Hillsborough Inquests "Uncontroversial Facts"

I need advice.

The Liverpool Echo, ITV News and Eagle Radio have all reported the Hillsborough inquests will resume today with "uncontroversial facts". They all put "uncontroversial facts" in quotes.

Facts are facts. Specifying "uncontroversial" suggests to me the controllers of the inquest want to leave out relevant facts because they will cause controversy or public disagreement. If we can't disagree how are we going to come to an agreement?

It's reasonable to deduce from the train of events that Hillsborough was a deliberate black operation. It was used at the time to ease the introduction of the corporation known as Premier League Football. It is being used now as a political instrument against the constables in an attempt to ease our acceptance of the replacement, elite-worshipping private police. Take your pick.

When it comes to identifying who operated the black operation on the ground, facts are facts.

Can anyone shed some light on this? Why the term "uncontroversial facts" in quotes? Is there some innocent explanation that doesn't require severe mental gymnastics to understand?

originally posted by: Kester

Is there some innocent explanation that doesn't require severe mental gymnastics to understand?

Yes: Utter incompetence on the part of the police, followed by their desperate efforts to cover this fact up. Please don't denigrate the memory of those who died there with a theory of a 'black operation'.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

There is no denigration in seeking the truth.

Failure to investigate the Walter Jackson cover-up is denigration of the memory.

You're right facts are facts, but some facts are more controversial, for instance if they are based on eye-witness accounts or leading to blame attribution. If he's just describing the lay-out of the stadium or the content of previous enquiries there's not much scope for argument against what he will say. This is just one day of evidence though, I'd expect some controversial truths will be mentioned in future statements.

originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

There is no denigration in seeking the truth.

Failure to investigate the Walter Jackson cover-up is denigration of the memory.

But isn't that what's happening now? We know what happened, Jackson himself has apologised. Personally speaking I think that they need to be properly chastised for their incompetence and inexcusable misconduct.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

I think you must have Jackson mixed up with Duckenfield. Jackson was Dukenfield's superior but just 'happened' to be at the match while 'off duty'. I suspect half the reason tapes from the control box went missing is they may show some indication of Jackson in uniform taking command before the crush.

Allegedly Jackson was under the table in the control room apparently experiencing a temporary mental breakdown. This is said to be main reason for the fatal lack of police leadership during the crush. One of the alleged witnesses to this was Winton Cooper the sports presenter. He was brutally murdered, allegedly by his own son, shortly before the Hillsborough inquiry re-opened.

So the man they tell you was in charge isn't the man witnesses claim was in charge who allegedly then went into a psychotic state of such intensity it rendered the police control room inoperable.

Individuals will be held accountable for their misconduct.

originally posted by: twfau
....based on eye-witness accounts....

The tapes went walkabout. Something must explain the lack of instructions from the well equipped police control room. A photograph I saw today showed a constable looking around as if waiting for instructions. In the absence of any better explanation the Walter Jackson story fits the bill.

We've heard about threats to prosecute witnesses for wasting police time if they talked about the lack of police leadership. Imagine what threats they are capable of making against their own? It's not surprising the non-murdered witness shut his door in Tony Farrell's face.

You have a very valid point but can I counteract it by asking what do we have other than eyewitness accounts to validate what did happen in the control room leading to the fatal lack of leadership?

a reply to: Kester

Why is there total silence from Liverpool regarding The Heysel Stadium disaster, resulting in the death of 39 Juventus supporters?
Would anyone care to enlighten me?

a reply to: alldaylong

You're question has only one answer from my point of view, and for people of a certain way of thinking this may be the clincher.

Hillsborough was a terrible black operation carried out for a mixture of commercial and political motives. In order to have the political effect required we all need to be softened up. There's your answer. It's a massive media psyop.

Heysel apparently isn't so it doesn't get the massive backing that Hillsborough does.

The most shameful thing about Hillsborough is the deliberate creation and use of a group of mourners. I hear them scream in anguish as I say that and I can only apologise.

A quick comparison of the google results for both disasters says it all. It isn't Liverpool in silence about Heysel, it's the corporate/entertainment media.

