An ATS Jew looks at Anti-Semitism, Israel the de-facto Apartheid State, and Palestinian Rights

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Reagrdless of how serious you are about birth control and Muslim women, I suspect that is a matter of culture for the women and, many women love large families b ecause it extends their usefulness. Some women are left with a slight feeling of sadness once their families have grown up and their role as a mother, although never really finished is diminished.

The problem of numbers could be got over as far as the voting is concerned I agree, whether tht would be acceptable of whether people would wish for proportional representation is something that might raise up its head.

The Palestinians who would wish to return to Israel are a situation Israel has to deal with at some time. Leaving it in the hope that people will simply forget about it won't do with people, who link their lives to the ground they were born on and have lived for generations. Its the other side of the Jewish argument for wanting to live in Palestine so, in fact a mutual understanding seems not to have prevailed. Hopefully though perhaps more land can be granted by a neighbour to allow the relocation and integration of these people back into their homeland . I suspect money would pour into a project like this because of the peace it would help to bring into that area - whether people like the Saudi's support this idea or not. Money invested in water and infrastructure would only benefit Israel and all her people.

I also think that honest debate is more important than your desire to 'hold people to account' for their views. I see your attitude on this as the weapon of reverse psychology, simply because you have taken the view that the German people who suffered from near starvation etc as sympathy for a political party; yet you say one should separate the state/government from the people, but when it comes to the ordinary German people, they should all be classed as National socialists/the German Government. You forget that Germans who opposed Hitler were also murdered and imprisoned in the camps and killed.

If any of us want change to happen in our world one of the best ways is to debate and discuss those issues that are the kinder to a world fire which nobody wants. The more the politicians realise that they don't have the public behind them, the more they are likely to realise they cannot allow policies that the public won't support, change can happen and this is the benefit of the net because it puts politicians in touch with public feeling better than any poll etc.

sandf OP

divide and conquer redux- BALKANISM, and the false flag

oddly enough not once has any one of the religious icons that everybody uses as the basis for the classification of division ever appeared as real
not once
not freakin once

and until those baby idiocies are cast off by everyone are you going to get any sense out of this debate.
oh...also:
throw every two bit money worshipping nobster and oligarch hiding behind the curtain in jail for ever

jew christian muslim israeli palistinian and american or european or what ever:
all imposed definitions that are arbitrary and I'm going to use the S word here judging by the fruits if it:
pure STUPID

this is about an INSANE lust for power money land and sexual perversion regarding children pure and simple, justified by any old BS that a culprit can come up with;

who cares if it leads to extinction

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: buster2010

The one state solution will never work. Whose state will it be Israeli or Palestinian? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

What about a federated two state system with an Israeli knesset and a Palestinian parliament? There could be defined areas of authority without borders and checkpoints. The illegal settlements on the West Bank would be administered by the Palestinian government, and Arabs living inside the 1947 border would be under Israeli administration. Each could feel they had their own "homeland" while working together to form a powerful democratic bloc in a region not known for its democratic institutions.

You actually think two forms of government would work in one state? What you are saying is no different than the two state solution.

a reply to: buster2010
That's exactly how I feel.

And Israel holds cards only because the US taxpayers gave them the cards to hold.
One state solution is an insult. The Europeans must leave before there will ever be peace. What I don't understand is why many governments around the world don't come together and fund the Palestinians the same way. They have just been left out in the cold with no help. How long will the world stand by and watch the atrocities there? Israel displays the same behavior as the Nazis. All the spying that they do........it's just too much as a whole.

It's too late for an agreement. No so-called solution is going to change anything in that part of the world. Israel will have to nuke someone to make progress and that will also bite them in the arse.

a reply to: cuckooold

Thank you for making the point that not all Jews are Zionists. For the most part, I agree with your Op, but I dont believe Israel has any authority to exist in Palestine. The claim to the Promised Land is a theological argument that shouldnt hold up in a court of law. God dispersed His people, and told them that the Messiah would personally regather them. I dont see the Messiah, so what are Jews doing forcing their way into Palestinian territory.

The modern Political State of Israel is a monument to the lack of faith in the hearts of the occupying Jews.

a reply to: Shiloh7

Well, since I am a Muslim woman myself, I think I best understand the thinking of Muslim women in general. I have an afghani freind who wanted 5 children, and had those 5 and stopped at that because of access to birth control. Many Muslim women would love to control the amount of children they have, but access to birth control is a contributing factor in why many do not. Some don't for religious reasons, but most Muslim women do not fall into that category for their list of reasons btw.

I agree that at some point the issue of Palestinians who would wish to go back who cannot do so at current moment should be solved... and you made an interesting suggestion. Hopefully others will make other suggestions and someday we can find a solution to the problem.

As far as your comments stating I am "holding people to account for their views" and the statement indicating I am not debating and discussing the topic... well... quite frankly.... you lost me on that. I am more than willing to discuss and I have not held anyone accountable for the actions of their government... so... perhaps you can explain what you are trying to get at with those last two paragraphs?

