An Anasazi Abduction Story? Additional Petroglyphs Point to A Very Strange Happening

a reply to: Rosinitiate

My ex, who was Navajo, actually shared the same theory as you coupled with it being "ufo country" out there. He said that he never believed that the Cliff Dwellings of the Anasazi were ever due to some ground based invader because they went from living atop mesas to tucking themselves into niches in canyons that couldn't be seen from overhead. I don't know if I agree with him or not. However, I've been to Mesa Verde and Chaco Canyon and was freaked out by the heights of such living. I could not even remotely imagine what it would've been likely to raise a toddler there with such huge drop offs so close to what would've been home. It's a definite oddity. I'll give it that. Whatever drove them into the cliffs for that 100 or so years must've been pretty scary.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: Rosinitiate

My ex, who was Navajo, actually shared the same theory as you coupled with it being "ufo country" out there. He said that he never believed that the Cliff Dwellings of the Anasazi were ever due to some ground based invader because they went from living atop mesas to tucking themselves into niches in canyons that couldn't be seen from overhead. I don't know if I agree with him or not. However, I've been to Mesa Verde and Chaco Canyon and was freaked out by the heights of such living. I could not even remotely imagine what it would've been likely to raise a toddler there with such huge drop offs so close to what would've been home. It's a definite oddity. I'll give it that. Whatever drove them into the cliffs for that 100 or so years must've been pretty scary.

Awfully curious.....

While traveling I spoke to a handful of people in the area about theories and relationships from the various tribes. I spoke to a member of the Ute Tribe and the Pueblos. Interestingly, they both seemed to have a level of disdain for the Navajo. Further, I found it odd that Anasazi in Navajo means "land of our enemies", further still, the Hopi, Aztec and Pueblos don't like to be called Anasazi.

Almost as if there is some longstanding grudge between the Navajo and the various other tribes. I'd be curious as to what the Navajo thinks about these other tribes and if it has anything to do with the break up of such a sophisticated society.

Also want to add that I really like the idea of them havig a need to hide from something above. It certainly adds another angle to the argument. Thanks for sharing.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Bradshaw Foundation

This website has archived petroglyphs around the world including that area. Perhaps they have clearer photographs in their archives to the spaceship component.

Nice thread S&F's!

what a great thread. and you're using my favorite avatar that you have, too.

i can't say much regarding you interpretation of the images. You are right in it being very odd, and a left/right reading could be possible.

RE: where the Anasazi went....the Aztecs had stories that they came from the indians of that region. Who knows. But Ancient America was a place where folks wandered hither and yon constantly, running from one event or another. If I recall, there is a theory that the people of this area left due to meteor impact or volcanic eruption. And that they settled into central Mexico.

originally posted by: Granite
a reply to: Rosinitiate

Bradshaw Foundation

This website has archived petroglyphs around the world including that area. Perhaps they have clearer photographs in their archives to the spaceship component.

Nice thread S&F's!

Thanks for the info. I actually didn't see any petroglyphs from Chaco Canyon on the site but I did see links to sites in California, Arizona, Nevada, etc. I'll continue to look through it and I do see direct links through the Pueblo, Hopi and Navajo rock art. I was previously unaware of his work although for some reason recognize the name. So thanks.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
what a great thread. and you're using my favorite avatar that you have, too.

RE: where the Anasazi went....the Aztecs had stories that they came from the indians of that region. Who knows. But Ancient America was a place where folks wandered hither and yon constantly, running from one event or another. If I recall, there is a theory that the people of this area left due to meteor impact or volcanic eruption. And that they settled into central Mexico.

Thanks BFFT!

