Scientists to Congress - Aliens Exist.

originally posted by: SixX18
I disagree. There is 100% life out there, we don't have the means to find it, yet. We have to take care of #1, ourselves. If we had unlimited resources, heck yes, we would find it.

In 2 words, Christopher Columbus.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

For the price of one aircraft carrier we could detect technological civilizations just about anywhere in the galaxy.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: SixX18
I disagree. There is 100% life out there, we don't have the means to find it, yet. We have to take care of #1, ourselves. If we had unlimited resources, heck yes, we would find it.

In 2 words, Christopher Columbus.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

For the price of one aircraft carrier we could detect technological civilizations just about anywhere in the galaxy.

Isn't it what SETI has been doing for decades? What do you propose that could work better?

The fact that humans are to define what intelligent life is...speaks volumes of irony. If humans were intelligent they would have surpassed all the bigotry that takes place on Earth and moved on into space and beyond.

The reason these scientists are lobbying congress is because ET has no lobby firm on K-Street.

Seriously though if you want to find real aliens in your lifetime you should hope that Congress does give these people the funding they need to find them.

A little story...

Back in the 1980s we had the technology to discover other planets around other stars with a spacecraft like Kepler. Problem was, no one wanted to fund it.

Kepler was turned down FOUR or FIVE times between the 1980s and early 2000s.

Part of the Kepler story has always been the long, arduous road NASA scientists William Borucki trod to get the spaceship off the ground: he came up with the idea in the mid-1980s, and his proposed mission was rejected either four or five times by NASA, depending on how you count, before it was finally approved.

So finding Earths cousin or twin could have happened over 30 years ago.

It was not a technological issue.

It was a FUNDING issue.

Likewise, today we know how to find different tell-tale signs of other civilizations in our Milky Way galaxy.

All that is lacking is the funding to do so.

22% of stars like our Sun have a habitable planet. This figure was arrived at through analysis of data collected by Kepler mission scientists.



The nearest one of these is habitable planets around a Sunlike star is not 1000s of lightyears away but probably less than 15.




Meaning there are tons of planets similar to Earth just within 1000 light years of our Solar System. Additionally there are likely plenty more habitable planets around lower mass M-stars. We know how many of these there are in our neighborhood and we know the percentage of them with habitable zone planets (48%).



So, there are plenty of places to point our future instruments at, which won't be thousands of light years away but in our backyard.

We could closely examine by my estimate around 3,619 nearby (under 500 light years) habitable planets for signs of life and even technology with the right instruments.

But it costs money to build them.

NASA has a plan to find other life in the Galaxy with future space telescopes but the real visionary stuff is still unfunded.








However, NASA is FORBIDDEN by CONGRESS of looking for intelligent life.

That's just plain stupid, and one of the things that the scientists who went before Congress are interested in turning around.

SETI has been surviving on donations since the early 1990s.

Chances are within the next 30-40 years we will find real aliens if we build the planned instruments.

See my reply below for how all this may play out.

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: ArtemisE

In my view, discovery of extraterrestrial life, if it comes, is pretty unlikely to be a dramatic event in itself (even though the implications will of course be extremely important).

If we discover it in the solar system then it's likely to be a probe detecting single-celled organisms or other simple life forms, maybe on Europa (I'd love to see a probe dip into that ocean!)

If we discover it in a different star system it may be down to spectroscopic evidence which would be a good marker but not outright proof.

Or the more exciting possibility is a Contact-style radio signal being received.

I see it more of an escalation of events over years.

#1 might be detecting biosignatures through spectroscopic evidence with something like the James Webb Space Telescope or a large ground based telescope like the European Extremely Large Telescope (E-ELT).....



which would lead to larger and more sensitive instruments to look at and listen to the world(s) they were detected on.

Which might lead something like the Colossus Telescope being built.....




which might lead to...

#2 The detection of waste heat and/or artificial lighting on a planet's surface, indicating a civilization with technology.

Which might lead to something like Project Cyclops being built



which could lead to.....

#3 The possible detection of radio or other artificially produced electromagnetic signals (optical or infrared communication, etc) from that world.

which could lead to something like Project Longshot being built to visit the star system with a robotic probe.


In other words a cascading effect due to advances in technology.

