Blog: Common Atheist and Theist Mistakes in Argument

originally posted by: HarbingerOfShadows
a reply to: Annee

Ah.
So atheism.about.com trumps stanford?
Fascinating.....

About the author Austin Cline. Yes, his expertise on atheism trumps Stanford.

Austin Cline has been actively involved in educating people about atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism on the Internet for over 15 years. atheism.about.com...

a reply to: Annee

And why is that?

a reply to: mindseye1609

Great.
I am very glad to have been of service.


I must be honest and say I am being sort of sneaky.
I do agree with this.
But.
I posted it as sort of a test to follow another test I posted.
Neither of which's result I am happy with.

this song just came across my music player and it felt so relevant.



what tests exactly? and why not happy with the results?

a reply to: mindseye1609

I think I shall keep that part to myself.
Adds nothing to the conversation really.

And the reason that it bothers me is that it does not bode well.

a reply to: mindseye1609

I think this one hits a bit closer to the mark...



-Peace-

a reply to: Eryiedes

Uhm....
You realise he was talking about how he felt about something right?

a reply to: windword

You don’t think a disbelief in a belief is a belief?
You believe it’s the absence of belief, right?

be•lief
biˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1. 1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
o something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows

Actually, agnosticism would be the default. You can not believe or disbelieve a concept you have not thought of. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I disagree. Agnosticism can only be achieve once the prospect of a god has been considered. The result is, after examination "I don't know if there is or isn't a god.

The default position of atheism is of the unconsidered prospect of a god existing. One can't disbelieve in something that one never considered. If one has been presented with a concept of a god, and after consideration and examination does not belief, then, and only then, one can say that there is a "disbelief."

I believe that religious people have constant thoughts that "God" is watching or "walking" with them during their day. They say prayers, etc. However, an atheist doesn't actively tell themselves "there isn't a god" during the day and before meals. Your average atheist isn't being an "active" atheist, doing an "atheist thing".

a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows

Hey Harbinger,

I participated in another recent thread of yours and I'm getting the sense that maybe you'd like to see the level/quality of dialogue between atheists and Christians elevated . . . by both sides.

If that is the case, then I applaud your attempt and I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

Honesty, mutual respect, real scholarship/reasonably objective research & presentation and anything approaching a sense of collaboration are sadly missing in so many of the conversations that take place here on ATS between atheists and theists.

ATS would be a great place if people could bring their ideas/positions/arguments here and submit them for fair, respectful & constructive criticism . . . especially by people that disagree with them.

There are too many people on the site "advertising" their beliefs and promoting their agendas, (Whether that be theist, atheist or whatever), and not enough seeking to learn, grow, refine their positions, and lend others a hand in doing the same.

a reply to: windword

I believe that religious people have constant thoughts that "God" is watching or "walking" with them during their day. They say prayers, etc. However, an atheist doesn't actively tell themselves "there isn't a god" during the day and before meals. Your average atheist isn't being an "active" atheist, doing an "atheist thing".

Faith in a religion in poetic analogy is relatable to Footprints in the Sand.

originally posted by: imwilliam
a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows

Hey Harbinger,

I participated in another recent thread of yours and I'm getting the sense that maybe you'd like to see the level/quality of dialogue between atheists and Christians elevated . . . by both sides.

If that is the case, then I applaud your attempt and I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

Honesty, mutual respect, real scholarship/reasonably objective research & presentation and anything approaching a sense of collaboration are sadly missing in so many of the conversations that take place here on ATS between atheists and theists.

ATS would be a great place if people could bring their ideas/positions/arguments here and submit them for fair, respectful & constructive criticism . . . especially by people that disagree with them.

There are too many people on the site "advertising" their beliefs and promoting their agendas, (Whether that be theist, atheist or whatever), and not enough seeking to learn, grow, refine their positions, and lend others a hand in doing the same.

I've been trying to come up with a thread about this. what makes us so adversarial? i know I'm number 1 offender. i dont know why but alot of the time my first reaction to someone who's spouting off about something thats "Wrong"* i get this urge inside like i need to defend what it is that makes "Me" up. even tho i try to meditate every day ON JUST THIS SUBJECT and ACTIVELY tell myself "scio me nescire" and try so hard day in and day out to try and remain humble and learn from people.

engrained from the survival of the fittest days? idk but it effects A LOT of people here and its a bummer. thankfully some of us are very good at eating crow and even more are good at just battling it out trying to find the truth somewhere in the passive aggressive pokes. some things are accomplished but I'm afraid overall we slow down the progress of these threads and ideas by bickering in the end.

