Elliot rogers and men who hate women

bellejar.ca...

No. We have no evidence yet that he suffered from any kind of mental illness or was seeking any sort of treatment. Immediately claiming that with no proof to back that fact up leads to the further stigmatization of the mentally ill, and contributes to the (incorrect) assumption that mental illness equals violence, and vice versa.

We don’t know whether Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. What we do know is that he was a Men’s Rights Activist, or MRA.

He was an active member of the “PUAhate,” an online forum (which has been down since the shootings) dedicated to “revealing the scams, deception and misleading marketing techniques used by dating gurus and the seduction community to mislead men and profit from them.” And just to clarify, they’re not revealing these scams because of how vile and misogynistic they are, but rather because these men have tried these techniques and still failed to trick women into sleeping with them. These are men who both feel entitled to have sex with women and also blame all women everywhere for not #ing them. See, they want to have sex with a woman because that’s what they deserve just for being dudes, but they also hate women for withholding what they view as rightfully theirs. And I mean, boy do they ever hate women. The PUAhate forum has, according to an article on The Hairpin, threads with titles like “Are ugly women completely useless to society?” and “Have any hot women ever committed suicide?”

Rodger also subscribed to several YouTube channels on how to be a ‘pick up artist,’ including The Player Supreme Show and RSDfreetour as well as multiple MRA channels.

Last night, shortly before going on his killing spree, Rodger posted a video on YouTube to serve as his manifesto. In it, he declares that he’s a 22 year old virgin, and then goes on to say:

‘College is the time when everyone experiences those things such as sex and fun and pleasure. But in those years I’ve had to rot in loneliness. It’s not fair. You girls have never been attracted to me. I don’t know why you girls aren’t attracted to me. But I will punish you all for it,’ he says in the video, which runs to almost seven minutes.
>‘I’m going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB and I will slaughter every single spoilt, stuck-up, blonde slut that I see inside there. All those girls that I’ve desired so much, they would’ve all rejected me and looked down on me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them,’

‘I’ll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one. The true alpha male …’

This is what the Men’s Rights Movement teaches its members. Especially vulnerable, lonely young men who have a hard time relating to women. It teaches them that women, and especially feminist women, are to blame for their unhappiness. It teaches them that women lie, and that women are naturally predisposed to cheat, trick and manipulate. It teaches them that men as a social class are dominant over women and that they are entitled to women’s bodies. It teaches them that women who won’t give them what they want deserve some kind of punishment.

We need to talk about this. The media, especially, needs to address this. We live in a culture that constantly devalues women in a million little different ways, and that culture has evolved to include a vast online community of men who take that devaluation to its natural conclusion: brutal, violent hatred of women. And I don’t mean that all these men have been physically violent towards women, but rather that they use violent, degrading, dehumanizing language when discussing women. Whose bodies, just as a reminder, they feel completely entitled to.

Another reminder: this isn’t an isolated incident. Not by a long shot. No, most men don’t go out in a blaze of glory after shooting up in a sorority house, but there are so many examples of men becoming violent towards women after being rejected. Like the kid last month who stabbed a girl to death because she wouldn’t go to the prom with him. The threat of violence is the main reason why many women feel unable to leave an abusive relationship – because after leaving is when they are at their most vulnerable. When you look the statistics on violence against women, Elliot Rodger’s act doesn’t seem so much like a one-off incident. He was participating, albeit in a grandiose public way, in the time-honoured tradition of controlling women with violence and punishing them when they don’t behave as desired.

Well folks that didn't take long for people to use this story as some more gender war bullsquirt.

There is no question that what was done is wrong on so many levels but to blame it on Mens rights activists is just as bad as blaming it on the gun laws. In situations like this you can't simply say one thing is at fault. There are to many factors at play here, this article just bothers me so much. What do you all think?

I though the article was accurate. Guns don't join forums to talk about all the problems they are going to solve nor make youtube videos complaining about their targets. Guns are tools that can be misused, this man is a symptom of a global society that denigrates women.

The fact there are forums that discuss "men's rights" with such aggression is frightful news to me as a woman and shows how far we still need to improve women's social standing in life. Men's rights are as important as women's but should be about custody of children etc. not a right to women's bodies and acceptance of violent behaviour. Women will not be equal members of society until they live without fear of this type of men and despite the average man being loving and wonderful, we need the average man to out and shame these abominations.

a reply to: Shepard64

There is actually no evidence he was a supporter of MRA's, this was all over the feminist blogosphere because they feel his statements sounded the same as the MRA pieces that are selected to be posted on feminist forums.