I outlined a likely scenario in this old post here on ATS: Astronomers Detect First 'Clear Signs of Civilization' Beyond Earth - How will you react?

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: SixX18
I disagree. There is 100% life out there, we don't have the means to find it, yet. We have to take care of #1, ourselves. If we had unlimited resources, heck yes, we would find it.

In 2 words, Christopher Columbus.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

For the price of one aircraft carrier we could detect technological civilizations just about anywhere in the galaxy.

Isn't it what SETI has been doing for decades? What do you propose that could work better?

SETI has been expanding its search over the last two decades.

Most people associate SETI with looking for radio signals but thats only part of SETI.

That, traditional SETIi now called Radio SETI.



There are some small projects which are looking for laser signals.

This is called Optical SETI.



There are also searches and a proposed (unfunded) telescope to search for large scale (Type I, Type II, Type III) civilizations by looking for their waste heat or even the equivalent of city lights.

This is called Infrared SETI.

Looking for Type II and Type III civilizations


Would look for Type I civilizations


There are also people interested in looking for Gravity Waves. Who knows, perhaps ET uses technology which produces them?

This is called Gravity Astronomy and Gravity SETI.



What about entangled particles? Well there are people interested in figuring out how ET might be able to use entangled Neutrinos for communication. Neutrinos pass through just about everything so they would be the perfect particle to use for quantum entangled communication (if it is were possible, doubtful that it is).

This is called Particle SETI.




What about life itself being used to encode messages from an intelligent species? Well there are scientists looking into our DNA and DNA of other species on our planet for signs of artificial manipulation and coded messages.

This is called Genetic SETI



These are just some of the areas that SETI is looking for ET in.

Additionally the SETI Institute does a lot of research in related fields like exoplanet research. Kepler 186f, Earth's "Cousin" was discovered by a scientist from the SETI Institute.

One thing they would love to have is a space telescope which could take pictures of Earth sized planets because then their atmosphere could be examined for signs of life. Our Earth is detectable as a living world many light years away due to our vast forests giving off oxygen.

They also do a lot of research into extremophiles, tiny, creatures which can survive in harsh environments, including the vacuum of space.

They also are studying how to communicate with dolphins and other species of intelligent animals on our planet.



So as you can see, there's plenty of stuff SETI does beyond pointing radio telescopes at the sky looking for the scenario from the movie Contact.

a reply to: JadeStar

Very interesting. Thanks!

Now I'm starting to hope the ESA will spend more money into these since NASA is focused on strategic conquest of space as usual, by request of the govt, as per usual American policy.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: JadeStar

Very interesting. Thanks!

Now I'm starting to hope the ESA will spend more money into these since NASA is focused on strategic conquest of space as usual, by request of the govt, as per usual American policy.

Thank you.

Actually NASA just increased its space science budget.

I too hope ESA does more. It seems most of what they've done has been to look at what NASA was doing and make complimentary missions.

Very happy that GAIA launched and is in good shape.

I wish Darwin would have been able to stay on track but like our Terrestrial Planet Finder, ESA's Darwin Mission got cancelled.

ESA does not have even NASA level funding though, so lobby your parliament to make it so

BTW: I participate in a program which uses a UK telescope based in Australia to do some exoplanet related research so I am all for Europe spending more money if we won't over here.

I certainly hope intelligent life finds Earth long before violent greedy monkeys finds them.

originally posted by: Jungian
I certainly hope intelligent life finds Earth long before violent greedy monkeys finds them.

Even if we found life out there among the stars, unless it was around a very nearby star (under 20 light years away) it is unlikely we'd be able to visit it for more than a century, probably a couple of centuries so they'd be safe....

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Jungian
I certainly hope intelligent life finds Earth long before violent greedy monkeys finds them.

Even if we found life out there among the stars, unless it was around a very nearby star (under 20 light years away) it is unlikely we'd be able to visit it for more than a century, probably a couple of centuries so they'd be safe....

Until we can travel Interstellar this is of course true. But knowing where to go is basically the first step. And for the past merely 50 years, the technological evolution of monkeys has advanced in an alarming rate.