Id be really interested to read up on some professional thoughts on just this subject. I'm going to go dig and see if theres anyone talking about it or if theres anyone discussing the extremism in todays atheist/theists.


*Wrong is relative, could even be as simple as another sports team from an opposing school.

a reply to: mindseye1609
What happens is that when someone tell any person they are wrong the brain reacts by activating lower functions.

It is to say you are ready to fight.

It happens to all of us and can be very difficult to control.

I will admit that I am confused by the term atheist.
Do they wonder where we came from? (Not saying you have to believe God did it but surly the though crosses your mind?)
Do they ever ask "what if"?
No offence intended but to say you know enough to come to the conclusion that there is not a God seems a little arrogant.
I could see it, if you were presented with a question, got information on each view and decided to pick a side or to remain neutral.
Yet that is not what you (resident atheist) are saying.
By the definitions I have seen what you are actually saying (to me anyway) is that you have been presented with the information but instead of making a decision or staying neutral you have chosen a third route.
You have decided that the question does not exist.........how does that work?

Theism, atheism, agnosticism—it all revolves around the concept of God, and has zero context outside of the discourse on supernatural deities. I mean try it—if someone asks if you'd like a drink, say "No thanks, I'm agnostic." These ideologies are meaningless without the idea of God, which theists, atheists, and agnostics are not in the least bit without. They can say lack of belief, or non-belief, or whatever sort of way they want to toss their word-salad, but they are nonetheless concerned with their own opinions on the nature of God. It's all just theology, a pursuit with no goal or end, and all who take part are theologians.

a reply to: Quadrivium

No offence intended but to say you know enough to come to the conclusion that there is not a God seems a little arrogant.

As another poster already said, the term "god" is loaded. What does it mean?

Isn't it arrogant to think that a god would put so much attention on the human race?

I could see it, if you were presented with a question, got information on each view and decided to pick a side or to remain neutral.

Like what kind of question? Why do I have to "pick a side"? Why isn't my own observation valid?

Yet that is not what you (resident atheist) are saying.
By the definitions I have seen what you are actually saying (to me anyway) is that you have been presented with the information but instead of making a decision or staying neutral you have chosen a third route.
You have decided that the question does not exist.........how does that work?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. What information has "one" been presented with which a decision should be made? Why do have a problem with three "routes"? Yes, No, I don't know......What question is being avoided?

a reply to: windword
Hello windword,
Haven't seen you in a while.
If you take the first half of my post, that you did not comment on, and apply the context to the rest of the post, it should be easier to understand.
Thanks
Quad.

As i have aged, having been involved in Christianity and Catholicism, I have decided to identify myself as agnostic. I look around at the beauty around me, and have no problem feeling that there is something greater than I in this Universe. It could be the Great Spirit of the Native Americans, it could be God of the Christians and Jews, or what ever other denominations call their spirit. It could be Allah, it could be Jehovah, it could be Buddah. I have no idea, and basically choose to live my life as a good person. Sometimes the most simple principles will guide you, a very good Wiccan friend explained their principles to me, and by far, they seem to make the most sense.

Do what you will, but harm ye none.

Seems like a pretty good guide to life, but without all the magic and potions and bull feces.

a reply to: Annee

The belief that there is no God is certainly a belief, though it isn't a religion.

I believe there is no God. I don't know it for a fact.

It's okay to make these concessions. The place to draw the line is in front of idiots who claim that atheism is a 'religion'.

originally posted by: HarbingerOfShadows

Actually, agnosticism would be the default. You can not believe or disbelieve a concept you have not thought of.

originally posted by: windword
I disagree... The default position of atheism is of the unconsidered prospect of a god existing.

Actually, belief in supernatural entities is the default position for Homo Sapiens.

I don't know why. No anthropologist, psychologist or biologist knows why, though they all have their theories. But it's true all the same. Tell a child, however young, a story about God or ghosts or invisible powers and the child will believe it. True, children believe what parents and other adults tell them; Richard Dawkins has speculated that it is precisely this readiness to believe adults — which helps children survive to adulthood by heeding warnings of danger, etc. — that has resulted in the emergence of religion as a characteristic of our species. But whatever the cause, there is no doubting that it is a characteristic: religion is a cultural universal.

Atheism and agnosticism both have to be learned, and are rarely found among children, who are believers by nature. Few primitives or people from backward cultures are atheistic; openly avowed and tolerated atheism is the mark of an advanced civilization.