To Baptise Or Not To Baptise

a reply to: lambs to lions

originally posted by: lambs to lions
a reply to: WakeUpBeer
What inconsistencies are you referring to exactly?

I did some searching and, I don't really want to go in depth on this subject in this thread so I will just suggest doing some Google searches to see what other people are saying. It's no doubt a hot button with some people and I don't want to risk starting something, particularly because I'm not invested in one side or the other. If you do decide to do some research however, I would be interested in your thoughts perhaps via PM. If not no problem! Either way,

Take care

I'm a firm believer in sticking to your beliefs. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it! Don't cave into social pressures. Changes in society begin with YOU, you can't rely on others to make the changes for you, so if you want to break this dogmatic practice then spearhead the way.
Harm doesn't come from the ceremony itself. It comes from the people around you who make the choices to be intolerable a-holes. Your child's mates aren't the ones making the conscious choice to ostracize him. It's the parents teaching them that's how they should react.

I applaud your choice to let your child decide for themselves once they become old enough to understand.

I don't think there is any reason to baptize an infant. I think baptism should be something a person chooses for themselves which implies a certain maturity.

However, on this issue I will say this: Be sure when you are making this decision that your son is truly the one who is first in your heart, and not your own thwarted issues or desires. It's a grand thing to stand on principle, but it's one thing to stand on principle when the consequences are going to be felt by you and you accept that, and it's another when your innocent son could suffer for it.

I'm not saying you should compromise your principles, but I am saying you better be sure that any possible price (and I'm talking social, not spiritual) your child may wind up paying is worth it. You can heap scorn on all those people all you want, but understand that you child will still feel the hurt all the same.

a reply to: Snarl

I'll take your post with the cheerful intent in which it was given, and apprentice my eldest child to a Wizard immediately.

I'm kidding of course, but frankly - that's how silly this all sounds to me.

I do appreciate your reply however, but my experience has been the opposite of yours. Frankly - I find the notion that the creator of this multiverse deliberately built into it the concept of original sin -- as a way to trap and destroy its own creation -- both philosophically (morally) repugnant and intellectually bankrupt.

That's not to say that I don't look towards a prime mover / first maker / creator in my own way, because I do. I just don't believe *any* of our earthly faiths represent this force at all, in any way, shape or form.

originally posted by: lambs to lions
a reply to: pheonix358

The Church doesn't charge for baptism. What are you talking about? I am Catholic, I attend Catholic mass. I've seen dozens of baptisms including all of my children. Never once have I ever witnessed or heard about anyone being charged a fee for the rite of baptism.

If you have evidence otherwise I would like to see it, really...it would be an absolute tragedy for that to happen.

My three sons were baptized, cost about a days pay for each one. C of E in Australia.

For the Catholic Church it is $75.00, it is called a Stole Donation.

LINK

It costs to be a Christian

P

a reply to: seabhac-rua

All i can say to you Sir is you are doing the right thing by yourself and your child and no one has the rihght to tell you otherwise. Its weak willed and pathetic that people cling to these archaic traditions that no one actually puts any real belief in anymore, they are just hipocrits and sheep who dont know any better.

My father was raised strict cactholic and hated his parents for forcing it on him, i did my communion at the request of my father for my grandparents benefit, not mine at all, and he gave me the choice to do it and explained i didnt have to, it was all rubbish but it would make my grandparents happy and shut them up, so i did it. It was my last association with any kind of religeous institution, 12 years old. and i havent looked back except to shake my head and laugh at how rediculous it all is.

Stay true to yourself and your son, he's in good hands with a dad like you.

I numbered your paragraphs to more easily respond.

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: Snarl

1. I'll take your post with the cheerful intent in which it was given, and apprentice my eldest child to a Wizard immediately.

2. I'm kidding of course, but frankly - that's how silly this all sounds to me.

3. I do appreciate your reply however, but my experience has been the opposite of yours. Frankly - I find the notion that the creator of this multiverse deliberately built into it the concept of original sin -- as a way to trap and destroy its own creation -- both philosophically (morally) repugnant and intellectually bankrupt.

4. That's not to say that I don't look towards a prime mover / first maker / creator in my own way, because I do. I just don't believe *any* of our earthly faiths represent this force at all, in any way, shape or form.

1. LOL That's just plain funny ... until he takes his tasking seriously and exceeds you. Then it's embarrassing (but not really ... if you catch up).

2. It all sounded silly to me too. Being 'shown' makes a difference. I think this is what the story of Jesus is all about. Notice I said story.

3. The concept of original sin ... I'm not buying into that one. I think that's all made-up by guys who wanted to make the practice of creating spiritually aware people a full-time paying job. I can't blame 'em, 'cause everybody's gotta eat. There's no crime in being gullible, and the gullible are taken advantage of constantly.

