What is evolution, not what some think

Ok so.. Now we have;

- Abiogenesis is not a requirement for evolution
- Evolution is not a requirement for abiogenesis
- Evolution does not dismiss the possibility of creation
- There is no other alternative other than evolution after abiogenesis

So... Hypothetical statements... True or false?
1) If abiogenesis turns out to be impossible, evolution would still be true
2) If evolution ever turns out to be false, it would have no implications on the research regarding abiogenesis.

originally posted by: GetHyped
Er... what does any of this have to do with evolution? I fear your grasp on reality is tentative at best.

It's got everything in the world to do with it.

I don't have the slightest doubt about my beliefs concerning reality.

I seriously doubt you can say the same with a straight face.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

I seriously doubt you can say the same with a straight face.

Oh, I'm struggling to keep a straight face alright.

originally posted by: vasaga

- There is no other alternative other than evolution after abiogenesis

What? Who said this? No viable alternative has been posited. Big difference.

a reply to: GetHyped

Ok. Does that mean there's a possible alternative to evolution after abiogenesis takes place?

a reply to: vasaga

No viable alternative has been posited. Big difference.

originally posted by: vasaga
Ok so.. Now we have;

- Abiogenesis is not a requirement for evolution

Correct

- Evolution is not a requirement for abiogenesis

Correct

- Evolution does not dismiss the possibility of creation

Correct

- There is no other alternative other than evolution after abiogenesis

Incorrect. Just because an alternative hasn't been suggested doesn't mean that there can't be one. Evolution is just the leading theory.

So... Hypothetical statements... True or false?
1) If abiogenesis turns out to be impossible, evolution would still be true

Correct

2) If evolution ever turns out to be false, it would have no implications on the research regarding abiogenesis.

Correct

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Look we have seen it happen, it is proved by.....oh what is the point no amount of evidence will change your mind.
Every time a thread like this comes up we provide evidence and you lot just ignore it and dismiss it without even taking that evidence in.
Face facts the law went against Creationism because it has no science backing it up where evolution has tons.

Evidence is NOT the issue.

FRAUD is the issue.

Like I said, people are far too gullible.

TPTB are KNOWN liars.

Darwinism is no exception.

Not one particle of scientific evidence has been found in support of evolutionary theory.

" ‘Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact.’ [Tahmisian called it] a tangled mishmash of guessing games and figure juggling."—*Fresno Bee, August 20, 1959, p. 1-B [quoting *T.N. Tahmisian, physiologist for the Atomic Energy Commission].

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ok. The most obvious question I can ask now is, if abiogenesis and evolution are separate, evolution does not dismiss the possibility of creation, and the overwhelming evidence as of now is for mainly evolution and not abiogenesis, why is it that creationism is hated so much in these forums?

originally posted by: vasaga
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ok. The most obvious question I can ask now is, if abiogenesis and evolution are separate, evolution does not dismiss the possibility of creation, and the overwhelming evidence as of now is for mainly evolution and not abiogenesis, why is it that creationism is hated so much in these forums?

Because creationists like to make up "facts" about what evolution says and doesn't say. I can't count how many times I've corrected someone saying that abiogenesis and evolution are the same thing. Many times I have to correct them multiple times in the same thread or multiple people in the same thread (sometimes multiple times as well). That isn't the only common misconception they like to spew. So when a group is notorious for throwing out strawmans and various other fallacious arguments while not listening to the evidence that says what they are saying is wrong, it isn't surprising that this group would come to be viewed with contempt.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ok. Fair enough. Carry on.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: vasaga
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ok. The most obvious question I can ask now is, if abiogenesis and evolution are separate, evolution does not dismiss the possibility of creation, and the overwhelming evidence as of now is for mainly evolution and not abiogenesis, why is it that creationism is hated so much in these forums?

Because creationists like to make up "facts" about what evolution says and doesn't say. I can't count how many times I've corrected someone saying that abiogenesis and evolution are the same thing. Many times I have to correct them multiple times in the same thread or multiple people in the same thread (sometimes multiple times as well). That isn't the only common misconception they like to spew. So when a group is notorious for throwing out strawmans and various other fallacious arguments while not listening to the evidence that says what they are saying is wrong, it isn't surprising that this group would come to be viewed with contempt.

