What is evolution, not what some think

My prediction: This will be another disappearing act like every other thread in this forum when a Creationist can't respond with competing evidence or intelligent logic. They simply disappear into the ether and hope that the hard evidence will go away! Don't count on it baby.

originally posted by: Phantom423
My prediction: This will be another disappearing act like every other thread in this forum when a Creationist can't respond with competing evidence or intelligent logic. They simply disappear into the ether and hope that the hard evidence will go away! Don't count on it baby.

Sorry i cant respond to 10 different people and 100 different links, you do know how foolish all those links and the tremendous wave of ranting moaning and complaining is
You are all like fundamentalist religious weirdos, i feel sorry for you.

I have seen nothing but tired old links and no hard evidence, produce it or just walk away.
Links, links and more links, is that it.
I can refute your links with christian links, where is the evidence.

I am not going to argue against your faith. Its a faith

I have nothing t respond to

a reply to: borntowatch

Ok, you dismiss all scientific evidence presented you without so much as a wave of the hand, what do you expect as evidence? One of your fanciful "rock giving birth to a monkey" strawmen?

a reply to: borntowatch

Sorry i cant respond to 10 different people and 100 different links,

So pick one. Here's the one I provided earlier in the thread: Understanding Evolution. Or, better yet, here's the page at that site that directly refutes your claim that evolution is not observable, testable, or reproducible: Misconception About Evolution. The evidence is presented there better than I could cut and paste it into this thread.

you do know how foolish all those links and the tremendous wave of ranting moaning and complaining is

Educating yourself regarding a dissenting view is "foolish"? If you truly believe that, I feel sorry for you. And who is "ranting moaning and complaining"? You're the one who resorted to name-calling, you're the one doing the forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and repeatedly saying nope when someone provides evidence that one of your claims is incorrect.

You are all like fundamentalist religious weirdos, i feel sorry for you.

Fundamentalism is defined as "the demand for a strict adherence to certain theological doctrines", and theology is defined as "the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and of the nature of religious truths". Science is the opposite of religion or theology, in that it requires evidence and is not dogmatic in nature.

I have seen nothing but tired old links and no hard evidence, produce it or just walk away.

It's been produced. You refuse to try and understand the dissenting position. Why should any of us just walk away?

Links, links and more links, is that it. I can refute your links with christian links, where is the evidence.

Feel free to. I'm not afraid of reading and trying to understand a dissenting viewpoint. I've read as many creationist links as I have that support evolution. Why are you afraid to do the same?

I am not going to argue against your faith. Its a faith

Faith is defined as "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof". Science is based on evidence, and that evidence stands whether you choose to ignore it or not, whether you choose to accept it or not.

I have nothing t respond to

I think what you mean to say is that you have no response.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Phantom423
My prediction: This will be another disappearing act like every other thread in this forum when a Creationist can't respond with competing evidence or intelligent logic. They simply disappear into the ether and hope that the hard evidence will go away! Don't count on it baby.

Sorry i cant respond to 10 different people and 100 different links, you do know how foolish all those links and the tremendous wave of ranting moaning and complaining is
You are all like fundamentalist religious weirdos, i feel sorry for you.

I have seen nothing but tired old links and no hard evidence, produce it or just walk away.
Links, links and more links, is that it.
I can refute your links with christian links, where is the evidence.

I am not going to argue against your faith. Its a faith

I have nothing t respond to

Of course you have nothing to respond to! What a surprise! Once again, you have weaseled your way out of responding to a legitimate scientific paper that demonstrates reproducible results.

I realize the content was over your head - so I'll give you a break. Just crawl back into the hole of ignorance and self deception. It's a comfortable place where like minds can engage in incestuous conversations.

But for anyone else who's truly interested in the hard science of evolution, the paper that I cited says everything you need to know about evolution research - it is a fact that is observable, reproducible and confirmed by experiment.

originally posted by: Phantom423


Of course you have nothing to respond to! What a surprise! Once again, you have weaseled your way out of responding to a legitimate scientific paper that demonstrates reproducible results.

I realize the content was over your head - so I'll give you a break. Just crawl back into the hole of ignorance and self deception. It's a comfortable place where like minds can engage in incestuous conversations.

But for anyone else who's truly interested in the hard science of evolution, the paper that I cited says everything you need to know about evolution research - it is a fact that is observable, reproducible and confirmed by experiment.

Understand this, I have a free will and a right to choose what I want to believe, you dont control me, you have nothing I want or desire.
Your belief in evolution to me is as silly as my belief in creation is to you.
The difference is I can accept what you believe.