He posted on PUAhate (pick up artist hate) forums, PUAhate and PUA's are generally mocked by the MRA community from what I saw after looking into this the last few days.


The #yesallwomen is a opportunist activist campaign on the heels of their very recent #notallmen campaign that made its rounds the week prior.

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2014 10:45 AM -0700
“Men explaining things to me had been happening my whole life”: The author behind “mansplaining” on the origin of her famous term
Salon spoke to Rebecca Solnit about her new book, gender-based violence, and why "rape culture" is a useful phrase
SORAYA CHEMALY
www.salon.com...

Here's why women have turned the "not all men" objection into a meme
www.vox.com...

But it would appear that not all men (and not all people generally) are fully caught up on the meme, where it comes from, and the point it's getting across. Here's a brief history of the term, and why it's taken on such resonance lately.

1) What is a man?

Might as well start here. A man is an adult male of the species homo sapiens. To clarify, "adult" here does not mean someone who's able to pay their own rent, or treat others with respect. Adult simply means that this male has gone through puberty and is no longer a boy.

Some additional notes about men:

A man is someone who pays his female employees less.
A man is someone who interrupts a woman when she's in the middle of saying something.
A man expects his wife to do all the cooking and cleaning.

What's that you say? Not ALL men pay their employees less? Not ALL men interrupt women?

Thanks for pointing that out. You're who this meme is about.

Divisive gender politics indeed. Just read the comment sections and you will come across some serious and hate filled racism and sexism directed at white men.

It is important to realize most of these folks really sound like they are posting just to vent and it would be a mistake to think that a majority act this way in public.

jezebel.com
salon.com
vox.com
feminist.org

All these websites can help outline the world view many of these folks have adopted in case there a folks who are interested in it.

Here are some MRA joints;
reddit.com/r/MensRights/
mensrights.com

-FBB

I have not seen said forum's so maybe I am just ignorant to how bad the situation is.

In fact after reading the link to the daily cos from the OP's blog;

www.dailykos.com...

The true Alpha Male. What those who call themselves the Mens Rights Movement aspire to be.
The Men's Rights Movement as they call themselves is a nebulous group of pickup artists and misogynists who've found each other on line, and are attempting to create a movement based around their hatred, disdain, and fear of women.

We know for a fact that Rodgers was influenced by this movement, as he is subscribed to multiple "pick up artist" or "mens rights" channels on YouTube. (For those here that don't use YouTube, when a user subscribes to a channel, they receive notifications when that channel posts a new video.)

They include:

"The Player Supreme Show" which rails against the feminization of men and talks about how to pick up women.

"RSDfreetour" which is a series of self-help seminars run by RSD Nation, a "pick up artist" site.

There's also a user called McHenry Cruiser who in addition to being a pickup artist is a comedian who has some kind of beef with Louis CK, and another called "Squatting Cassanova," who seems to be your average PUA.

I'm still digging through some of the folks he's subscribed to.

He is what the Men's Rights movement calls an "Incel" which is short for involuntary celibacy. It's a hot topic in various parts of the manosphere.

These are all Pick Up Atrist websites . . . there isn't one link to an actual MRA website or channel . . .

WTF?

Honestly WTF?

-FBB

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli
And with this new violent event there's going to be yet another fearful generation of young women lashing out!

If women felt safe in general they wouldn't feel powerless and angry. A lot of those magazines and sites are about women trying to find strength, albeit a bit misguided, in the face of weakness. Most have probably gotten hurt, and I don't mean rejection for dates, more like rape, violence or social abuse of some kind.

Its no different than terrorism... if the western world bullies other countries eventually we'll have a generational backlash of kids who's families got destroyed and feel there is not hope. Women sometimes feel this lack of hope in the face of their perpetual second class standing.

The problem of misogyny has to be stopped at its roots, with raising our children to respect, not bashed at by intellectuals.

Edited to add.. I'm done talking about this. I'm 46 and still don't feel welcome on this planet because of being female so retreating back for the day to my loving family... evolved, well balanced husband included.

originally posted by: igloo
a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli
And with this new violent event there's going to be yet another fearful generation of young women lashing out!

If women felt safe in general they wouldn't feel powerless and angry. A lot of those magazines and sites are about women trying to find strength, albeit a bit misguided, in the face of weakness. Most have probably gotten hurt, and I don't mean rejection for dates, more like rape, violence or social abuse of some kind.

Its no different than terrorism... if the western world bullies other countries eventually we'll have a generational backlash of kids who's families got destroyed and feel there is not hope. Women sometimes feel this lack of hope in the face of their perpetual second class standing.