Seriously?

The whole entire theory of evolution rests on a foundation of nothing BUT hoaxes and frauds!

Piltdown man was the biggest scientific hoax of the 21st century...

“The big picture is, they drew images of a man FROM A FREAKING PIG'S TOOTH, and Life from Space, Archaeopteryx, Java Man, Neanderthal Man, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Peking Man and East Africa Man were all frauds. There is and has been no proof ever presented to this day of one SPECIES becoming another species.”

“They put these frauds in the text books for a generation to accept as true. Then they are discovered to be frauds so they quietly remove them for the next generation of students and add the new fraud and then it's discovered to have been faked again so they add the new fraud and remove the old and it goes on and on... The sad thing is, most of people never hear about it.” Scientific Fraud - Nebraska Man

a reply to: Murgatroid

Ok so that was 100 years ago. Science has recognized that hoax for what it is and has moved on already. You should probably do the same thing. Your hoax does nothing to discredit evolution. It's just a stupid example of some hoaxers trying to cash in on the evolution thing and failing miserably. It doesn't completely discredit evolution because there is plenty more COMPELLING evidence to support evolution in addition to this lame century old hoax.

a reply to: Prezbo369

You either believe in a god....or you don't.

Why?

Personally I believe that belief in a 'God' is unprovable until either death or the advent of some sort of 'Judgement Day'.
Anything else requires an element of blind faith.

Exactly the same as disbelief in a 'God' is unprovable until death or the lack of a 'Judgement Day'

And as such I think its utterly irrelevant.
I don't care if there is a 'God' or not.
I will live my life by a moral code that I set myself - if 'God', this supreme omniscient, omnipotent entity does exist then I'm certain he'll judge me on my acts and deeds and not on whether I've adhered to some man written code or dogma.
If 'he' doesn't exist then I've lost nothing and I've tried to live a 'good' life.
No harm done.

So really, who cares?

But the existence of 'God' isn't really the core subject of this thread, its about a belief in evolution or not.

There is no inbetween, no fence to sit on, no opportunity for you to look down on anyone on this issue.

I'm not sitting on the fence, that's my belief and that's it - who are you to dictate what I can or can not believe?
And I'm certainly not 'looking down' on anyone - I simply don't agree with the opinions some people have expressed.
You don't dictate the rules or the criteria.
That's the problem with far too many people - Theists and Atheists - believe what I say no matter what.
Bollocks to that.
I try to think for myself - if I'm wrong then so be it, but it was my choice, my belief.

So do you believe in a god?

Completely and utterly irrelevant.
Its an unprovable question so why waste time thinking or worrying over it?

If you answer 'yes' you're a theist.....

Obviously.

If you give any other answer, including 'I don't know'..........you're an atheist.

Utter bollocks.

a reply to: Murgatroid

It actually IS the mother of all conspiracies...

Where is the actual evidence that the TOE is a conspiracy put forward and maintained by some sort of secret cabal?
And exactly what is the aim of this super 'conspiracy'?
Surely not control because as far as I can tell judging by history organised religion and its blind faith in a creationist version of events has been one of the greatest control mechanisms throughout human history.

Exactly what are these people trying to achieve by pushing the evolution myth and deceit?

It's not just believed by a couple of ATS nutters

People who refuse to accept blind faith and try to judge things on evidence and facts are 'nutters', but people who believe in something that relies and is dependant on blind faith and religious dogma are not 'nutters'?

It's been exposed by countless high ranking officials and many whistle blowers who have seen it from the inside as well.

And countless more 'high ranking officials' and eminent scientists etc have provided fact based evidence that the TOE is the best explanation, at present, given that facts available to us.

The belief in some sort of secret organisation that controls governments and manipulates events to further their own agenda has absolutely zero relevance on this discussion.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Ok so that was 100 years ago. Science has recognized that hoax for what it is and has moved on already. You should probably do the same thing. Your hoax does nothing to discredit evolution. It's just a stupid example of some hoaxers trying to cash in on the evolution thing and failing miserably.

