Life before the universe: Where it all came from

Alright so I'm half asleep but someone got me on one of my thinking sprees, and I had a random thought that I figured I'd share before I forget about it.

Sometimes we wonder about how the universe came to be; if there was a big bang or some other method of creation, where did that matter come from? What was everything like before matter came into existence? Is it possible for there to have been nothing?
Well, a random moment of insight popped into my mind. First, I need you to assume there is a spiritual side of existence, something superior to simple physical existence.
Think of the universe; we have stars, planets, etc etc. We know they exist, we can see them, we can interact with them... They're there. Now think of the internet. The internet has websites, for example. You know websites exist because you're interacting with one right now. So now that you understand that the internet exists and that websites exist, think back in time to 1,000 years ago. There is no internet. There are no websites. That is because we haven't yet created the internet... We haven't made use of technologies and machinery to create what is essentially something out of nothing. You see, the internet doesn't naturally exist... You can't go for a walk in the woods and see a random web page scurrying along the ground. It exists because we created it.
Now compare the internet to the universe, and humans to a race of superior spiritual beings who do not have to abide by our physical laws. Just as we have created a form of existence to which we physically do not have to abide by its laws, these spiritual beings may have created our universe. It may seem a strange concept to imagine the entirety of physical matter being created from nothing, because to us, that can not happen. But now think about how we created the internet, and websites, and digital media.
The creation of our universe to these beings could have been as routine as our creation of the internet was to us. Do we still think the universe couldn't have been created from nothing?

Like I said, I'm half asleep and can't think straight. Hopefully I didn't say anything retarded because I'm barely conscious at the moment. I just wanted to hastily write down my thoughts before heading to bed.
Thoughts, anyone?

Nice topic, well done, thought provoking.

I have thought about this before and the concept of 'zero'. Nothingness.

I believe that ultimate zero, as in nothing at all, has never existed.

How can we have something if at sometime in the past there was nothing, nothing physical or spiritual, or anything.

It all had to start with something, whether spiritual physical or whatever. (in my understanding)

In order for 'anything' to happen, there must be something to cause it. Without 'something' we cant have 'anything'.

So, I believe there must have always been something while ever time itself has existed. Before time itself existed, (if possible) something must have kickstarted that also. Before time, is anything in existance eternal?

This would lead us to an obvious and far deeper problem. Where did these spiritual beings that created the universe, come from?

What was everything like before matter came into existence?

There was no "matter" in the early universe. Though everything we have in our present universe was already there in one form or another (except perhaps for space itself, which seems to be growing rapidly, is space something?). At the moment, we cant go back far enough to really know what preceded this.

en.wikipedia.org...
home.web.cern.ch...

Is it possible for there to have been nothing?

A fascinating philosophical question. I can see where there could be no time, space and matter etc. Though as to an absolute nothing, it simply doesn't compute.Not saying I know (I doubt anyone does) and I'm not saying the universe has to conform to my feeble logic, but while ever there is even the potential to become something, there can't be "nothing", obviously IMO.

Krauss has some interesting points, re science.
www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

If the spiritual beings are outside of time........does that make them eternal in some way?

There will come a time in the distant future when humans have discovered everything, invented everything, and there is absolutely nothing left to do, and someone will say, 'time to reboot'.

originally posted by: greavsie1971
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

If the spiritual beings are outside of time........does that make them eternal in some way?

I don't know ( not enough info and not clever enough lol). Though wouldn't time be necessary to observe such a thing (ie. we couldn't observe it anyway)?

If they can have any effect in this universe, this would necessitate them also being subject the laws of this universe, to time?

So if they can't be observed, or have effect in this universe, does it matter if they exist? If this isn't so, how could they have those properties?

Assuming these things exist, it could explain why we find no such thing (in any scientific sense). They simply leave us alone?