Well the meteor story would give credence to WhiteAlice's comment about them moving north and digging into the canyon walls for protection from above. Tie that in with the Kachina stories and destructive flying birds and we may well be onto something.

a reply to: Rosinitiate
Rosinitiate - Thanks for sharing your experience, photos & insights with us.
Have you been to the Chimney Rock site in southern Colorado? (37°11'30.14"N 107°18'23.07"W)
It seems that the two (and others) were connected...with Chaco' being the hub.
Quite a trek, for the era, if you ask me.

originally posted by: WanDash
a reply to: Rosinitiate
Rosinitiate - Thanks for sharing your experience, photos & insights with us.
Have you been to the Chimney Rock site in southern Colorado? (37°11'30.14"N 107°18'23.07"W)
It seems that the two (and others) were connected...with Chaco' being the hub.
Quite a trek, for the era, if you ask me.

Chimney Rock was the first site I drove to after flying in to Albuquerque skipping Chaco to give it the attention it needs. From there up to Denver to spend time with old friends and after that Pueblo, Mesa Verde and Chaco. Sadly it was raining when I got to Chimney so skipped it to make up some time. I also wanted to hit Arizona to see the Hopi and didn't have time to stop at Aztec site due to time constraints even though I drove right through the area.

I'll eventually make it there because I agree the site is directly related.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Pity you didn't go up into "the Valley" you were so close.

High strangeness abounds with real ufo's, black ops, time distortions and cattle mutilations. As well as some very
strange religious connections and paranormal events. My whole view of the cosmos was changed by my time spent in "the valley"..... nothing is as it seems.

www.huffingtonpost.com...
www.metroactive.com...

Glad you enjoyed your time in "the Land of Enchantment" !

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: Rosinitiate

Pity you didn't go up into "the Valley" you were so close.

High strangeness abounds with real ufo's, black ops, time distortions and cattle mutilations. As well as some very
strange religious connections and paranormal events. My whole view of the cosmos was changed by my time spent in "the valley"..... nothing is as it seems.

www.huffingtonpost.com...
www.metroactive.com...

Glad you enjoyed your time in "the Land of Enchantment" !

Oh I saw a few things and got a couple on camera. I kept my eye up at all times and although I haven't correlated my sighting with the area you present, I could tell you it was about 20 minutes outside Salida, Co. I got quite the shot.

originally posted by: Rosinitiate...Chimney Rock was the first site I drove to after flying in to Albuquerque skipping Chaco to give it the attention it needs. From there up to Denver to spend time with old friends and after that Pueblo, Mesa Verde and Chaco. Sadly it was raining when I got to Chimney so skipped it to make up some time. I also wanted to hit Arizona to see the Hopi and didn't have time to stop at Aztec site due to time constraints even though I drove right through the area.

I'll eventually make it there because I agree the site is directly related.

Thanks - interesting that you're interested in something that interests me.
I have looked a bit into the Chaco Canyon culture...and, without going there, am impressed by the story (at least).
My thoughts automatically migrated to the question - "Where did this pre-1000 A.D. Native American culture acquire the architectural, mining & transporting knowledge, skills and manpower...to (1st) conceive the work, and (2nd) make it happen... ?"
Do you have any thoughts on this?

a reply to: Rosinitiate
Pretty close. You have no idea though what you unleashed by asking me these questions. I so rarely get to access my mental Diné history archive...lol

Anasazi, to the Navajo, means "ancient enemies" and yes, it is a slight. Technically, Navajo is a slight as well. They prefer being called the Diné but everybody knows them as the Navajo so they go with it. The Navajo are kind of like that.

I don't think that there has been any serious connection between the disappearance/dispersal of the Ancestral Puebloan civilization and the arrival of the Diné (Navajo) but they are, interestingly enough, close in timing. The Dine call their ancestral lands, Dinehtah and it's bound by the four sacred mountains in their lore. The interesting thing about this is that you can find potsherds (which, btw, are illegal to collect or touch) in various areas around Dinehtah. Many of the potsherds that I spotted on the ground in one of these areas were Basketmaker III style and even a few Leupp Black-on-White (very distinctive) pottery pieces, which would place the date of Pueblo occupation for this area as being all the way up to around 1200-1250 ad. What I never saw was any polychrome pottery, which would be Pueblo IV. That's interesting because that would be no potsherds from a post-collapse time period. Whatever Pueblo living there had abandoned the area at that point in what is now Dinehtah.