Criticism of Israels Talmudic policies towards the World is rather hilarious. Any criticism of Israel's policies or silly little things like questioning the Holocaust can net you in a prison cell around various countries in the world. Funny isn't it? You can actually be arrested for questioning History.

Antisemitism is great because of one thing; A fine layer of protection. Israel's policies towards people in Gaza are completely protected by Antisemitism. It's almost impossible to seriously criticize Israel without risking your social life and career.

Unintelligent half wits and zombies (that comprise most of America's population unfortunately) generally regard Israel as a friend and a worthy ally. This is because they have been taught in school about the horrible things that were done to Jews, and some even believe that these people in Israel are the Chosen People of God.


I always cringe very hard at the site of someone enraging unconsciously at the sight of "Antisemitism". It's like people have a small capsule in their brain that releases a small toxin every time someone criticizes Israel.

Or they view the people in Israel higher then themselves because they are an inferior, sub species of people that is there to serve the Chosen People of God.

a reply to: buster2010

You actually think two forms of government would work in one state? What you are saying is no different than the two state solution.

Read closely: what I am proposing is essentially a free trade zone with well defined regions of sovereignty, but regional federalism. Sort of a mini-EU.

a reply to: cuckooold

Let me get this straight....

You grew up in the ole USA, in New York!

Yet, somehow, you spew an entire thread on ATS, about a place you have never lived in before.

Have you ever lived in Israel or west bank or gaza?

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I am sorry when I answered your post and made the point about Muslims outbreeding the Jewish population in Israel, I must have suddenly thought you were Cuckoold, the thread originator.

The paragraphs about people using freedom of speech to say what they thought, was replying to his comment that people should be 'held accountable' for any comment that showed consideration for the German people's plight of near starvation after WW1 as its presumably anti semetic, although I don't see it that way.

However , going back to the discussion on a Two State, or future Israel etc, I did notice that you did not make any comment on the point that the current government in Israel could well regard the fact that Muslim families are often very much larger than Jewish ones and so the Muslims would inevitably outbreed the Jewish people at some stage and so gain politically power in Israel/Palestine which could stop them working for an integrated Israel and maintaining the status quo..

Excellent thread, with many possible approaches opened by your statement.

This antisemitism you speak of is undoubtedly a problem, but really more of a symptom of broader social and moral upheaval in the larger picture. One of the important issues has to do with the various groups and how they operate in all societies. I think most generally every society is led by small, politically cohesive groups with very narrow sociopolitical agendas.

One of the observations would be the neoconservatives controlling US policy (as you mentioned) who decided that it was time to take control of policy for a shift toward the new preemptive security doctrine, which of course dictates perpetual war as a necessity - along with its perceived regional advantages as the rationale. This course has been led by a small group of extreme right wing political elites, who wanted to secure cheap oil reserves and broaden the political foot print in the region, while posing a direct threat to Iran (surrounding Iran with US military bases). On an ideological scale, this same group was noted for its belief that a first nuclear strike against Russia would be winnable.

In the case of Israel, we saw a similar policy shift after WWII in security which necessitated military aggressiveness along with political alliances through various forms of intimidation, not excluding an open threat of nuclear war.

The point is that in post WWII Israel, the political climate that led to this paradigm shift in both internal aggression (as mainly an ethnic cleansing policy to expand into Arab territories) and externally through intimidation and alliances, was pressed by European Jewish ideologues, who became departmental ministers, military commanders and heads of state (i.e. Ariel Sharon and others). On that point I will say that it is critical to note that before European ideology migrated to Israel after WWII, Jews and Muslims inhabited the same neighborhoods and married one another. Muslims risked their lives in Nazi controlled Morocco, harboring Jews attempting to get out of Europe.

As the neocons have lead America into the abyss of perpetual war and assassination for their own set of advantages, so were Israeli policies influenced by European Zionist extremists over 60 years ago.

Ultimately, the nations of Israel and the US have a similar plight. Their good people (representing a majority) are victims of internal coupes by small, politically astute groups with extremist ideologies. In both nations their moral majorities are either self-disenfranchised by political apathy or simply fearful of lawful retribution. In my opinion, this situation has resulted in the awakening of subdued fringe undercurrents in the expressions of political frustrations, hatred, racism and other public anomalies.

I think that many of us have seen an increase in antisemitic expressions from nominal fringe groups that have always been there, simply because Israel has stepped up its killing of Arabs while the west was distracted by terrorism and war. If one goes to countries in the Middle East, Europe, and other places where Americans were once revered, you'll now see and hear as much hatred against Americans as you will toward Jews.

I sympathize with the morally and ethically competent majorities, who often get caught in the cross fire between various groups vying for control. But, I also have trouble feeling allot of compassion for a nation whose majority allows a small group of extremists to dictate their choices and freedoms.

Looking back, history had no sympathies for the German people, who allowed Hitler to lead them into their moral abyss. And history will be just as cold with Israelis and Americans for complicity with horribly misguided leaders perpetrating their multifarious agendas if we continue to arrogantly think that we are somehow better.