The problem of misogyny has to be stopped at its roots, with raising our children to respect, not bashed at by intellectuals.

Edited to add.. I'm done talking about this. I'm 46 and still don't feel welcome on this planet because of being female so retreating back for the day to my loving family... evolved, well balanced husband included.

I agree in general, but the term misogyny really needs a clearly defined meaning for the vast majority of the public. As it stands right now, everything is misogyny.

What ER expressed was indeed misogyny, that is, the hatred of women. I posted in the breaking news thread what I got from reading his insane writings, videos, and blog posts and absolutely agree it was misogyny.


I have no idea how you are going to find a solution to the fear issue of feminism. If they were abused that is a violation that can cut real deep and might never heal enough to eliminate the general perception of constant danger. Most of those offenders would not respond to the type of campaign or treatment being advocated. Sex offenders are most often repeat offenders and victims themselves (of a sex offense, usually as children). I linked to the #notallmen movement earlier and would suggest you look up the percentage stats on men who commit these crimes.

I don't think the Fem movement is making any progress towards their goals with their current methods of name calling, shaming, and general dis-information.

I do agree that the problem needs to be addressed seriously, but with empirically supported methods which seem to be shunned by the Fem movement. As it stands right now a brief overview of their material is comes across as women telling men what they think, what their motivations are, all while telling men they can't tell a woman what to think.

-FBB

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

Spot on, Broccoli

originally posted by: Shepard64

In situations like this you can't simply say one thing is at fault. There are to many factors at play here, this article just bothers me so much. What do you all think?

I think that if you continue to say things like "There are too many factors........you can't say that just one thing is at fault" then you are never going to solve any problems at all. When everything is subjective or open to interpretation or has too much of a gray area so as to be be conclusive, then nothing will ever be truly defined.

In other words, saying what you do is a cop out to actually solving a problem.

So what is at the core of this loser that made him do what he did? A sense of entitlement. There's your definitive answer because he gave it to you in his manifesto. Everything else like that organization he belonged to......those are peripheral. They are there so people like him can go somewhere and feel like they fit into a niche of society. They don't matter here.

So how do you "cure" someone from having a sense of entitlement? You don't if you live in a Democratic society. A Democratic society is not one that is proactive against issues like this because a Democratic society fosters attitudes like yours....."There are too many factors involved" and that in turn leads to a society that is always sitting back saying "What a shame this happened....I wish we would have seen the warning signs". Unless people are totally blind and ignorant of how other people behave, people see the signs just fine. They're too afraid to act proactively against it because a Democratic society discourages that type of behavior.

You know, the type of behavior that recognizes and deals with issues before they become problems.

MRA groups are classified as terrorist groups by some. Not because of what they advocate, but because of how they do it.

a reply to: igloo

The problem of misogyny has to be stopped at its roots, with raising our children to respect, not bashed at by intellectuals.

Edited to add.. I'm done talking about this. I'm 46 and still don't feel welcome on this planet because of being female so retreating back for the day to my loving family... evolved, well balanced husband included.

I treat women and men equally. So I say to you, good riddance. I'll hold the door, I'm a gentleman.
Is this misogyny if I don't agree with you ?
Grow up and stop blaming men for all the problems YOU have.

a reply to: Shepard64

There is no doubt that Elliot Roger was severely disturbed. It is clear that whatever was so fundamentally wrong with this young man had a strong streak of entitlement to it. There is also no doubt that his video and written manifesto were both misogynistic. At least at this point in his life his entire world view was seen through that lens. I don't know that Elliot Roger was an MRA. I do know that he certainly expressed a very similar ideology about entitlement that centered on what women should be doing for him that many on those MRA sites also express, although... Everything is a matter of degree and he took that entitlement and ran another mile or so with it in comparison with the mean. It is clear that he was exposed to MRA and PUA ideology and that this influenced him. While I understand why many MRA's are invested in denying this and distancing themselves from this guy as much as they can it is frankly pointless. While I think that he was an anomalous one-off the sentiments about women expressed on many of these sites would certainly encourage Elliot Roger and any like him to continue to blame women for their problems and resentment will fester instead of resolve. Any time you have a social ideology built around resentment and hate there is a risk (and in enough time an eventuality) for those negative sentiments to build to violence.

I personally , after researching and reading these forums a bit, believe if he had not joined these, these events would not have happened, at least not at this point.

A twitter account where some guy picked out most "hilarious" quotes from the forums.

Taking quotes from PUAhate has to me been 'real life' satire. I grab quotes that are so outlandish that I can't believe they exist.