So Dinehtah actually has Ancestral Puebloan lands within it. My ex once told me that the Diné were called "skull crushers" in the Hopi language but I don't know if that's true. I personally think the "skull crushers" probably played a role in the collapse but there is apparently nothing in the archaeological record that proves that directly. However, one of the things that they found at one AP archaeological site was a desecrated kiva that contained human feces and some signs of cannibalism. There is one aspect of Diné culture that could potentially do such a thing but it's taboo to discuss. That kiva desecration is pretty important though as I can't imagine any Puebloan doing that but an outsider? You bet.

According to the Diné lore, when they encountered the Pueblo people, they found them growing plenty of corn so they began raiding the Pueblo to get the corn. Eventually the Pueblo people got sick of it and decided that they would be better off teaching the Diné to grow corn themselves, including the rites associated with it. That's why there is some Puebloan belief system within the Diné belief system. In Chaco Canyon, there used to be an orchard of peach trees growing there that were cultivated by the Zuni, iirc. The Diné seized the peach orchard in Chaco Canyon from the Zuni. This orchard was eventually burned during the Scorched Earth policy to undo the Diné in the war against the US. The Diné were a strong hunter-gatherer culture that was pretty darn tough, raiding a bunch of farmers. Really, the Diné were probably similar to the Vikings in Europe in that regard. That could explain a whole lot of the resentment. That said, some of the clans within the Diné are offshoots of the surrounding tribes such as the Nóóda’i Dine’é (The Ute Diné) and Tsin Jikini (Cliff Dweller-aha moment there!). If I recall correctly, a new clan is frequently formed off the insertion of a new mother or matriarch, ie. Naakai Diné (Spanish People) emanates from a Spanish woman brought into the tribe as it is a matriarchal tribe.

There are actually some serious grudges between the Diné and the surrounding tribes. It is very significant. As much as I wanted to visit some of the Hopi, my ex would not allow it because they had exchanged gunfire not that long ago over a land dispute at Black Mesa. He actually was nervous a Diné driving through both Hopi and Ute territory, lol.

That should cover a whole lot that I know about the relationships between the Diné and their neighbors. Some things I cannot talk about because they are taboo but I would say that the resentments between the tribes are most likely warranted, albeit mostly in the past. It's getting better. One of my Diné family members was dating a Hopi girl a while back and his mother said, "well at least she's not a bilagaana". Then she apologized to me because I am a bilagaana. So it's not the end of the world if a Hopi and a Diné date anymore but it might be if a Diné and a bilagaana do. lol



Mesa Verde seemed like it would've been extremely defensible for a normal Pueblo site so I have to admit, it's strange for them to have abandoned the tops to sink into the canyons. It seems so unlikely that any would've spotted the Pueblos from the ground with their topside pueblos. Who knows though.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

Corn, as i recall it, is another linking factor between the Anasazi/Pueblo tribes and the Aztecs. As I understand it according to the theory, it could also be a linking factor to the Cahokia peoples (meaning the mound builders became the Aztecs by way of the Anasazi).

Who knows. Agricultural similarities are one thing. I guess the canal building aspects are another similiarity between the 3, now that I think of it.

The Navajo resulted from a prior split of a larger group of people. I believe the same can be said of the Apache. I am fuzzy on any details relating to any of the indian tribes. But it is a fascinating look. I think that the groupings of tribes represents a different wave of peoples arriving in many cases. I believe the algonquin's have some oral history/legends that suggest that they are a more recent arrival on the scene.

ETA: i may have botched the above paragraph up in every possible way.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
...Corn, as i recall it...

Oh please, bigfatfurry' - you remember 'corn'. It goes in all kinds of dishes, like - tacos and tortillas and taco-flavored tortillas and tortilla-flavored tacos...

...I guess the canal building aspects are another similiarity between the 3, now that I think of it.