IMO, there is no reason to think matter/energy can be created or destroyed. At least nothing genuinely indicates this that we can observe and when we look at the fundamental nature of matter, it seems an illusion anyway. Krauss would disagree, but I still feel there is no such thing as a genuine "nothing" (I could be wrong though). Which could be an indication that the universe itself is eternal (in some form or other) whether in a form we can as yet understand, or not.

a reply to: trollz

I think we try to avoid thinking the obvious answer for this old question.

Science in general assumes everything was condensed into one minute dot and simply awaiting the kick to expand. By kick I mean suitable conditions that enable expansion.

Religionists assume that some massive spiritual being did create the universe. But they also tend to avoid the question of what came before that massive spiritual being. Eg:- "Who was God's parents ?"

I tend to think along the same lines as my old friend Tayesin did, that our universe is only one of billions of other universe-bubbles existing in larger space. And that our universe-bubble came into existence when two other u-bubbles touched, which created more than enough energy for a Big Bang and birth of "Our" universe.

This is a multiverse perception, but not one where Parallel Universes exist in order for any choices we did not make in this universe to get played out in one of the others. Such things cannot happen and are only suitable to sci-fi novels and movies, because the theory is ego-centric. It revolves only around us humans, and we are the least of what exists, so the theory cannot hold true.

This is something we cannot wrap our minds around and accept but it seems we will have to accept it. Nothing may never have existed. There has always been something. Something did not have to come from nothing. There never had to be a nothing. Something may have existed always and there may have never been a beginning.

Your mind as well as my own screams that is impossible cause something had to come from nothing. But can you prove nothing ever existed? No we can't.

Matter may create space. What we call space may not exists if no matter is present. It is possible there are voids of vacuum rather than space between Galaxies, maybe even between stars. Guess what that means? That means interstellar travel at faster than light speed could be possible once we leave areas effected by mass and gravity where "space" does not exist and enter a vacuum. In fact if this is true then all the galaxies and stars may be much closer than we think as light itself might instantly move from one gravity well to the next in the absence of matter and gravity. This would mean our estimate of distance and age are not correct.

We can only test our theories inside our Gravity well of Earth then the Sun then the Galaxy. We have no way of knowing if space even exists outside of these gravity wells. If this is true then Einstein would only be correct inside areas where Gravity and matter exist. We have NO reason to believe space exists everywhere. The growth we see of space may just be caused by more and more matter clumping together to form gravity wells with new suns and ever larger planets as the planets absorb more and more matter.

Time itself may only occur in the presence of matter, atoms, gravity wells. In a vacuum outside a gravity well there is nothing for "time" to occur on or with. There may not be this fabric of "Space Time" in between the stars. Perhaps what we envision as worm holes is simply any area in the cosmos where "Space Time" is not. This would mean outside gravity wells there would be no speed limits.

Imagine moving yourself in say a space ship to the very edge of the last influence of gravity of our galaxy. Does space time exist there? or would you just immediately travel to the next gravity well in the direction you were traveling?

If as I think space time exists because of matter and gravity and only inside their influence then interstellar travel is very doable. I just hope that we get lucky and space time is much less in charge once your far enough from our sun's gravity well so we can travel inside our galaxy from star to star very fast. I am hoping that Relativity is the law only inside gravity wells and that what exists outside the large gravity wells is more like Quantum world where time does not seem to exist at least not like it does to us.

It would also seem that once matter thus its gravity gets small enough that space time no longer has effect on it (Quantum entanglement) seems to support this idea. So it seems if you can get small enough you could ignore the effects of space time. Except maybe some minute amount based on what ever mass you bring along with you. You, your ship etc...

originally posted by: Oldie48
a reply to: trollz

I think we try to avoid thinking the obvious answer for this old question.

Science in general assumes everything was condensed into one minute dot and simply awaiting the kick to expand. By kick I mean suitable conditions that enable expansion.

Religionists assume that some massive spiritual being did create the universe. But they also tend to avoid the question of what came before that massive spiritual being. Eg:- "Who was God's parents ?"

I tend to think along the same lines as my old friend Tayesin did, that our universe is only one of billions of other universe-bubbles existing in larger space. And that our universe-bubble came into existence when two other u-bubbles touched, which created more than enough energy for a Big Bang and birth of "Our" universe.

