite being absolutely perfect and unable to abide imperfection. He obligated himself by the law and set himself up so that one man's sacrifice could put him in the position of a type of double jeopardy if he punished for those sins a second time. he needed his children to have free will or their love was meaningless because they had no choice. and he figured out a way to save them when they inevitably failed to be perfect because of the choices they would make. this set up actually began well before the fall and rebellion of lucifer.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: tallcool1
OK - I'll try to make this as short as I can for anyone who gives a rip about my opinion.

First and foremost - The Bible is really little more than a history book of sorts about the trials and tribulations of the ancient Hebrews. A book that was written after thousands of years of telling historical stories around the campfire and in the tents and so forth. These books were written by human beings who believed that everything was God's doing. If the Hebrews lost a battle - it was because God was angry. If they won the battle or had abundant crops or whatever - God was happy.


I want to add that I am a Christian (although the religious would debate that) and I believe that everyone goes to "heaven" or whatever is next. We are all spiritual beings that manifest ourselves into a brief mortal life (or several lives?) perhaps for the experience or...? I admit openly that I don't know what comes next - but I do believe we continue on after death and there is no way in hell (see what I did there) that an all loving Father-God would punish anyone with an eternity of suffering. Not even Hitler himself. Even if you are an atheist - you will go to the same place we all do!

your first paragraph is wrong. your last is mostly correct minus the reincarnation bit which is not biblically supported.
The bible says it is appointed to man to be born of woman and die in the flesh but once. The bible say that to be absent the flesh is to be in the presence of God in heaven. it say the dead are with God.


the rest of it as far as it pertains to the words translated as hell are spot on. though i would quibble that the grave isn't exactly as pictured. two reasons. Christs descent into the grave wherein he preached to the imates and many accepted him, and his description of the afterlife with lazarus and the rich man. sheol is like a place of waiting. you might think of it as a lobby or something like that. Lazarus, the rich man, and abraham were there. they were not asleep in the grave.

Stormbringer - with all respect, part of what I was saying is that the Bible is actually fallible. It was written by men and then translated by men and then re-translated by men, etc. So while I think there is some truth to the Bible, I also think there are translation errors, nitpicking by the council at Nicaea to form a controlling religion, and probably some old tall tales and exaggerations (such as a world wide flood).

Also, Christ didn't preach to anyone while in the grave. He died, went to the grave for 3 Hebrew calendar days, and rose again to preach some more to the living. I believe he was "asleep" for lack of a better word for those 3 days.

Of course this is my take on these things from a long time of studying - and I mean no disrespect to you or what you believe. And if I am incorrect about these things, I fully believe I will still be forgiven by my all loving and all forgiving Father and The Christ!

Also - I can't remember now where I read this, but I thought that the ancient Hebrews did actually believe in reincarnation... and isn't Christianity basically the "fulfillment" of Judaism?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Are you sure that those experiences are what you thought they were and you weren't being fooled by a being more powerful than you?

All I know is that the one encounter I had with 'a saint' was beyond belief wonderful and holy and spiritual. It was impossible for there to be anything evil in it. It was literally my soul having a meeting with the divine. Can't even begin to explain it.

All I know is that the couple of encounters I had with 'a demon' were beyond belief evil ... and hate filled ... and it was like there was nothing else on the planet except you and all the demons interest was focused on you. It was pure hate. There wasn't a speck of good in it.

Logically, I just fail to see that reincarnation and two places you can go in the afterlife could coexist

That's fine. You could be right. I certainly don't have all the answers. None of us know for sure. All I can do is go by my experiences and this is what my experiences tell me. We'll find out for sure when we are dead.

originally posted by: tallcool1
I just can't accept that an all loving God would eternally punish anyone like that.

That's why what the nun said to me made so much sense. The people in hell WANT to be there. They reject God and dont want to live in His home - heaven - with God, forever. So they are more happy in hell then they'd be in heaven. And they pick going there .. they don't get sent there. They'd want no part of heaven.

a reply to: Skyfloating
Thanks Sky! That reply really did mean something to me as you are one of the people I really respect on this website!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
You know, I'm not sure why many Christians are opposed to the idea of reincarnation.

I'm Christian and I'm not opposed. Probably because I have that past life memory that I told you about. I can't be opposed .. my experience tells me otherwise. (and I do believe that Jesus referred to reincarnation when he was talking about John The Baptiser being Elijah come again)

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: tallcool1
BH my friend, I personally do not discount "evil" or the "bad side". I just can't accept that an all loving God would eternally punish anyone like that.