4. About the Earthly Faiths ... that's what I was alluding to. I think each and every one has something to offer. The truth and the way are buried and veiled. I seriously doubt any 'preacher' really knows what he's looking at other than the words on the paper. If they would get away from the fear-mongering and teach the truth, we wouldn't see anywhere near the negativity and rejection you can go back through this thread and see with your own eyes. Of course ... there'd be hardly anyone tithing at the offering plate, because they'd know they don't have to go to church anymore. See?

FWIW, you and I are not far apart at all. I've got a step or two on you is all. And, believe it or not, what I've spoken to you about is not far from the teachings of the New Testament (like I said, all faiths have something to offer). The Truth is what it is. We can't change that. We either accept or refuse. Free will is cool that way, ain't it?

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: lambs to lions

I don't refuse to listen, I have listened all my life and I have made my decision.

If baptism is not as I describe it then why is it done to infants traditionally?

You asked a very good question. Please follow the link and scroll down to Baptism and then look at what is said in the subcatagory of "of infants." If you have general questions about Baptism you can look at the other subcatagories. Thie is the index to the Cathecism of the Catholic Church.

www.vatican.va...

a reply to: Snarl

Take as many steps as you need, sir! I begrudge you nothing.

I'm a big believer in the whole "love your neighbor" thing. I just loathe everything that isn't specifically the red words. You might say I am anti-Paul, and therefore -- anti-Christian. But that's probably pushing it. I'm more of the "let live" type of guy anyway, if you don't get up in my face about it. The rubber meets the road when I am told I must do something because it is traditional, or part of the culture, or any of that garbage.

There are lots of things modern civilized humans forgo in order to maintain a veneer of modernity and civilization. In addition to not baptizing my children, I have also sworn off throttling the obnoxiously self-righteous. Its better for my blood pressure anyway.

You might say that I "turn the other cheek" so long as I don't get poked a second time.

a reply to: lambs to lions

Catholics will baptize at any age, because it follows the teachings of Jesus Christ...and the Catholics are very traditional with their beliefs. -

Where did any of the messages of Jesus Christ pertain to infant baptism....thats a new one on me.
I think you must be a catholic where reading of the bible is actually discouraged

I'm with you OP. Being baptized is basically just a religious ritual. It doesn't really do anything in reality. All you do is sprinkle a bit of "holy" water on your head. Whoop-dee-do. I guess it's a cute little metaphor/symbol. But I personally don't understand how it should be taken seriously.

I highly doubt that a higher power would demand people to carry out a trivial ritual or be doomed forever. Seems outright silly if you ask me. So many different religions have so many different rules/rituals that they do. Some need to wear a certain kind of hat, dress in specific clothes, eat a certain food on a certain day, don't eat at all on a certain day, don't eat a certain food ever, be given gifts on a certain day, worship on a certain day, et cetera.

Why does any of this stuff even matter? Go ahead and create/carryout your own family traditions if you want, makes no difference to me. But when you sit there and say that everyone should do a certain thing, at a certain time and place, in the name of god, it just comes off rather redundant. I hardly think god is going to get incredibly angry over a guy who decided a pork chop was a tasty thing to eat (or anything else in between for that matter.)

a reply to: seabhac-rua

If you do not follow the Catholic faith and do not plan to bring him up with a Catholic Christian background, do not baptize him, it will be doing a disservice to him, yourself and the Church.

Don't let people pressure you into doing something that is not meant to be,

and God bless you and your child

a reply to: seabhac-rua

My nephews are christened as Catholics with the most recent being Easter Sunday. For them, it's a tactical as well as being traditional and social. Nobody actually gives a rat's ass about the meaning behind the ceremony.

They'll both get into a better school and their mum gets credit from the school where she teaches. The families are all happy and there's a sense of continuity that each generation follows a thread.

Of course, my own family is originally Irish and were Catholic back in the 19th Century - none of us are religious today. My great-great grandfather's brother died without receiving the last rites and wasn't allowed burial in the local cemetery. That pissed him off and they moved to Liverpool and renounced Catholicism and switched to Protestant. On my mother's side, her great-great grandmother was a Protestant and the great-great grandfather was Catholic so they also legged it to Liverpool to start fresh without religion.

So yeah, religion can suck, but the traditions that bind aren't so bad.

You pose an interesting topic. My opinion may not be of use, but it may.

I was baptised - It hasn't caused any harm.

Now, I agree with you that the problem lies with Baptism being something that "you just do" because "you should" ... It's become a little bit of a pointless exercise when done for this reason really.

I was baptised and raised in a Catholic family (I know this might differ slightly) however my Father wasn't and neither were his parents. This NEVER stopped my father from being supportive of my mothers right to practice her faith. He took us and dropped us off at church every week to meet my grandparents (my mothers parents) and was more than happy to do this for us. Me and my older brother had gone through the catholic school system until we moved to high/secondary school. My father never once complained.

His mother was extremely supportive of my mother raising me and my brother as Catholics. So much so she encouraged my dad to convert - He didn't... I'm not 100% sure why, as I was little more than a potato with arms, legs and a soft head at the time. Point is, he didn't - but he never stopped us or made any comment about us being Catholics. He was a believer and had his faith though, which was always nice that he related.