The last few days have been a reminder that this isn't satire unfortunately. These are real people with horrific, violent views.

You can laugh the quotes I find, Just remember that somewhere out there is a real person who wrote and believes it.

twitter.com...

The hate is extreme on that site and considering the posts made by various users, it was just matter of time, until something like that happened.

On this particular case, finding like-minded people and seeing their rationalisations of the situation, just made him feel even more desperate, more hopeless, wanting to find a solution. Based on the most popular theory there, the world is ruled by LMS law (looks-money-status). Lack any of these, especially looks, you are screwed for life, no way out. When winning the lottery did not work out, the guy just did not see any other way. Already having mental health issues, years of negative experience, he just searched for the scapegoat for all his problems - women - and the hate just got fueled from the forums.

The very idea that men are "trying techniques to trick women into sleeping with them" tells me a VERY, VERY, SAD story about the mind of guys who think this way. The whole idea of "picking up women" is so vile and disgusting to me. It's like the guy is going fishing, putting some sort of "bait" out there and hoping the fish takes a bite...

Sorry. I really enjoyed the article and I agree that this mindset exists and is a huge problem in today's society.

So many men get defensive when this subject comes up (samsamm9), as if women think that ALL men are asshats and that we are blaming men for our troubles. We don't and we aren't. It's just that all of us have most likely had to deal with some guy who thought he was entitled to take what he wanted from us. There are plenty of great guys out there, but you can believe that we've had to deal with some of the ones who aren't so great.

originally posted by: igloo
I though the article was accurate. Guns don't join forums to talk about all the problems they are going to solve nor make youtube videos complaining about their targets. Guns are tools that can be misused, this man is a symptom of a global society that denigrates women.

The fact there are forums that discuss "men's rights" with such aggression is frightful news to me as a woman and shows how far we still need to improve women's social standing in life. Men's rights are as important as women's but should be about custody of children etc. not a right to women's bodies and acceptance of violent behaviour. Women will not be equal members of society until they live without fear of this type of men and despite the average man being loving and wonderful, we need the average man to out and shame these abominations.

It's unfortunate that there are aggressive men's groups, but remember, there are just as many women's where they are just as rabid and malicious. As I said in another post, co-operation trumps competition and if we co-operated more and competed less, I think everyone would get along much better.

Cheers - Dave

I give no sympathy to either side of a "sexism" debate. The idea that this bull crap actually matters and is relevant to ANYONE is completely retarded and unfathomable.

What about women who hate men? Both sides of the argument is petty and childish, fools...the lot of them

The worst thing about it is that girls were probably interested in him, but he never ever engaged with them...

It is funny as I do relate to his pains (in some way) not as deeply though. I am an introvert, not all that tall (not a virgin lol, and not a women hater), and do not engage women... But I know that is my fault.

I of course do not agree on any point at what he has done, obviously. But I can imagine, a little, of what he was going through.

And I do believe that he lacked "good friends" to point him in the right direction.

He became victim of his own thought process, and his excess of self motivation due to his thought process, and nobody to switch him out of it.

And I do believe I could have become as bitter and deranged as him towards my peers if I had not met the right people a decade ago.

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli

I agree in general, but the term misogyny really needs a clearly defined meaning for the vast majority of the public. As it stands right now, everything is misogyny.

What ER expressed was indeed misogyny, that is, the hatred of women. I posted in the breaking news thread what I got from reading his insane writings, videos, and blog posts and absolutely agree it was misogyny.


I have no idea how you are going to find a solution to the fear issue of feminism.
-FBB

I just wanted to point out the last sentence above, without knowing your views or intentions and knowing you were just writing extemporaneously, the sentence points to the problem (unconscous misogyny) as being more subtle and unconsciencly reactionary. Not deliberate but pervasive throughout society. It's not about women seeking superiority but seeking parety.



I have no idea how you are going to find a solution to the fear issue of feminism.

You - a woman's issue beneath the concern of men. Isn't it really a 'WE' issue. It hurts men as much as women.

From my perspective, as a woman, I find the tone of dismissal degrading.

This is common usage among men, women too - it is learned and reinforced daily in homes and tv, etc and if we don't look at it, can't see it, can't acknowlege it's existance, we can not move to a true partnership society of equals.

I find it interesting that young people don't really care about anothers sexual preferences - but the Man/Woman thing is still there - and in spades judging from Friday's Massacre in Isla Vista.

The really sad part of this tragedy is, groups will use this story to push whatever agenda they have, the victims and there families will be forgotten.