Calling all big time Liverpool musicians! Write a Heysel song! Prove you aren't a sellout..... Oh wait....

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: Kester

Why is there total silence from Liverpool regarding The Heysel Stadium disaster, resulting in the death of 39 Juventus supporters?
Would anyone care to enlighten me?

Why is that relevant here?

originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: alldaylong

You're question has only one answer from my point of view, and for people of a certain way of thinking this may be the clincher.

Hillsborough was a terrible black operation carried out for a mixture of commercial and political motives. In order to have the political effect required we all need to be softened up. There's your answer. It's a massive media psyop.

Heysel apparently isn't so it doesn't get the massive backing that Hillsborough does.

The most shameful thing about Hillsborough is the deliberate creation and use of a group of mourners. I hear them scream in anguish as I say that and I can only apologise.

A quick comparison of the google results for both disasters says it all. It isn't Liverpool in silence about Heysel, it's the corporate/entertainment media.

Calling all big time Liverpool musicians! Write a Heysel song! Prove you aren't a sellout..... Oh wait....

I think this articles sums up many peoples feelings:-

www.cfcnet.co.uk...

a reply to: Kester

Wait, one minute you claim that the guy in charge had a mental breakdown on the spot and the next minute you claim that it was a black operation, based on no evidence whatsoever. Which one is it?

Believe me Liverpool fans are not quiet about Heysel, how can they be when they're frequently called murderers by people who are only saying it because they support opposing football teams?

There is a Heysel memorial at Liverpool, and on the 20th anniversary Liverpool made many attempts at building bridges particularly in the Liverpool - Juventus game which happened at the time. The Juventus fans understandably turned their backs on them as it's not really a bridge to build.

I'm not sure what else people expect the club to do, the larger scale memorials happen at Juventus, just like you wont' find Hillsborough memorials at Nottingham Forest or Sheffield Wednesday.

Also, the reason Hillsborough is such big news is due to the mass police and media corruption that occurred afterwards, the revelations from the inquest have a nationwide effect. To me it's the largest proven conspiracy of the last two decades. In comparison the Heysel disaster was dealt with through extradition and criminal charges and there was no large conspiracy present. You can make a better case for justice having been served after Heysel, than for Hillsborough.

Why does Chelsea FC even have a hypocrite of the year article?

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

The apparent mental breakdown reported by two witnesses, one now deceased, was a staged affair to coincide with the flush of fans pouring into the already packed crowd. This was to fool and occupy the other police in the control room who were not in on the plot. In this way the control box was neutralised.

It has been known since the 40's as a result of an inquiry into a similar crush that all that's needed are one or two additional influences for an uncomfortable crush to become multiple fatalities. They just practised with the badly designed stadium then threw in the one or two additional influences. Look at how it's being used as an emotional tool in the media. They aren't asking the hard questions.

The intended operation was to crank up what had been practised many times over and create 30 to 40 grieving families. When the barrier broke unexpectedly the death toll mounted rapidly. The one thing these type of operations all have in common is they always go horribly wrong.

Hate to disagree with you old chap but basing it on piecing together the entire story including observing how it is being used as an emotional tool against the nation is hardly basing it on no evidence whatsoever.

originally posted by: twfau



just like you wont' find Hillsborough memorials at Nottingham Forest or Sheffield Wednesday.

There is a memorial at Sheffield Wednesday:-

www.doingthe92plus.co.uk...

a reply to: twfau

You obviously totally know your stuff. Since you are so well versed can you take it as a compliment if I repeat my question. What do we have as evidence for what occurred in the police control room?

You're right of course it's the corruption aspect that's making big news. One objective of the Hillsborough operation was to encourage a shoddy cover-up that could be used as a weapon of shame at this point in the attempted privatisation of policing.

I trust you are aware the private financiers and their pet politicians wish for a private police force who will protect them from us should the storm break. I prefer the equal handed constables such as those we are privileged to have here in Gloucestershire.

