Suffering

I just wanted to get some thoughts on the subject from some of ats. It is something we all endure and i'm wondering what your thoughts are. Do you find some anger in the thought of suffering in the name of christ. We are told to carry our own cross. Do you find that to be troublesome?

The message carries out through out the new and old testament and it seems like our greatest challenge. It can create a force that can drive someone to carry our more suffering on others in the name of the greater good and can cause many to turn to their fellow man to try and ease the process.

We make most of our decisions in life based on what what impact our daily choices inflict on others in the short term and long term when thought about. To me it seems that our existance does not happen without causing pain to someone or something and that could be the root of our sin. If you disagre with that statement please explain why.

Some seem to embrace suffering and some try to end it through early deaths which some others view as murder and others as release. Do you feel as thought their is a balance and that Jesus would be ok with that balance favoring life? Please explain how you view his teachings on living in the spirit yet still suffering.

No matter what your stance is on suffering weather to fight against it,to helf ease it or just to accept it it is the most common aspect of our existance from birth to death. Can you name a more common and powerful emotion? So do you believe that maybe suffering has spiritual effects that are unknown to us or is it just obsticles for us to overcome through knowledge?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
I just wanted to get some thoughts on the subject from some of ats. It is something we all endure and i'm wondering what your thoughts are. Do you find some anger in the thought of suffering in the name of christ. We are told to carry our own cross. Do you find that to be troublesome?

The message carries out through out the new and old testament and it seems like our greatest challenge. It can create a force that can drive someone to carry our more suffering on others in the name of the greater good and can cause many to turn to their fellow man to try and ease the process.

We make most of our decisions in life based on what what impact our daily choices inflict on others in the short term and long term when thought about. To me it seems that our existance does not happen without causing pain to someone or something and that could be the root of our sin. If you disagre with that statement please explain why.

Some seem to embrace suffering and some try to end it through early deaths which some others view as murder and others as release. Do you feel as thought their is a balance and that Jesus would be ok with that balance favoring life? Please explain how you view his teachings on living in the spirit yet still suffering.

No matter what your stance is on suffering weather to fight against it,to helf ease it or just to accept it it is the most common aspect of our existance from birth to death. Can you name a more common and powerful emotion? So do you believe that maybe suffering has spiritual effects that are unknown to us or is it just obsticles for us to overcome through knowledge?

Is denying the Multiple Sclerosis going to heal me of it? I'm not suffering from it, even though others might. Suffering is different for different people. I don't know what you feel that is worthy of being called suffering, but I think seeing the worst suffering is little children who are starving. So to me, suffering is not what you go through to ease, it's what you see in others that you want to help.

I think your whole OP sounds Buddhist. What is suffering, how to deal with suffering and what suffering does to you, those are all things we can think about for ourselves, but perhaps it is better to see it in others, that way we can help. Carrying the cross doesn't remove suffering, but when we carry it, we can appreciate that what we think makes us suffer is really nothing compared to others.

Why do you think your existence causes pain to someone else? Perhaps your existence is their help.

Great reply. I started to put a disclaimer in the op that i do not suffer much either even though some would say i am. I am healty so it is not a cry or plea from me but just me wanting to gain perspective such as you shared in your post. As for me believing that our existance is complete suffering comes from mainly our food habits as a whole. Something has to die in order for us to recieve sustinance at our current level. I do have dreams and it is to overcome this process without removing the flesh from our mouths.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Great reply. I started to put a disclaimer in the op that i do not suffer much either even though some would say i am. I am healty so it is not a cry or plea from me but just me wanting to gain perspective such as you shared in your post. As for me believing that our existance is complete suffering comes from mainly our food habits as a whole. Something has to die in order for us to recieve sustinance at our current level. I do have dreams and it is to overcome this process without removing the flesh from our mouths.

I would posit that animals that are quickly killed don't suffer, only those who are systematically torn limb from limb or left slowly to die, that's real suffering.

But as there really are a limited number of animals we actually eat, considering the number of animal species out there, then we aren't really bringing widescale suffering on the animal kingdom.

OK, so in some countries they eat meats different than that of other parts of the world, but I would not count it as suffering for rats to have their heads chopped off. Some people do eat them. But we have been conditioned to only eat certain animals in the West. And those animals maybe live in pens all their lives until they are slaughtered and that could be suffering for them.

But even vegetables have to die for us to eat them. That isn't perceived as causing suffering, but in essence it is the same thing, a living thing dies to feed us. Why are we picking one over the other when it comes to what we call cruel?