I see no evidence in evolution, no species changing into new species. Yeah a few slight changes in DNA, wow I am now a believer. Evolution, black skin, white skin, red or yellow. It proves nothing.
Your genetic sequencing proves common design, get over it.

Explain the big bang, no I am not allowed to ask that, the first spark of life, OH NO thats off limits as well.
I dont play your game, I have my questions that remain unanswered

Read the opening post and then get back to me, otherwise complain backbite and storm off in a huff
I made the first post didnt even ask for answers but like good evangelists you have decided to force your opinions and views on me Wow, religious fundamentalists are now atheist science fundamentalist.

Lets start again shall we

One of the issues I am tired of having to explain is what evolution is, not just to me but recognised by the scientific community

Here is a list
The Different Types Of Evolution

The Different Types Of Evolution
The following types of Evolution are described:

1. Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter, by the Big Bang

2. Chemical Evolution: The origin of higher elements from hydrogen.

3. Stellar and Planetary Evolution: The origin of stars and planets.

4. Organic Evolution: The origin of Life.

5. Macro-Evolution: The changing from one kind of species to another kind of species.

6. Micro-Evolution: The variation within kinds of species.


www.freechristianteaching.org...

Seemingly every argument between the creation believers and the atheist groups, the issue of evolution comes up and the anti creationists resort to a common "abiogenesis is not evolution" stance.

Sorry, abiogenesis is a reason I dont accept evolution, organic evolution or abiogenesis is a reason.
Cosmic evolution is another, stellar and planetary evolution as well, yes even chemical evolution.
I dont take these aspects of evolution as separate issues

To me its like building a house
Cosmic evolution is the ground the house is built on, stellar evolution the foundation of the house, organic, the walls and finally the roof is your pet subject macro evolution.
See without explaining the first 4 issues, the 4th issue becomes irrelevant.

Yes I agree with Micro evolution.

Anyway you are welcome to believe in anything you want to, just please dont say abiogenesis is not evolution.
It is, obviously just not the evolution you want to talk about.

Maybe if you want to specify in future you only want to discuss macro evolution and define it as such, then fair enough

Now this isnt an argument just explanations of the types of evolution.
Thanks for reading

The theory of cosmic evolution
www.extension.harvard.edu...

The theory of planetary evolution
www.umich.edu...

The theory of Chemical evolution
en.wikipedia.org...

I will stop there

So as you can see, these theorys are labelled as evolution, so when I say i dont believe in evolution I am not just talking about biological evolution.
Understand

a reply to: borntowatch

I see you are back full circle to the same strawman arguments you posted in your OP.

originally posted by: borntowatch
So as you can see, these theorys are labelled as evolution, so when I say i dont believe in evolution I am not just talking about biological evolution.
Understand

Fine.
So, what do you think about biological evolution. specifically?

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing those theories share is the broadly-defined word "evolution". But evolution is just a general term in those cases. In the theory of evolution, the term "evolution" is further defined in a specific manner (defined by the mechanism of that evolution, which is "natural selection"), and it has very very little to do with Cosmic Evolution, Planetary Evolution, or many other general ideas that used the broad definition of the that term.

I mean, that's like saying that people who create "Family Trees" of their ancestors are engaging in the science of botany (or even dabbling in Einsteins Theory of Relativity. Family trees and "Relativity" -- get it ? )

originally posted by: borntowatch
Sorry, abiogenesis is a reason I dont accept evolution, organic evolution or abiogenesis is a reason.

Cosmic evolution is another, stellar and planetary evolution as well, yes even chemical evolution.
I dont take these aspects of evolution as separate issues

Yes you've obviously taken the time to understand the scientific theories you disagree with and it obviously has nothing to do with your chosen superstitions, bravo!

However, I don't think you've taken into account another kind of evolution....

originally posted by: borntowatch
Sorry, abiogenesis is a reason I dont accept evolution, organic evolution or abiogenesis is a reason.

Cosmic evolution is another, stellar and planetary evolution as well, yes even chemical evolution.
I dont take these aspects of evolution as separate issues

originally posted by: Prezbo369
Yes you've obviously taken the time to understand the scientific theories you disagree with and it obviously has nothing to do with your chosen superstitions, bravo!

Prezbo -- I have a feeling you are being sarcastic, but I'd like to point out a flaw in borntowatch's comment:

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution. The Theory of Evolution attempts to explain how life changes over time to create new species from old. The Theory of Evolution does NOT attempt, nor ever has attempted, to explain the origin of life itself (abiogenesis).