Of course you have evidence to back that up as well I'm sure.

Oh wait I almost forgot, there ISN'T any, dang...

That same fraud goes on all day and every day.

Five minutes in any search engine makes it extremely obvious.

I suppose you already know that by now.

"Paabo (Neanderthal and Denisovan anthropologist) has made many fantastic claims of discovery before only to have independent scientists debunk his findings. Professor Paabo, is still smarting (over ten years ago) much like the other atheists that his claim of finding the missing link between Neanderthal and modern humans was debunked by DNA (Intelligent Design) research. Professor Paabo's has been wrong so many times before that I know enough of his reputation to wait for an independent peer review." jacksonville.com...

This crisis over the specimens began in 1983 when six leading British scientists, led by *Fred Hoyle and *R. S. Watkins, declared in print that Archaeopteryx was a definite hoax, just as much as Piltdown man had been a hoax. This brought still further uproar. It had been the same British Museum which had been duped into the Piltdown Man hoax ("found" from 1908 to 1912 only a few miles from Darwin's old home, publicly announced that same year, and shown to be a hoax in 1953).THE *HOYLE/*WATSON EXPOSE

How convenient for you that there is really no need to refute it because all the programming has taken care of that for you.

The Illuminati have long known that if you destroy belief in God, people will cease to fear God and to obey the Ten Commandments. They then become pawns of the Illuminati, willing to serve money instead of principle, and carry out iniquities from sexual misdeeds to even murder.

In the Illuminati propaganda arsenal, the greatest tool for destroying faith in God has been Darwin's theory of evolution. I know some say "I believe in evolution and God." Nonetheless, countless people have become atheists from being taught the theory as "fact" - I was once one of them. Darwinism is an Illuminati Scam

a reply to: Murgatroid

I could post evidence but I'll just do what you said and post a search on google:
evidence for evolution

Oh look at that 128 million hits. Well damn and I didn't even go to scholarly articles. Though of course you will tell me that all that evidence is one giant hoax and link to some crazy conspiracy site spewing lies or blowing non-issues out of proportion. See this is why I cannot argue with you. You just discredit the majority of all scientists in the world in favor of a few nuts and nothing I provide is good enough. All I can say is that you are wrong. Evolution is true and it isn't a trick of Satan. That is just absurd. Because like I JUST got done saying, god and evolution can co-exist.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you think it is the fact we are related to Apes and Monkeys and stuff why they deny all the evidence?.
Are their views on humanity and where we came from that arrogant that they can not accept everything is related? that man is supposed to be made in Gods image but that would mean he was also a Primate?.
Personally I am proud and well chuffed that we are all a big related family on earth.
Thoughts?.

a reply to: boymonkey74

It doesn't excite me one way or the other. It's just a fact of life for me. Though, to me, I'd interpret the saying that god made us in his image a bit differently. What if god represents the ultimate result of evolution and god making us in his image means that he isn't talking about humans, but life in general? It puts a whole new perspective on things. It's fun to play the bible interpretation game, anyone can do it.

I guess it's mostly because I've realized how insignificant the entire earth is in the grand scheme of things, let alone our species. So the information that humans' ancestors were apes and the varying chain of animals all the way back to single celled organisms says that we aren't anything special, I'm not surprised. Intelligence is just another evolutionary advantage. One of the best ones to come out of the evolutionary pool. Though it is rather destructive since it tends to gravitate towards chaos, just like the rest of nature.

But what makes it even worse is that if the universe is truly infinite or even just large enough, STATISTICALLY there should be another Milky Way galaxy out there with all of us having this same exact conversation. Heck there is almost guaranteed to be another race of humans out there, just like there is guaranteed to be aliens beyond our wildest imaginations. These statistics are all greater than 0 since our existence on earth proves them to be so. Therefore give a large enough space, they will repeat again. So given a large enough universe, even the saying that you are a unique little snow flake is untrue. Yet all that doesn't bother me, because I just realize it doesn't matter and isn't worth getting all worked up over.