Chopping the tusk off an elephant for the sheer greed of ivory poaching wealth, and the elephant dies slowly and painfully, that's wrong to do. But killing a chicken to fry it up, which is done very quickly, that is not wrong. Maybe people don't want to eat chicken because of that, but then again, if one is starving they tend to eat anything, even chicken. Or they will eat rats like in India or they eat cats like in Australia.

But rats bring diseases and eat food sources from humans. Cats kill smaller game. Maybe there are two circular and intersecting phenomenon happening. The cycle of life, that is how nature is. The small is eaten by the larger, no big surprise, so we balance that by determining what is appropriate to eat, rats would eat our food if we let them, rats would give us disease if we let them.

Multi-faceted question about feeding ourselves and whether or not we are bringing the animal kingdom to suffering.

a reply to: WarminIndy
Your posit leaves out the question of animal spirits and proper death rituals. Perhaps simply giving thanks for the life of a creature and a few minutes in prayer can help seperate and give direction for the spirit to be released from the flesh. How would you feel if you were an animal in flesh and spirit then along comes death and somehow you are still attached to your flesh by forces we do not yet understand again and you were hovering above a deep fat fryer or dinner table as your flesh is being consumed. When all you needed was a little thanks and blessing from your killer.

One simple fact remains and that is that every bite i take is of death and then i wonder why i myself am dieing. Jesus gave us some perspective on this but no finishing thoughts or alternatives have been provided that i have found. The closest i feel i have came is in the words that he is the first born over all creation and we should eat and drink him but that is easily dismissed by most as speculation on my part. How about the living waters flowing from his belly? There is only one liquid that generally comes forth from the belly. Either we are not taking these sayings literal enough or there is a hidden meaning for us in them. Either way it takes speculation on our part.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: WarminIndy
Your posit leaves out the question of animal spirits and proper death rituals. Perhaps simply giving thanks for the life of a creature and a few minutes in prayer can help seperate and give direction for the spirit to be released from the flesh. How would you feel if you were an animal in flesh and spirit then along comes death and somehow you are still attached to your flesh by forces we do not yet understand again and you were hovering above a deep fat fryer or dinner table as your flesh is being consumed. When all you needed was a little thanks and blessing from your killer.

One simple fact remains and that is that every bite i take is of death and then i wonder why i myself am dieing. Jesus gave us some perspective on this but no finishing thoughts or alternatives have been provided that i have found. The closest i feel i have came is in the words that he is the first born over all creation and we should eat and drink him but that is easily dismissed by most as speculation on my part. How about the living waters flowing from his belly? There is only one liquid that generally comes forth from the belly. Either we are not taking these sayings literal enough or there is a hidden meaning for us in them. Either way it takes speculation on our part.

Actually, the verse is "out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water". That was in reference to the Holy Spirit, not actual water. That is an idiom. Kind of like saying "He gave up the ghost", which simply means someone died.

I think that you might be referring to The Great Spirit of Native American religions. And wouldn't the kosher blessings of the rabbi be sufficient for Jews? I would think so.

But with everything give thanks, that's what I was taught.

As a Catholic, I am supposed to find joy in suffering and give it up as a prayer for someone else. As an unexpected widower at age 47, I have certainly suffered, but I have been able to find good that has come from my suffering, so I am grateful for it.

That sounds a little masochistic, but it's more a matter of making the most of a bad situation.

I think that's a good question, especially for Christianity.

During my Christian fundamentalist phase it was something that I felt was never sufficiently addressed, and according to the popular US-prosperity gospel of the church I attended, suffering was something a person brought on themselves.
They either committed some sin and invoked the wrath of God (or maybe even their grandparents committed some "occult" sin), or they allowed Satan and his demons a "legal right" to torment them.
Perhaps, for example, they got cancer or lost their job because they read the astrology blurp in the newspaper.
That made me totally paranoid, and chasing demons all day was a socially dead view of life, which in hindsight had less to do with the Bible than thumb-sucking propagandists like Jack Chick or Rebecca Brown.

I found that despicable eventually, especially when seeing babies dying of AIDS within the first two years of their lives without medication, and then listening to how AIDS was God's will, almost like a gleeful Christian celebration of the extreme suffering of others.

No wonder then that I found more solace and explanations in Eastern philosophy, although now as an agnostic that also seems somewhat deluded, and even somewhat fatalistic.

Many older forms of Christianity reach back before modern medicine became effective for many major epidemics in the 19th century, and I find they may be more interesting in providing theological responses to suffering.
Yet, ultimately they still found and accepted the world as a "vale of tears", since the fall of our "first parents".
Thank heavens some scientists actually persisted in studying the real world.