How life began is a totally separate issue that is not covered by the Theory of Evolution and the Origin of Species.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Phantom423


Of course you have nothing to respond to! What a surprise! Once again, you have weaseled your way out of responding to a legitimate scientific paper that demonstrates reproducible results.

I realize the content was over your head - so I'll give you a break. Just crawl back into the hole of ignorance and self deception. It's a comfortable place where like minds can engage in incestuous conversations.

But for anyone else who's truly interested in the hard science of evolution, the paper that I cited says everything you need to know about evolution research - it is a fact that is observable, reproducible and confirmed by experiment.

Understand this, I have a free will and a right to choose what I want to believe, you dont control me, you have nothing I want or desire.
Your belief in evolution to me is as silly as my belief in creation is to you.
The difference is I can accept what you believe.

I see no evidence in evolution, no species changing into new species. Yeah a few slight changes in DNA, wow I am now a believer. Evolution, black skin, white skin, red or yellow. It proves nothing.
Your genetic sequencing proves common design, get over it.

Explain the big bang, no I am not allowed to ask that, the first spark of life, OH NO thats off limits as well.
I dont play your game, I have my questions that remain unanswered

Read the opening post and then get back to me, otherwise complain backbite and storm off in a huff
I made the first post didnt even ask for answers but like good evangelists you have decided to force your opinions and views on me Wow, religious fundamentalists are now atheist science fundamentalist.

Lets start again shall we

One of the issues I am tired of having to explain is what evolution is, not just to me but recognised by the scientific community

Here is a list
The Different Types Of Evolution

The Different Types Of Evolution
The following types of Evolution are described:

1. Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter, by the Big Bang

2. Chemical Evolution: The origin of higher elements from hydrogen.

3. Stellar and Planetary Evolution: The origin of stars and planets.

4. Organic Evolution: The origin of Life.

5. Macro-Evolution: The changing from one kind of species to another kind of species.

6. Micro-Evolution: The variation within kinds of species.


www.freechristianteaching.org...

Seemingly every argument between the creation believers and the atheist groups, the issue of evolution comes up and the anti creationists resort to a common "abiogenesis is not evolution" stance.

Sorry, abiogenesis is a reason I dont accept evolution, organic evolution or abiogenesis is a reason.
Cosmic evolution is another, stellar and planetary evolution as well, yes even chemical evolution.
I dont take these aspects of evolution as separate issues

To me its like building a house
Cosmic evolution is the ground the house is built on, stellar evolution the foundation of the house, organic, the walls and finally the roof is your pet subject macro evolution.
See without explaining the first 4 issues, the 4th issue becomes irrelevant.

Yes I agree with Micro evolution.

Anyway you are welcome to believe in anything you want to, just please dont say abiogenesis is not evolution.
It is, obviously just not the evolution you want to talk about.

Maybe if you want to specify in future you only want to discuss macro evolution and define it as such, then fair enough

Now this isnt an argument just explanations of the types of evolution.
Thanks for reading

Another rant. You can ask whatever you want - I don't see anyone trying to discourage you from asking questions. It's YOU who does not respond to the hard evidence.

Once again - pick any topic in evolution and I'll discuss it with you. You've ignored that offer on more than one occasion. If you have evidence, here's your opportunity to present it.

a reply to: borntowatch

Understand this, I have a free will and a right to choose what I want to believe, you dont control me, you have nothing I want or desire. Your belief in evolution to me is as silly as my belief in creation is to you. The difference is I can accept what you believe.

Yes, you are completely free to ignore a view that deviates from your own. The fact that you equate someone presenting evidence for a different point of view than the one you currently posses as an attempt to control you is both sad and a little frightening. No one here has stated that they don't accept what you believe, the argument seems to be circling around you denying that evidence has been presented. If you want to set a standard of evidence that is so high it cannot possibly be met about any scientific theory, that's fine. But be honest about it.

I see no evidence in evolution, no species changing into new species. Yeah a few slight changes in DNA, wow I am now a believer. Evolution, black skin, white skin, red or yellow. It proves nothing. Your genetic sequencing proves common design, get over it.

Here's a short list of some examples of observed speciation. This list is 20 years old, and far from exhaustive or complete. Again, if you want to ignore the evidence, that's your prerogative. But be honest and say that you simply won't accept any evidence for evolution because it disagrees with your particular faith. But don't claim that there's no evidence or that evolution isn't really science, because that's simple dishonesty.

Explain the big bang, no I am not allowed to ask that, the first spark of life, OH NO thats off limits as well.

