Former Abortion Clinic Owner: We Pushed Sex Ed on Kids to Create a Market for Abortion

When are fundies/right-wingers going to realize that banning abortion won't actually stop it? People will just find a covert way of accomplishing what they want, such as back alley "doctors", or even trying to do it themselves. This would cause way more problems in the long run. I mean yeah, the whole idea of abortion is kind of unsettling, fair enough. But I'd rather people have a safe and professional way of doing it without having to resort to something more dangerous.

TL;DR - Throwing laws at everything won't strengthen the exterior of your security bubble.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
This woman spent years working in the abortion industry, and anyone claiming she's lying better have some evidence, or valid reason to doubt her word.

I spent years working in the beer industry. One of the secret ingredients in many leading brand beers is midget sweat. There are underground complexes underneath breweries that are lined wall to wall with treadmills and other assorted exercise equipment. On more than one occasion I was on 'sweat collecting duty'. My job was to do rounds around the room with a sponge and bucket, wiping the midgets down and wringing the sweat into a bucket. Anyone who claims I'm lying better have some evidence, or a valid reason to doubt my word!

See how easy it is to throw around logical fallacies?

P.S. The burden of proof is on the person asserting the claim.

a reply to: windword

Sounds to me like islamists who prescribe exactly what all muslims should think about stuff, but when you scratch the surface you find a variety of beliefs. And one doesn't necessarily define a movement's contours by its most radical, no matter how much they insist you should.

It may be useful to you in an argument to question someone's militancy, but in the actual political dogfight I'd say that pro or anti abortion matters more than "pro" or "not pro" life. In any event it's a pretty silly term - not many people are anti life. They just disagree on when it starts.

a reply to: JuniorDisco

I agree with that. Nobody is really pro-abortion or pro-death either. "We" are pro-choice. There are some pro-lifers that I would call anti-choice. There are some who think they're pro-life, but really they're pro-choice.

I'm debating the OP's claim that abortions are decreasing in number because of pro-life sensibilities. That's untrue. They're declining because of pro-choice sensibilities, like sex education and contraceptives, such as the PILL, IUDs and the Morning After Pill.

I suppose for the 'anti' abortionists this is the preferred outcome??

www.examiner.com...

and that was no more than 50/60 years ago, prior to the introduction of

legal abortions.

A very Christian outcome

I really shouldn't be surprised that Christians will swallow any propaganda that comes across their screen if it fits their agenda.

What garbage.

And people who buy this without even scrutinizing the source first, should be ashamed of themselves.

The antichoice crowd has been proven to say, do, lie, kill, ANYTHING, if it means removing the rights of others.

a reply to: eletheia

They need to clean their own house first.

a reply to: windword

I couldn't agree more. I'm sure there are arguments of detail in how sex ed is pursued as well, but the notion that it leads to more abortion, while a lack of it would magically lead to less, is absurd. As is believing that someone whose 2k/hr job relies on them pushing untruths is a reliable source.

a reply to: JuniorDisco

I gave an answer. You even called it "callous", so stop pretending you didn't get one. That's ridiculous.

Arresting any and all that participate in killing the unborn is a better solution. Treat it like any other murder. Clear enough for you?

Prove the numbers are similar. I'll be awaiting that data.

I didn't say to eradicate sex ed; I said it needs to be toned back down to normal levels, instead of the programming it is now. Again, reading comprehension matters.

a reply to: eletheia

Are you sure? How regulated are the places it happens? How often are they inspected, and can the public access the results of said inspections? If so, that's a far cry from here. Inspections are often not done, and bad clinics operate for years with no one in authority seeming to care.

Statistics cannot be obtained here because the abortion industry won't allow it. They hide behind a curtain or "privacy" that would have served the Wizard well.

Some do, some don't. How do you believe that is relevant to this discussion?

A newborn baby, left alone, cannot survive. Being helpless doesn't mean one is any less human. Do you support killing the severely disabled as well?

It's legal, but it's still murder. That will be acknowledged by all one day. That, I guarantee.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: JuniorDisco

I gave an answer. You even called it "callous", so stop pretending you didn't get one. That's ridiculous.

Arresting any and all that participate in killing the unborn is a better solution. Treat it like any other murder. Clear enough for you?

Prove the numbers are similar. I'll be awaiting that data.

I didn't say to eradicate sex ed; I said it needs to be toned back down to normal levels, instead of the programming it is now. Again, reading comprehension matters.

Reading comprehension does indeed matter. And it seems you're not top of the class for it, since you certainly haven't answered my question and I did not call your response callous. Indeed I couldn't have done, because you didn't give one.

Here it is again:

My contention, which you are unable to refute and so have to keep avoiding, is that it is less dangerous than illegal abortion.

Do you disagree with that proposition? Can you give a straight answer?

Do you disagree with that proposition? Can you give a straight answer?


On your other point, it's of course impossible to prove in the absolute sense (at least to someone reasonable - I'm aware that you simply reach for the first piece of evidence you find, even if it's just 'someone you met' and call that proof, but others have more rigorous standards). But the figures are the lowest they have ever been, as you know. Are they around the same level as pre-legalisation? I've seen nothing to suggest they are not.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

How regulated are the places it happens? How often are they inspected, and can the public access the results of said inspections? If so, that's a far cry from here. Inspections are often not done, and bad clinics operate for years with no one in authority seeming to care.

Whereas illegal abortion clinics would be inspected twice a week and checked for... oh, hang on...

originally posted by: JuniorDisco

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

How regulated are the places it happens? How often are they inspected, and can the public access the results of said inspections? If so, that's a far cry from here. Inspections are often not done, and bad clinics operate for years with no one in authority seeming to care.