Real relief from suffering should come in the afterlife.
Although that makes me wonder, if Christians really believe that Colton Burpo went to heaven where Jesus rides a rainbow-colored horse, then they should refuse medications and use every possible legal means to invite death and go to that wonderful place.
If people really want to go to heaven, then they should really be prepared to die.
And I really hope little Colton wasn't lying, because if his religion is true, little liars will burn in hell.

OK, some older forms of Christianity have embraced suffering, and even martyrdom (in the sense of suffering for the Christian religion, rather than just dealing with common suffering like disease or old age).
As far as I've heard, Mother Teresa's hospital in India was basically a place to pray and die, with few physical comforts.

Of course the danger here is that suffering becomes virtually masochistic, and both endurance and humbleness become competitive and self-aggrandizing (if not even a somewhat "perverted" spectacle).
I'm not sure, but I think Jesus was against this type of public display of religiosity (which is nowadays splashed all over social media).
Endure in silence if you believe, because God will see it - assuming people actually believe in Him.
At least that's the message I get.

But we have to divide between personal suffering and real religious discrimination, as we find against Christian minorities in some countries.
And here I'm talking about churches being shot at, terrorism against Christians and Christians persecuted for trumped up charges, like blasphemy and apostasy.

I cannot say what the response should be.
However, I do find it problematic when Christians in countries where their rights are currently secure go out of their way to insult other people under the guise of speaking a repetitive "truth" in the name of "love" (according to their scriptural interpretation), yet when people want to "love" them back with similar insults they get all upset and claim they are made to suffer.
That's nonsense, and just a political tool.

My best advice would be to paraphrase Ecclesiastes, and say "Eat, drink and be merry" for as long as possible, because you never know when it's your turn...

So in many ways suffering begets suffering and to me it lends creadence to my view that suffering can lead to dna growth. This growth will come not in the current vessel but usually in the reason why if we are spirits we would choose to be here in the first place. All for naught. I really have searched and say that there is reason to our struggles and timing to our deaths that points to a greater plan.

a reply to: deadeyedick
There's many angles to approach the topic, but I wouldn't be entirely cynical about the notion that suffering can lead to wider empathy and both personal (and perhaps) spiritual growth.

Even if we look at a lot of social movements today, many were founded by people who were suddenly confronted with certain kinds of suffering and they decided to help others with similar afflictions.
Not all these people may be Christians, but they can and have been instrumental in several instances.

So perhaps, we can believe that out of everything bad something good can arise.
Maybe that's not a good message for the "me" generation, because that good might only come when we are no longer here, and hence we're not the personal star of the drama.
But in the big picture, it's a nice way of looking at it.

a reply to: halfoldman

About AIDS, it is preventable and the fact that babies are suffering and dying from it just is not right that someone brought not only the disease on themselves, but through their own selfish actions brought it onto someone innocent. There has to be just punishment for that.

Also, there should be just punishment for every type of suffering inflicted upon the innocent, who did nothing to bring it upon themselves. Babies starving to death, that's a horrible suffering, and every adult who took food away from them, there should be just punishment.

But alas, it seems to me that the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. I am one of those Christians, but do I believe sin caused MS? No, that I do not believe that. But I smoke, so getting lung cancer, I would bring that upon myself if I don't quit. Religious and non-religious alike seem to have the same idea, it's always someone else who causes the problems.

A church that does not teach about personal responsibility or accountability has missed the message. We can either bring suffering or end suffering. But as Adjensen said, he suffered after becoming a widower at a younger age. That is my age now. But Adjensen did nothing to cause the suffering, but Adjensen knows the suffering isn't forever, and that's the Christian message, that we will suffer in this life but there is comfort and hope in knowing that it is not forever.

But people who give AIDS to children, they should suffer for that, forever. That's my opinion.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Do you find some anger in the thought of suffering in the name of Christ. We are told to carry our own cross. Do you find that to be troublesome?

It isn't our "own" cross, it is just carry your cross, meaning to accept suffering if that is what you are faced with as a result of believing in Jesus, such as if culturally, you are going to be discriminated against, like if you live in a place where there was a state-sponsored religion that is not tolerant of Christianity.

Jesus was not talking about suffering as if that was something good in itself.
And he definitely was not talking about just letting other people suffer unnecessarily because people should just deal with it on their own.

In my experience, suffering--and how to deal with/escape it--can be best understood from a Buddhist (not Christian) perspective, as another member noted above. Hopefully your religion allows you to investigate Buddhism...