This interests me!... Can you point to any sources...or, share what you know of this "canal building...similarity"...?
Much appreciated, if &/or when you have the time & inclination.
Thanks!

originally posted by: WanDash

originally posted by: Rosinitiate...Chimney Rock was the first site I drove to after flying in to Albuquerque skipping Chaco to give it the attention it needs. From there up to Denver to spend time with old friends and after that Pueblo, Mesa Verde and Chaco. Sadly it was raining when I got to Chimney so skipped it to make up some time. I also wanted to hit Arizona to see the Hopi and didn't have time to stop at Aztec site due to time constraints even though I drove right through the area.

I'll eventually make it there because I agree the site is directly related.

Thanks - interesting that you're interested in something that interests me.
I have looked a bit into the Chaco Canyon culture...and, without going there, am impressed by the story (at least).
My thoughts automatically migrated to the question - "Where did this pre-1000 A.D. Native American culture acquire the architectural, mining & transporting knowledge, skills and manpower...to (1st) conceive the work, and (2nd) make it happen... ?"
Do you have any thoughts on this?

You know, when visiting various sites and calculating the disappearances of the Maya and the emergence of the Anasazi i can't help but think there's a connection. I noticed a petroglyph eerily similar to the Mayan long count calendar, couple that with some direct similarities with ancient Hawaiian petroglyphs and now my head begins to spin. Talking with locals seems to indicate that they feel they migrated south from Canada but I personally don't see it.

After reading WhiteAlice's last post, it seems at least to me perhaps the Hopi, Pueblos, Ute, etc originate from a similar lineage but the Navajo appear something else entirely. I really need to get down south and learn more about the Maya, Incas and Aztecs as I think there is a direct connection.

I know Maya has some pretty gnarly rituals so I wonder if the Navajo sprang from them. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

a reply to: WhiteAlice

Now that was a lot of insight into the different tribes and no doubt spot on. I respect that you don't want to incite anyone by sharing taboos that may offend, in fact I was apprehensive to suggest the apparent feud between the various tribes and the Navajo for fear of igniting something on here I don't fully understand. If nothing else, its good to see my observations are well founded but I am very curious to learn more.

Many times getting to the truth can only be understood by reading between the lines in regards to existing age old beliefs and taboos. I would be interested in engaging via U2U if you feel such topics are better left out of public dissemination, and I too will leave it out. If of course you so wished.

I must say I am floored by the statement of desecration and there must be A LOT more to that story. At any rate, thanks for sharing.

originally posted by: WanDash

originally posted by: Rosinitiate...Chimney Rock was the first site I drove to after flying in to Albuquerque skipping Chaco to give it the attention it needs. From there up to Denver to spend time with old friends and after that Pueblo, Mesa Verde and Chaco. Sadly it was raining when I got to Chimney so skipped it to make up some time. I also wanted to hit Arizona to see the Hopi and didn't have time to stop at Aztec site due to time constraints even though I drove right through the area.

I'll eventually make it there because I agree the site is directly related.

My thoughts automatically migrated to the question - "Where did this pre-1000 A.D. Native American culture acquire the architectural, mining & transporting knowledge, skills and manpower...to (1st) conceive the work, and (2nd) make it happen... ?"
Do you have any thoughts on this?

Oh I also wanted to add that when I first arrived at Pueblo Bonito I was floored by the level of sophistication, rivaled only by the castles of England and Scotland. Whats more, is it appears Pueblo Bonito was constructed before any castle sprung up in Scotland..........savages my ass!

Take a look at these pictures:



This outer wall is 5 stories tall! A bunch of basket weavers are responsible for this? *scratches head* And we are to believe they just walked away...if they did it was in duress.



As you can see, these guys were very sophisticated and this is but a couple in thousands of examples of high level masonry and archeoastronomy. It should be noted the Pueblo Bonito is built as a half circle facing true north and south. You can also see moon calendars in a few sites at Chaco. Further still, and what amazed me most with these constructions are how they built these rooms to allow sunlight to come in through the windows of the outer room which shines through a window in the inner room to shines through and lights up a room three levels deep. Now that is some very technical and beautiful use of natural lighting!!