Maybe if you specified what you wanted to discuss, this would be easier. You're jumping between unrelated scientific topics and trying to conflate them with biological evolution. If you want to discuss the Big Bang, great. If you want to discuss abiogenesis, great. But be clear about what you're trying to discuss. Again, honesty is a wonderful thing when engaging in a conversation like this.

One of the issues I am tired of having to explain is what evolution is, not just to me but recognised by the scientific community

When the word "evolution" is used alone, it's understood to mean biological evolution. The only thing that links the concepts you list in your OP is that they have the word evolution in them. What you're doing is the same as equating my car with my television because both utilize transmissions.

Sorry, abiogenesis is a reason I dont accept evolution, organic evolution or abiogenesis is a reason.

Abiogenesis is completely unrelated to evolution. One is how life got here, the other is what life does once it's here. Life could have been created, that doesn't change the fact that we observe evolution.

To me its like building a house

You refuse to acknowledge that evidence contrary to your worldview even exists, so why should I care what matters of science "seem like" to you? You have shown zero scientific literacy in any thread you've "contributed" to so far. Educate yourself about what science is, how it works, and then the evidence that supports the theory of evolution. Then come back and try to tell us what it "seems like" to you.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: borntowatch

I see you are back full circle to the same strawman arguments you posted in your OP.

Bringing it back on track, if you dont like it find the door.
Why do my beliefs offend you, what is so wrong with my choices, is it me or is it you that has the problem.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: borntowatch

I see you are back full circle to the same strawman arguments you posted in your OP.

Bringing it back on track, if you dont like it find the door.
Why do my beliefs offend you, what is so wrong with my choices, is it me or is it you that has the problem.

I think that people have a problem with you ignoring the evidence that they present and then eventually pretending that no such evidence has in fact ever been presented.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Also the inability to evolve his mind.
If I see evidence I can change my mind because I don't cling to religion.
Religion does that closes off the actual laws of nature (or God) to us all. We have the choice to understand more of the universe and in my view that is getting closer to God than any religion.
If religion clouds peoples minds and makes them willfully ignore the facts laid in front of them it is time to show them how wrong their religion is.

originally posted by: Phantom423

Once again - pick any topic in evolution and I'll discuss it with you. You've ignored that offer on more than one occasion. If you have evidence, here's your opportunity to present it.

Cool, when time permits I would appreciate the opportunity. Now I dont have evidence of creation its a faith, though there are many indicators.
Moons distance from the earth.
Incomplete fossil record.
Genetic coding
Entropy (closed or open system argument)
Dating rocks with fossils and fossils with rocks
lack of evidence

You know what all these have been done to death, and you want to do it all over again.

We should do the Lenski thing, you can post links and spend time saying and writing and researching and then I can say.

Bacteria turned into bacteria, wow I am speechless at how you think that must impress me

The evidence you will bring is not enough, its only supporting what you want to believe.

originally posted by: iterationzero

Here's a short list of some examples of observed speciation. This list is 20 years old, and far from exhaustive or complete. Again, if you want to ignore the evidence, that's your prerogative. But be honest and say that you simply won't accept any evidence for evolution because it disagrees with your particular faith. But don't claim that there's no evidence or that evolution isn't really science, because that's simple dishonesty.

Some pages ago this exact thing came up I replied.
A goatweed became a goatweed, a mouse became a mouse, fish became fish.
I believe that, we have a name for that, it proves you dont understand the argument nothing more.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

I think that people have a problem with you ignoring the evidence that they present and then eventually pretending that no such evidence has in fact ever been presented.

Read the OP and please bring the evidence to the table, its not been done.

Oh wait I didnt ask for evidence, I just stated what I and others consider evolution as.
Some people around here dont like me calling some things evolution because it upsets their respective position.

The OP was not about biological evolution, yet that is all the evolutionists are prepared to discuss.

Hmmmm, why is that.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: iterationzero

Here's a short list of some examples of observed speciation. This list is 20 years old, and far from exhaustive or complete. Again, if you want to ignore the evidence, that's your prerogative. But be honest and say that you simply won't accept any evidence for evolution because it disagrees with your particular faith. But don't claim that there's no evidence or that evolution isn't really science, because that's simple dishonesty.

Some pages ago this exact thing came up I replied.
A goatweed became a goatweed, a mouse became a mouse, fish became fish.
I believe that, we have a name for that, it proves you dont understand the argument nothing more.

As I said, pick a topic. I don't need chaotic rhetoric. Thanks.

P.S. The evidence I will bring will be first hand from the lab.