Dukkha

a reply to: deadeyedick

. . . if we are spirits we would choose to be here in the first place.

We chose, to be somewhere, and it may be random where we turn up, existing as human beings.
We don't choose to be specifically in a bad place, that just happens because bad places exist.

Our duty as Christians is to eliminate the existence of bad places, not to think they are good places to "learn".
That is just horrible (to think that), and is not Christ-like, and is the sign of a false and degenerate religion.
Anyone who does fit that description, I would advise to pray to God that you become converted by belief in His son, Jesus.

Well you have to believe that GOD is in control of all things first. Then you can postulate as to the meaning of suffering and if it has a positive effect on us at some unknown point of our being. Only then can you see that the bad was maybe created for us to overcome and it is not just an unforseen byproduct of foul calucations on the creators part. To me there is no dought that he knew we would find the wrong roads from time to time and choose to use that to our advantage.

a reply to: WarminIndy
On AIDS I'm talking about mother-to-child transmission, and babies who are born HIV-positive.
Very often not even the mothers knew they were HIV-positive.

Nowadays medication has reduced mother-to-child transmission to very low numbers, although it took a long time to access that medication, firstly because of big pharma profiteering, and then we had an AIDS denialist President.

That medication can however become ineffective as the virus evolves (just like some antibiotics and TB medication), and I take my hat off to many courageous people who are currently going off their treatments and offering themselves as guinea pigs to save the lives of others.

Both religion and public health can reduce HIV, although they have often been at odds.
Even some South African clergy have been critical of the Vatican's message on condoms, for example.
If people get mixed messages they usually ignore both.
I see there's still a lot of ignorance and lack of understanding, and people like to think it only happens to "bad" or "other" people, but it happens to all kinds of people every day.
One main religious behavior that should be stopped is all these mega-church con-men who claim they can pray the HIV away without a shred of evidence.
That's a very irresponsible way of dealing with an infectious virus.

a reply to: deadeyedick

I have'nt suffered too many physical illnesses, but the few acute cases I have had have been pretty severe at times. Most of my suffering has either come from poor decision making or attacks from others. In either case, the key is your perspective. If you maintain a sinfull/arrogant attitude, your suffering will be a burden. If you confess your sin, and focus on Christ, your suffering will become a blessing.

Just remind yourself, that Jesus suffered more than any man can possibly bare, and that God's grace is sufficient.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Well you have to believe that GOD is in control of all things first.

No, you don't.
And what would make you think that?
Jesus, according to Matthew and Luke, said that stumbling blocks are unavoidable (or inevitable, as the translation puts it).
That means that God doesn't put them there, they just happen.
Why they are there exactly, is something that can be speculated on, but it wouldn't be God because the next line says, 'woe to those who put stumbling blocks before people', so God is not going to kill Himself, which He would have to, if He put them there Himself.

. . . bad was maybe created for us to overcome and it is not just an unforeseen byproduct of foul calculations on the creators part.

It would be a "foul calculation" by God, if He actually created an evil universe on purpose.
God has to work with a universe as it exists, and if the universe is flawed, then it is just that way and we can't really expect it to be any other way.
Nature has a certain structure to it, and has a way that it works, that can't be changed and still have a universe.

So, I repeat, I recommend that people who think that God is evil, should look to Jesus and to pray that God helps them to believe in him.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Amen to that about the baby with AIDS. If you hadn't pointed that out, I would have.

So much of the suffering in this world is either directly or indirectly the result of someone's action or inaction somewhere along the line. I call it human suffering, and it's what we're supposed to do our best to avoid causing through our actions. It's why you try to live a Christlike life and put the needs of others before your own. It's when you start becoming selfish and greedy and out for yourself that you start inflicting harm on others or yourself whether you mean to or not.

As for acts of nature, those are indiscriminate and rain on everyone.

Like your MS, I have migraines and went through a time when I was only pain free one day in three. That was no one's fault except maybe heredity to some degree. And it wouldn't have been doing myself or anyone else any favors to blame anyone or anything for my situation. Instead, I just took (and still do take) it as something that is a part of me and my life to be lived with and adapted to. As the saying says, part of my cross to bear.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I think God created a universe that simply is, neither good nor bad, and it operates by the rules as He set them down. He could violate those rules, and when He does, we call it a miracle. Christ's resurrection was on such occurrence, but if God violated His own rules all the time, it would be like what happens to a child whose parents never establish and stick to rules and routines.

As such the universe does what it must, and we sometimes get in the way and suffer for it.