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The Hohokam were the canal builders in Arizona. There is a Hohokam site there that actually has a ball court like the Mayans. Kind of cool. They were the ancestors of the Akimei O'odham (we call them the Pima--we apparently rarely call a tribe by their actual name) and Tohono O'odham peoples. The canals that are currently in Phoenix, Arizona are actually based off of the Hohokam canal system that was there previously so Phoenicians can thank the Native Americans for their water ingenuity there. The O'odham language is actually considered a Uto-Aztecan language. That language grouping would include the Ute and the Hopi.

The associations between the Aztec and the tribes further North, including even the Diné, have long been felt between the groups. In fact, it was always a treat when Aztec dancers came North to participate in the Navajo Nation Parade as they would be covered in glittering gold from head to toe. Quite a switch from the softer and frequently neutral tones of the other dancers' dress. The Diné, when the Aztec would dance through, would always get terribly excited to see them and be whooping gleefully. They really are awesome to behold though I think I remember more of just all the gold covering them and glittering in the sun than their actual dance, sad to say, lol.

The Diné and the Apache consider themselves family--cousins to be exact. They are related tribes. Both of them belong to the Na-Dene language group, which is most densely found on the West coast of Canada. For the Diné, they call the Canadian tribes the Northern Diné. The story goes that, at one point after they arrived in the Glittering World, the Diné were split and lost some of their people. When they finally arrived in Dinehtah, they sent out scouts to try to find their lost friends. After a long time, they found them further up North. When the scout pleaded with them to return home with him, the Northern Diné refused. The Northern Diné were cursed and the story goes that if the Northern and Southern Diné should ever meet, the world will end. The two groups have been separated ever since though there is a story about how a Northern Diné met a Southern Diné at a World Fair long ago. Thankfully, the world didn't end from that meeting.

Native American languages can basically be broken down into three major language groups based on similarities--Amerind (contains the aforementioned Uto-Aztecan), Na-Dene, and Eskaleut (ie Inuit). This little fact actually suggested that the tribes arrived in the Americas in three separate waves. However, genetically, all of these tribes actually share the same lineages and that's sent the migration wave theory into a bit of a flummox. How can you have multiple waves of migration if they are all related?

I don't know if they have a way to figure out when specific mtDNA was inserted into a tribe or not or if they have done that already, but the one thing that I think of is Kokopelli, the flute player. Kokopelli is a deity based on an Aztec traveling salesman of a sort and associated with fertility. Whenever Kokopelli came to town, pregnancies soon followed, lol. If anything, the myth of Kokopelli suggests that perhaps the admixture of genetic material may have been related to trade between the tribes. The range for Kokopelli is considered to be just a SW deity but rock art of Kokopelli has actually been found in Grotto Canyon in Alberta, Canada. That's way, way, way North.

www.jstor.org...

a reply to: Rosinitiate

I leave it to the Diné to decide whether or not they want to discuss some topics publicly or not. Some don't mind but others can become pretty hostile when it comes to certain taboo subjects. I tread lightly on those subjects. The human coprolite was found in a kiva in Colorado. It's a very, very touchy subject as it is also associated with the suggestion of cannibalism, which is a highly repugnant practice to the the tribes of the SW. Here's a transcript of a PBS episode on the subject:

www.pbs.org...

I agree that it is pretty flooring as it really is such a condemned practice by the tribes. Really makes one wonder what the devil was going on when there is evidence of such things happening. The cannibalism evidence is actually found in a larger range than you'd expect. Many of the great houses had evidence of violence and butchering marks on human bones.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The Hohokam were the canal builders in Arizona. There is a Hohokam site there that actually has a ball court like the Mayans. Kind of cool. They were the ancestors of the Akimei O'odham (we call them the Pima--we apparently rarely call a tribe by their actual name) and Tohono O'odham peoples. The canals that are currently in Phoenix, Arizona are actually based off of the Hohokam canal system that was there previously so Phoenicians can thank the Native Americans for their water ingenuity there. The O'odham language is actually considered a Uto-Aztecan language. That language grouping would include the Ute and the Hopi.