So, is there a hell? And if eternal damnation is a myth, what will happen to the vast majority of people who don't measure up to a standard that would get them into heaven? Do they just die?

I find this all new and curious.

No, BH - there is no hell! No eternal damnation! The vast majority...? None of us - from the most horrific monster ever to live, to Billy Graham, to the most humble servant to humanity that ever lived - no one could possibly measure up to that standard! Not one person ever!

It is my honest belief that everyone makes it! Satan/Lucifer/the Devil - whatever you call him is just a tempter of humanity. Supposedly the most beautiful creature God ever created (according to...something I don't remember).

One thing I noticed a long time ago and no one has every really answered to my satisfaction - if Lucifer is so completely evil, and God is so pure that the slightest bit of naughty can't be in His presence... why do the two of them chat away like old pals in the book of Job? Is it because they actually are old pals and there is no hell?

originally posted by: tallcool1
if Lucifer is so completely evil, and God is so pure that the slightest bit of naughty can't be in His presence... why do the two of them chat away like old pals in the book of Job?

Because the Book of Job isn't all true. It's just a story. The Book of Job is around to try to explain suffering like the creation myths are around to try to explain creation. All that God/Devil having chats stuff is made up.

originally posted by: tallcool1

Stormbringer - with all respect, part of what I was saying is that the Bible is actually fallible. It was written by men and then translated by men and then re-translated by men, etc. So while I think there is some truth to the Bible, I also think there are translation errors, nitpicking by the council at Nicaea to form a controlling religion, and probably some old tall tales and exaggerations (such as a world wide flood).

Also, Christ didn't preach to anyone while in the grave. He died, went to the grave for 3 Hebrew calendar days, and rose again to preach some more to the living. I believe he was "asleep" for lack of a better word for those 3 days.

Of course this is my take on these things from a long time of studying - and I mean no disrespect to you or what you believe. And if I am incorrect about these things, I fully believe I will still be forgiven by my all loving and all forgiving Father and The Christ!

Also - I can't remember now where I read this, but I thought that the ancient Hebrews did actually believe in reincarnation... and isn't Christianity basically the "fulfillment" of Judaism?

well there are of course translational errors and a few of them obscure some important points of doctrine. and there is some selective editing too. but the manuscripts the editors used to compile the KJV are still available in the British museum. so these translational issues are easy to check and correct. and when it comes to the ot the hebrew is singularly resistant to copyist errors because each letter is a number and therefore each line has a checksum. if the copyist changes something the lines checksum will not match the known checksum and he will not be paid for that copy. plus there are fragments of the ot on silver scrolls and the like and these have been checked for variance with more modern copies. plus Jesus and the apostles seemed to have favored (because they quoted it in preference to other more universally available versions) a greek translation that was available but relatively new at the time and uncommon.

The eternal damnation myth is just that...a myth. Our Creator's love for us is unconditional.
The idea that God would punish someone eternally makes no logical or rational sense whatsoever.


The concept of the angry, jealous God is also a myth.

a reply to: Skyfloating

There are variations of "hell" in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Egyptian, Tibetan and Greek Mythology, among other sources.

But none of these traditions refer to hell as being a place where one is eternally alive and conscious of suffering.

Well, there's Avīci...

Avīci is often translated into English as the "Non-returning" Hell, due to the idea that those beings which have been sent there languish there eternally.

en.wikipedia.org...

And then there are the Hungry Ghosts from Japanese Buddhism; I am wondering what sort of path to redemtion is provided for them? Jesus, I would suppose.

Anyway, interesting subject matter. I hope to get back to the thread later.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Akragon

You know, I'm not sure why many Christians are opposed to the idea of reincarnation. Like I just outlined in my previous post it clears up many contradictions between god's claims about love, forgiveness, and patience and what happens after you die (that something that unconditionally loves you and has infinite patience and forgiveness would eternally torture you after you die once). If Christians would embrace this concept, they would have much better footing in the ongoing debates between them and atheists on if their religion is true or not.

their book supports reincarnation despite what they tell you... they just refuse to see it because they've been taught it doesn't exist, by twisting the meaning of certain passages to support their taught belief system


reincarnation is the only logical way for a merciful and just God to give us the chance to change... IF God has this infinite love for us... He MUST give us more then one chance to live as HE expects...

We are given the body we deserve in our incarnations... This explains pretty much everything... and is also supported by the bible and by Jesus...

IF Christians would actually read their books instead of listening to preachers blow smoke up their situation they would see these things... but they are locked in their little boxes