Thanks, the report mentions it quite a lot, it's about 390 pages long but worth the read if you're interested. At around page 98 it says "The Police Control Room log book for 15 April 1989 began at 8am but there was no entry beyond 2.21pm. Consequently information about much of what happened at the time of the disaster is derived from statements, interviews conducted by WMP for the criminal investigation and evidence presented to the Taylor Inquiry." If you start reading from there you'll find quite a few mentions of what happened in the control room.

Independent Panel Report

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: twfau



just like you wont' find Hillsborough memorials at Nottingham Forest or Sheffield Wednesday.

There is a memorial at Sheffield Wednesday:-

www.doingthe92plus.co.uk...

My mistake, although it's the equivalent of what Liverpool do for Heysel.

a reply to: Kester

The phrase 'uncontroversial facts' has been highlighted enough by the media that I only googled it from your OP to find the articles. Quick tip: add links next time.

From the articles, it seems like the next stage will be dealing with the bare facts about stadium design, public spaces, numbers of emergency services and so forth. These are the structural and statistical 'facts' that are not controversial.

The 'controversial facts' will come later on in the inquest when all the BS will come out and heads should roll. Some of those involved in the displacing of blame onto Liverpool supporters should face criminal charges.

a reply to: twfau

Thank you. Statements, interviews and log book entries about what occurred in the control box presumably come from those we are charging with a cover-up. i.e. lying. I would like to see actual evidence proving what occurred.

On April the 1st in the Mirror we find... "South Yorkshire Assistant Chief Constable Walter Jackson, who was off duty in the director’s box, confronted Duckenfield and demanded to know what had happened." - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

In the report you linked we have this...
2.2.52 Supt Murray and C/Supt Duckenfield arrived at the Police Control Box at approximately 1.50pm. ACC Jackson arrived soon after 2pm. He remarked that more Nottingham Forest fans appeared to be in evidence than Liverpool fans. He left the Control Box at approximately 2.15pm and took his seat in the Directors’ Box at 2.35pm.

So Jackson is off duty yet in the control box followed by the directors box then...
2.2.87 ACC Jackson then went to consult Supt Greenwood and other officers. He understood from Supt Greenwood that he was dealing with ‘a crushing incident’. On a brief walk around the stadium ACC Jackson did not visit pens 3 and 4 before returning to the Control Box where, as he later described, the atmosphere was ‘hyped up quite considerably, and lots of things were happening’. He ‘considered that [he] was in command of a major, a major, developing major incident’.

So this 'off duty' cop who happens to be a football fan unfortunate enough to be at a major incident now considers himself to be in command. And this same 'off duty' cop was allegedly witnessed having an apparent mental breakdown in the control box by two witnesses, one of them a sports presenter subsequently murdered just as mass public interest was being re-awakened.

We've heard many reports of lack of communication with the control box during the time in question. I've often felt there's a strong need for independent covert cctv within cctv control rooms not least because of the perving that goes on. Before anyone asks me how I know that I've spent a lot of time investigating the surveillance industry. Manufacture, distribution and use of surveillance equipment has attracted a high proportion of criminal perverts. I had collected a number of cuttings from a major trade magazine to illustrate the point but I discarded them when I realised it looked like a creepy collection.

Let's remember we're dealing with people we're accusing of telling the most awful lies, it seem silly to take their word for anything. Though it's difficult to find fault with Jacksons description of activities within the control box. '...lots of things were happening.' Now there's concise reporting from a highly trained observer.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Thank you. I do tire of the links that don't work. Google is so easy to use.

Interestingly a google news search of the exact phrase "uncontroversial facts" only turns up the recent Hillsborough stories. There are no other "uncontroversial facts" deemed worthy of mention anywhere else in world current affairs. A general google search still turns up mainly Hillsborough on the first page with ATS naturally near the top. "Uncontroversial facts" doesn't appear to be a phrase often needed.

While I appreciate your point I feel sure some of the bare facts you refer to could be controversial. The history of the barrier that failed for example.

The grossly unjust blame laid on the supporters cannot be beneficially transferred onto any other group. This has to be about individual responsibility. The main purpose of this black operation is to collectively blame the constables so we would be more easily led into the private police hell the private financiers need for their survival.