This is a multiverse perception, but not one where Parallel Universes exist in order for any choices we did not make in this universe to get played out in one of the others. Such things cannot happen and are only suitable to sci-fi novels and movies, because the theory is ego-centric. It revolves only around us humans, and we are the least of what exists, so the theory cannot hold true.

I believe there are and where lots of "condensed into one minute dot". The multiverse where lots of singularities exist and or existed and spread into what we call our universe. We cant see them of course cause they are spread far apart.

The universe is and was nothing but energy slowed down until it became matter.

The universe wasn't a big bang...it was an instant freezing of energy....
the energy that became all of the matter of the universe.

The answer is infinity. If the universe is infinite there is no beginning and no end. "This" universe could have budded off from another, been created in a membrane collision within a bulk of infinite membranes, or be constantly branching off at every moment (as per a type 3 multiverse).

It gets into chicken and egg logic. If the universe was a collision in a bulk what created the bulk. If it was vacuum fluctuations what created the zero point field, and on and on...

If God created the universe what created god? If God has always existed why can't that logic be applied to the universe? Some may say, "look at the design, and the patterns that exist. It seems to have some sort of intelligence." My answer has always been in infinite space it is a given that patterns will emerge, it would be an anomaly if one didn't. Everything that could possibly exist does given infinite space.

Infinite universes, infinite splits/buds/fluctuations/collisions. No beginning, no end. No need for creation.

/End rant

a reply to: Xeven

I understand what you're saying, but... What about when we sent people to the moon, or the robot to Mars? Didn't both of those instances involve traveling through empty space?

a reply to: trollz

In physics, the word nothing is not used in any technical sense. A region of space is called a vacuum if it does not contain any matter, though it can contain physical fields. In fact, it is practically impossible to construct a region of space that contains no matter or fields, since gravity cannot be blocked and all objects at a non-zero temperature radiate electromagnetically. However, even if such a region existed, it could still not be referred to as "nothing", since it has properties and a measurable existence as part of the quantum-mechanical vacuum. Where there is supposedly empty space there are constant quantum fluctuations with virtual particles continually popping into and out of existence. It had long been theorized that space is distinct from a void of nothingness in that space consists of some kind of aether, with luminiferous aether postulated as the transmission medium for propagating light waves (whose existence has been disproven in the now famous Michelson-Morley experiment).

What if nothing was the start, then nothing got bored, split into two nothings, but since the two nothings were now different and separate nothings, they were each something. Then the splitting kept happening and I can't describe the process in which nothing turned into matter because a free public education system can't teach me how life works, other than through shallow concepts that can be applied as metaphorical similes to the universe's creation, like mitosis and meiosis. Remember, the cells in my body know they exist, but don't know they and the cells around them create me.

originally posted by: Lynk3
What if nothing was the start, then nothing got bored, split into two nothings, but since the two nothings were now different and separate nothings, they were each something. Then the splitting kept happening and I can't describe the process in which nothing turned into matter because a free public education system can't teach me how life works, other than through shallow concepts that can be applied as metaphorical similes to the universe's creation, like mitosis and meiosis. Remember, the cells in my body know they exist, but don't know they and the cells around them create me.

Why are you giving concepts and cells human characteristics?

originally posted by: trollz
a reply to: Xeven

I understand what you're saying, but... What about when we sent people to the moon, or the robot to Mars? Didn't both of those instances involve traveling through empty space?

In our immediate surroundings and likely the surroundings of any planetary body exist what they call space time. Between Earth and Moon and even Mars on out we have this thing they call a Fabric called space time. It is know to exists because when light travel through it it has a speed limit and when encountering a gravity well like caused by our Sun, Earth, Moon and planets the light will bend away from its original path toward the celestial body it is passing.