Hopefully it all ends like in Prometheus; We meet our maker. But with a better outcome

originally posted by: Loveaduck
a reply to: Xtrozero


I wonder if killers are given cosmic permission to eat other killers? I guess what I wonder is if survival of the species would over rule compassion and humanity? For example, if we meet a life form superior to humans and that life form is easily able to subdue us, would they be able to kill and eat us, or farm us for food? Would some galactic ruler come and save us from such a gruesome death? I have to look at what ever we do to our animal friends here, and assume this is also what another species would do to us.

I haven't seen one come and save the cows, so I don't think we would fair any better.

All I can say is "Duh." I can honestly tell someone that I have seen nonhuman, intelligent lifeforms, not of this planet, and I'm just a crazy. Someone can title themselves a scientist, and suddenly everyone is listening. It is very frustrating.

originally posted by: DarthFazer

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
while i agree that the chances are that there is life else where in the universe.
there is no way they can say for certain. i have yet to hear any credible evidence that a intelligent life from has came up to any one and said hey how ya doing, or any radio or any other from of contact.

so there can not be a 100% certainty that other life exists.

It IS a mathmatical certainty hence they CAN say for certain. See drakes equasion. You cant argue with math. en.wikipedia.org...

We did not split the atom on theory alone

Really? Please tell me what the numbers are for the last 4 variables in the drake equation?

originally posted by: EnPassant


if life needs a spiritual intelligence to iniatiate it and evolve it, it will only arise in the universe wherever spiritual beings decide to start it. Evolution is a project overseen by spirits. I don't believe it just arises out of matter by itself.

Could be, but it sure seems we desire to be special. Not just a process of our universe, but the one thing that take something very special to create. The question why is that special something needed?

I will be blunt. Anyone who thinks that our planet, in this big ol' Universe filled with galaxies and other planets, is the only one with life, is a dumb ass.

Isn't the nature of science to explore and seek proof?

I don't see no proof.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Jungian
I certainly hope intelligent life finds Earth long before violent greedy monkeys finds them.

Even if we found life out there among the stars, unless it was around a very nearby star (under 20 light years away) it is unlikely we'd be able to visit it for more than a century, probably a couple of centuries so they'd be safe....

What if that's not the way the universe works?

originally posted by: PhoenixOD

originally posted by: DarthFazer

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
while i agree that the chances are that there is life else where in the universe.
there is no way they can say for certain. i have yet to hear any credible evidence that a intelligent life from has came up to any one and said hey how ya doing, or any radio or any other from of contact.

so there can not be a 100% certainty that other life exists.

It IS a mathmatical certainty hence they CAN say for certain. See drakes equasion. You cant argue with math. en.wikipedia.org...

We did not split the atom on theory alone

Really? Please tell me what the numbers are for the last 4 variables in the drake equation?

You raise a good point. No one can tell definitively what those last 4 variables are.

We only recently learned "ηe" and that still need a little refinement.

We need other instruments to learn the other factors, though we should know 'fl' within a decade or two.

The Drake Equation was designed specifically for this purpose, to break the problem of "Are we alone?" down into bite-sized chunks which could be individually addressed with an experiment or tool like Kepler (which looked for 'ηe') or NASA's cancelled Terrestrial Planet Finder or the ESA's cancelled Darwin which would have looked for 'fl' sometime around 2016 had they gone on as planned.


That said, we have some guesses about 'fl' but that's all they are.

It should be noted that 'fp' and 'ηe' were unknown until fairly recently and it turned out our best guesses by very smart people in both cases were way too conservative. Will 'fl', the fraction of planets with life be the same way? The jury's still out but I hope to find out

Its good to know the universe continues to surprise us. The Drake Equation is no exception.

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
Isn't the nature of science to explore and seek proof?

I don't see no proof.

You're correct.

Science is based on proof.

Statistics is based on probabilities.

The headline of this post is about statistical probability.

What the scientists are saying is, that probability is so high so as to warrant the search.

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Jungian
I certainly hope intelligent life finds Earth long before violent greedy monkeys finds them.

Even if we found life out there among the stars, unless it was around a very nearby star (under 20 light years away) it is unlikely we'd be able to visit it for more than a century, probably a couple of centuries so they'd be safe....

What if that's not the way the universe works?

What do you mean?