Whereas illegal abortion clinics would be inspected twice a week and checked for... oh, hang on...

Seconded.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: eletheia

Are you sure? How regulated are the places it happens? How often are they inspected, and can the public access the results of said inspections? If so, that's a far cry from here. Inspections are often not done, and bad clinics operate for years with no one in authority seeming to care.

Statistics cannot be obtained here because the abortion industry won't allow it. They hide behind a curtain or "privacy"
that would have served the Wizard well.

Some do, some don't. How do you believe that is relevant to this discussion?

A newborn baby, left alone, cannot survive. Being helpless doesn't mean one is any less human. Do you support killing the severely disabled as well?

It's legal, but it's still murder. That will be acknowledged by all one day. That, I guarantee.

I AM SURE ....

We in the UK have a National Health Service (NHS) which covers
every ones health/medical needs ... inc. abortions.

There are private clinics too, which have to be paid for. However
the same doctors/surgeons preside over both. The only
difference in treatment is that the NHS does what is
required/necessary and the clinics provide the equivalent to
5* treatment .... I have used both so I am speaking from experience.

The UK doesn't have "an abortion industry" .... Just a need and
the solution. Prior to the legality of abortion I know of several
cases of "bungled back street attempts" which were corrected
by our NHS.

It is relevant because it is the subject under discussion isn't it??

A 'new born' left alone will survive because of humanity
and the fact that it can now breathe for its self and has
matured to the extent where it no longer requires the (host)
mother.

Whilst writing this it has just brought to mind an incident that
happened a few years ago, a 'new born' was found early one
morning by a paper delivery boy behind my house, just
wrapped in a blanket, and it was taken in by the relevant
authorities ..... So you see 'new borns can and do
survive without the mother(host) but a foetus couldn't.

Do point out to me any where, where I have said anything
about the disabled ... and their right to life.

If it was murder it would be illegal and therefor a crime.
But it is neither!

I fail to see how you are in a position to guarantee that
in the future anything will change!!

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Arresting any and all that participate in killing the unborn is a better solution. Treat it like any other murder. Clear enough for you?

And...there it is.

You don't care about how safe abortion are or if the clinics are clean and inspected regularly. You want all abortions banned as well as all contraceptive methods that prevent implantation like the PILL, IUDs and the Morning After Pills.

a reply to: JuniorDisco

Since you seem determined to pretend responses I gave, upon which you commented, weren't given, I won't be responding to you at all from this point forward, unless you want to discuss something else.

originally posted by: eletheia
A 'new born' left alone will survive because of humanity
and the fact that it can now breathe for its self and has
matured to the extent where it no longer requires the (host)
mother.

Oh, really? So all the newborns left alone in a room to die after an abortion failed to kill them should have lived? What nonsense!

originally posted by: eletheia
Whilst writing this it has just brought to mind an incident that
happened a few years ago, a 'new born' was found early one
morning by a paper delivery boy behind my house, just
wrapped in a blanket, and it was taken in by the relevant
authorities ..... So you see 'new borns can and do
survive without the mother(host) but a foetus couldn't.

That child was found, and attended. Unattended, the child would have died, and we both know it. The baby only survived with care from others, that it could not possibly provide for itself.

originally posted by: eletheia
Do point out to me any where, where I have said anything
about the disabled ... and their right to life.

You claim that surviving alone is the criteria to be considered human. Many disabled people cannot survive alone.

originally posted by: eletheia
I fail to see how you are in a position to guarantee that
in the future anything will change!!

I am not the one that guarantees it, but that day WILL come. Count on it.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Arresting any and all that participate in killing the unborn is a better solution. Treat it like any other murder. Clear enough for you?

And...there it is.

You don't care about how safe abortion are or if the clinics are clean and inspected regularly. You want all abortions banned as well as all contraceptive methods that prevent implantation like the PILL, IUDs and the Morning After Pills.

I have stated that plainly many times. You have commented to me on it in other threads, so why the surprise here? Yes, they should all be banned. Yes, those methods should be as well. Clear enough? My position isn't a secret. If all that was allowed were REAL cases of harm to the mother, or rape, I could deal, though.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Arresting any and all that participate in killing the unborn is a better solution. Treat it like any other murder. Clear enough for you?

And...there it is.

You don't care about how safe abortion are or if the clinics are clean and inspected regularly. You want all abortions banned as well as all contraceptive methods that prevent implantation like the PILL, IUDs and the Morning After Pills.

I have stated that plainly many times. You have commented to me on it in other threads, so why the surprise here? Yes, they should all be banned. Yes, those methods should be as well. Clear enough? My position isn't a secret. If all that was allowed were REAL cases of harm to the mother, or rape, I could deal, though.

And I still find your position to be horribly unrealistic. There will always be demand for abortions. I don't like it, but it's still going to happen. And banning it is horribly dangerous. As I have said before you'll just drive it underground and make it unbelievably dangerous.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: JuniorDisco

Since you seem determined to pretend responses I gave, upon which you commented, weren't given, I won't be responding to you at all from this point forward, unless you want to discuss something else.

You haven't given an answer. That's not a pretence on my part, it's quite plain. You need to lie about this because your argument is built on sand.

And you know what Jesus said about that

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Right. You start threads that are based on untrue premises and you feign concern for the health and safety of women who are getting abortions. But really, you don't care about them or their plights, you would try them for murder and jail them. Your agenda is all about making contraception and abortion illegal and shaming women who don't conform to your Victorian morality.

They're Coming For Your Birth Control!