What I am talking about is if you took a ship and traveled so far away from any known source of gravity so that your no longer under the influence of any gravity, that in this location Space Time may not exist. This area outside a gravity well would be a vacuum and maybe the laws of physics don't act the same there as they do in a gravity well. So maybe between the Stars there may exist such areas were space time does not exist and this might allow things to travel through it at faster than light speeds or perhaps even instantly move from one gravity well around one star to the next.

I think it is more likely areas like this exist between Galaxies since they are very far apart where you could leave the gravity well of one galaxy until you ran into the next galaxies gravity well. If I am right and space time only exists in gravity wells then the laws of physics might be vastly different in these voids between galaxy and hopefully stars that are far enough apart. I am skeptical this could be true though since the galaxies gravity would influence the area stars exist in meaning you could not truly leave space time while still under the influence of a galaxies gravity well BUT maybe you get far enough away from any solar system you might experience lesser degree of space time meaning you might be able to travel faster outside solar systems gravity wells.

If space time is caused by gravity then getting away from gravity wells completely might allow faster than light travel or instant travel like in the quantum world. If this is true then the galaxies and maybe the stars we see may not be as far away as we think they are and the age of the universe may not be as old as we think it is.

Lets say your in a neighboring galaxy with a laser that can reach me in this galaxy. There is no gravity or matter in the space between your galaxy and mine. You shine your laser toward me and it travels through your galaxies space time at the speed of light until it reaches the very edge of your galaxies gravity well. Once no longer under the influence of your galaxies gravity well the space time ends and a vacuum begins so the laser photons immediately appear at the edge of my galaxies gravity well and the light returns to the maximum speed of light in space time while travel through my galaxy to me. Now if I don't know those Photons traveled the distance between the edges of our galaxies gravity wells instantly I will misjudge the distance and age of your laser because I am only accounting for the red shift that occurred inside our gravity wells and no redshift would occur in that void in between our galaxies. If this is even partly true that space time only exists in gravity wells then we got a lot of stuff really wrong as far as age and distance goes between galaxies etc...

We can hope what I am saying is true that there exists voids where space time does not exist between gravity wells where we can skip traveling some of the distance between galaxies and hopefully at least some stars.

If I am right we also may be able to fond away to cause our ship to ignore or not be influenced by gravity and space time meaning we could then travel faster even in a gravity well.

No need to create exotic worm holes as they already exist as voids between gravity wells if I am right!

It just occurred to me that these void areas where space time does not exist or exists much differently it might account for what they call Dark Matter surrounding each galaxy...hmm

a reply to: Prezbo369

Because all we ever know about anything was because it was observed by humans. A finite concept (language) becomes an infinite analogy. In math, 1-(-1)=2. In the universe you can't subtract a negative something, because you can't remove what isn't there. Therefore you can say the universe works on 1-(-1)=2. In fact you can say anything to describe the behavior of everything because in all of our studies of the unknown, concepts from the known were applied to it. Therefore, everything can be metaphorically correlated.

Also, why not give them any characteristics? They're not "characteristics" in the way you think they are. Maybe you think I'm giving the universe traits. We don't know what we don't know so to strike me down for figuring it out through methods that involve utilizing what we do know is absurd. All I'm saying is if the Big Bang is true, then we're all from the same energy source.

They say our universe is made of consciousness. They say it's a simulation. They say we're God's creation. They say we're all an infinite reproduction of ourselves learning about our "oneself" through an extrospective universe where even the rock I kiccked is a part of me somehow. They say there's nothing out there. They say everything, and yet, never actually say something. But neither am I, right?

a reply to: greavsie1971

In order for 'anything' to happen, there must be something to cause it. Without 'something' we cant have 'anything'.

Only if you don't believe in God.

a reply to: trollz

Your theory isn't too dissimilar to the one that says our universe is a simulation.

Basically the whole shebang, life the universe and everything, is but a computer simulation generated on some unfathomably advanced computer in another universe by creatures similar - or even identical - to ourselves.

So we humans may in fact BE god.

a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

I believe anything with a capability to create that in which isn't there is a god. God is oneness. The universe is god. We are gods. Our creator is a god, whether it be a force, a being, or pure energy. Our thoughts are gods.