I lost him at 12, and held his funeral in our Catholic church. A place he had happily dropped us off every weekend all mine and my brothers lives. It was a nice send off, Catholic or not, and he never let our differing religions get in the way or hinder our relationship even 1%. For that, i'm eternally grateful. - It's times like this that you realise it's not what religion you are that matters - It's the faith you have and the person you are.

The moral of my story? Don't let it get in the way too much. Don't let it cause so much anger and annoyance. You raise your child how you feel is best. But remember that the child also holds a special place in everyone else in your family's heart too. I know it can be tricky - but try not to let it affect your family life - that's just as important to a child as a baptism.

My thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread.

I've just been too busy lately to sit down and reply to your comments.

Cheers.

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: lambs to lions

I don't refuse to listen, I have listened all my life and I have made my decision.

If baptism is not as I describe it then why is it done to infants traditionally?

I was raised in a multi-religious home. My grandmother was born on a reservation in Arizona, but was introduced to Catholicism by a missionary. My grandfather was Jewish. My mom was raised as a Catholic. My father was raised as a Baptist. My nine siblings and myself were all baptized in the Catholic church and christened in the Baptist church. Why? Because it was “tradition”. Ritual is sometimes family based, sometimes community based, sometimes both.

My mother told us repeatedly as we were growing up that religion is a personal choice and she took us to church with her because she liked having her children with her. Sometimes we would go to both churches. Catholic mass was always at sunrise and we often walked home after Mass, had breakfast, and would go to church with my father. When we got older we would chose one or the other, or not go to either. When we were old enough to stay home alone, we could chose, and we were never forced to make one.
Baptism does not make a person a Catholic or even religious. Your children will make their own choice when the time comes.

You are just starting your family. You will develop many family rituals. The first rituals you establish are usually based on religions and holidays, because those are the events were families most often make time to gather and to be together. Some family traditions go on generation after generation. Some may only last a generation or two and may not be shared. The rituals you develop will be unique to your family and your children will likely pass on a few as a way to maintain your legacy.

Ritual and tradition are nothing more than a way that families share their love and their time with each other. They can also be tools used to divide and destroy. The choice is completely yours, and no one can tell you what is right for you. You are likely to have more than one battle with family over the coming years. You will grow quite weary and cause great rifts if you fail to choose your battles wisely.

For what it is worth coming from an old broad.

www.bible.ca...

Baptism, goes waaaaaaaay back.

a reply to: seabhac-rua

Reading this a bit late, but wanted to comment. I don't think you should alter your decision, and allow a bunch of bullies to force you to do something with your child that you don't want to do. All religious considerations aside, that attitude from so many is seriously horrid. The very people claiming the child would feel "left out" are the ones that would see to it the child did feel that way. There is no way I would cave in to such nasty behavior.

On the issue of baptism, that was never intended, in the Bible, to be something forced on anyone. It's meant to be a public profession of faith, that one chooses when they are old enough to make a decision on their faith, or lack thereof. In my own culture, the practice with babies is for the parents, if they choose, to simply dedicate the child to God; pray for the child, and basically state that they will teach the child about faith. Any decision, though, from said child, is still a personal one. Clearly, I am not Catholic.

In any case, forcing someone to do such a thing as these folks are trying to do is wrong. Certainly, no matter how one feels about baptism, that isn't what God intended! He gives us the ability to choose.

originally posted by: brandiwine14
Good for you.

I wholeheartedly believe it is the child's choice, free will right? well you take their choice away from them when you baptize them without their permission.

I did not baptize either of my children but will gladly be with them if they choose to do so themselves. I also flatly refused to allow my daughters ears to be pierced when she was a baby, her choice to be marked, not mine or her fathers. Luckily my husband agrees but his dad wanted us to baptize them and the grandma wanted my daughters ears pierced, but we explained our take on it and did not hear too much moaning over it.

If the child chooses to be baptized later on in life it will be that much more meaningful.

I agree. My own kids have all been baptized, but when they chose to be, based on their beliefs, not when I or any other adult chose for them.

On the ear piercing, you are correct as well. I didn't pierce the ears of any of my girls (I have three), and they all made different decisions. The oldest has several piercings in each ear. The youngest has one hole per. The middle girl has none, and wants none. Piercing her ears as a child would have been a dreadful disservice to her. Same with baptism at a very young age.

a reply to: seabhac-rua

I was never baptised...and my dear mum always lamented the fact that I hadn't been early on. She has since passed and some days I feel like I should just for her...to put her soul at rest. BUT my mind goes to every good person on this earth of other religions who don't get baptised. I can't accept the idea that those folks won't get to heaven simply because they believe something else. If you're good and kind...then in a fair world you should go to heaven or whatever good place comes next. I simply cannot believe in a petty god who kicks you out even though you are a good and kind person.