That's very fascinating! There has been people suggesting that the Maya traveled here to obtain pigments for Maya Blue paint, as far north as Georgia in fact. I also heard of a lake or pond where layers of Maya Blue pigment was found, as if rituals and celebrations were being held.....Not unlike those at Chaco Canyon I suppose. It's interesting when climbing up to see New Alto and Pueblo Alto there is a mound adjacent not yet excavated with poetry shards scattered about. In fact, Peñasco Blanco isn't fully excavated yet and as I walked about I found several pottery shards. I just took a picture and placed them on rocks for others to admire.

Here is the mound yet to be worked, I wonder what lies beneath:



Pottery shards at Peñasco Blanco:



I wonder just how involved the trade system was and if there are clear evidences in trade with the Maya. Further, did the "Anasazi" trade for lumber to build their structures or did they really travel 100 miles and bring back the lumber themselves.

The Diné and the Apache consider themselves family--cousins to be exact. They are related tribes. Both of them belong to the Na-Dene language group, which is most densely found on the West coast of Canada. For the Diné, they call the Canadian tribes the Northern Diné. The story goes that, at one point after they arrived in the Glittering World, the Diné were split and lost some of their people. When they finally arrived in Dinehtah, they sent out scouts to try to find their lost friends. After a long time, they found them further up North. When the scout pleaded with them to return home with him, the Northern Diné refused. The Northern Diné were cursed and the story goes that if the Northern and Southern Diné should ever meet, the world will end. The two groups have been separated ever since though there is a story about how a Northern Diné met a Southern Diné at a World Fair long ago. Thankfully, the world didn't end from that meeting.

Now that is very interesting and it reminds me of a book I bought for my daughter at the Mesa Verde Museum called, "The Girl Who Loved Horses", in the story a girl who loves horses fell asleep. A storm came and the thunder scared her and the horses. They all get lost and the next morning a stallion comes and leads them to a family of wild horses. She integrated with them, as do the horses for a time. Her tribe finally finds them, and although the stallion attempts to fend them off they obtain her and bring her back to the tribe. She isn't happy and gets sick until the tribe grants her wish to return to the wild horses.

Now though its not the same it's interesting to note how sometimes reuniting isn't always the best. I guess its best to leave well enough alone......curious.

Native American languages can basically be broken down into three major language groups based on similarities--Amerind (contains the aforementioned Uto-Aztecan), Na-Dene, and Eskaleut (ie Inuit). This little fact actually suggested that the tribes arrived in the Americas in three separate waves. However, genetically, all of these tribes actually share the same lineages and that's sent the migration wave theory into a bit of a flummox. How can you have multiple waves of migration if they are all related?

I couldn't agree more! There is something here that doesn't seem to fit, at least not with official or "historical" references granted even they don't claim to fully know either. I am sure this is one of those times that a secret society (tribal elders) may have some clue. What is your take on Lumeria? Do you think it's possible the Native culture could have sprung from that Legend? Than became scattered across the Americas when their Archipelago sank under the ocean?

I don't know if they have a way to figure out when specific mtDNA was inserted into a tribe or not or if they have done that already, but the one thing that I think of is Kokopelli, the flute player. Kokopelli is a deity based on an Aztec traveling salesman of a sort and associated with fertility. Whenever Kokopelli came to town, pregnancies soon followed, lol. If anything, the myth of Kokopelli suggests that perhaps the admixture of genetic material may have been related to trade between the tribes. The range for Kokopelli is considered to be just a SW deity but rock art of Kokopelli has actually been found in Grotto Canyon in Alberta, Canada. That's way, way, way North.

I seen the Kokopelli alive and well in Pueblo, Co. also. Thanks for your awesome contribution to this thread!