I've often felt like people speak about their biases toward, or against, Israel w/o differentiating the government of Israel from its people. It seems to be the same stigma that Americans get around the world, "Down With America!". I love my fellow Americans, but I have a seething hatred of TPTB. I feel the same about Israel. I have never met a Jew that I couldn't sit down and have an incredible discourse with, about life, existentialism, family, God, lack of God, etc. I have a great compassion for them and the persecution they've dealt with since...well, since recorded history began. Israel as a govt, though, I share in your disgust at how they have treated Palestinians. I also harbor a compassion for Palestinians, but hate the govt of. In fact, I can't think of a person whom I've had negative associations with, based on 'what' they are...

I guess the short of it is, governments are evil, people are human.

Thank you for a great thread.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: cuckooold

Let me get this straight....

You grew up in the ole USA, in New York!

Yet, somehow, you spew an entire thread on ATS, about a place you have never lived in before.

Have you ever lived in Israel or west bank or gaza?

I was born in the U.S, but grew up in Australia. I have never lived in either Israel, Gaza, nor the West Bank, but my parents have spent extensive time in Israel. A friend of mine who was in Fatah (part of the PLO), was in the Lebanese Civil war in the 80s, and has extensive knowledge of the politics and history of the region, as well as having spent time in an Israel. An ex-student of mine is a Palestinian refugee, who went to Jordan, and then Australia. The point being I have an interest in the region, and know people who have been actively involved in the politics of the region, in the region itself.

I wasn't aware that one is required to visit the region before having an opinion, or 'spewing' a thread. There are plenty of threads on ATS about Israel/Palestine, but I haven't seen many from a Jewish person's perspective, so I felt ATS members may be interested in this. The response I've had to this thread has been overwhelmingly positive - do you have a point to make, or are you just trolling?

a reply to: cuckooold

I wasn't aware that one is required to visit the region before having an opinion, or 'spewing' a thread.

I would lend more credibility to your opinion. In the eyes of people who know better!

a reply to: combatmaster

Do you understand the difference between an 'opinion', and a 'fact'?

I'm not trying to prove anything here - if I was, I would offer evidence to support whatever I may be trying to prove. I would be surprised if my opinion changed the opinions of others. Opinions are based on beliefs or points of view, and quite simply I am offering my opinions on the topics in the thread, as someone who is Jewish.

Can you show me where my credibility needs to be improved -perhaps it's not credible to say I'm Jewish? Perhaps there's no credibility in my saying I think that if Jewish and Palestinian people had to interact face to face on a daily basis (rather than from behind a wall, or a physically divided country), their relationships may benefit.

I'm offering opinions, and it's up to others to decide whether they agree with me or not - I'm failing to see where credibility takes a front seat. There are plenty of people here who I don't agree with, but I've no reason to doubt that they consider what they're saying to be valid.

Having said all this, if you were to look at previous comments I've made, as well as threads I have authored, I doubt you would find many people questioning my credibility.

I would lend more credibility to your opinion. In the eyes of people who know better!

Why should I give any credence to anything you have said? What makes you an authority, and where is the 'evidence' to prove this? What gives you any credibility?

a reply to: cuckooold

Why should I give any credence to anything you have said?

You shouldn't. You should not trust anyone but yourself, and since it is probably to late for you to go back in time and grow up as an Israeli and gain a true experience (as opposed to reading and talking one's entire life) and understanding of this so called 'Apartheid' state, why have an opinion in the first place?

I dont have an opinion about most things because i haven't experienced most things and i know reading a book or talking with someone will be laughable in the eyes of those who have experienced it for real, whatever it may be i.e. war, love, driving, cooking etc etc.

So a specific location should be treated in the same manner, no? its only fair!

This video is all im trying to say brother!

a reply to: Shiloh7

No worries about momentarily mistaking to whom you were speaking. Happens all the time. I was not offended, just a bit confused at the last part.

I believe I did state my view on Muslims possibly outnumbering Jews.

Equal representation in government is key, and with that population is not a concern. I'm very big on that because any minority needs a voice and needs to be heard equally, otherwise you run into more of a mob-run dictatorship and I disagree with that. I am not a proponent of democracy for that reason, true democracy does not give the minority any voice. In a republic however there is equal representation for the minority... and I believe the only way to succeed in a multicultural , multiethnic society.

Here you replied to me in what I took for agreement:

The problem of numbers could be got over as far as the voting is concerned I agree, whether tht would be acceptable of whether people would wish for proportional representation is something that might raise up its head.

The problem of numbers is something that can be solved, easily. Also, the birth rates will go down with an amount of prosperity and security that is not currently at hand, as well as with better access to birth control, which at current moment cannot be easily had in the Palestinian territories.

As far as someday a majority deciding they wish for proportional representation instead of equal representation I think should be dealt with if and when that happens. In most societies when everything is going smoothly they don't much care for it because they enjoy the system as they have it. A lot of the future concerns can be solved simply through better education of the populous.

As I earlier stated, racism is something that needs to end in the area. And both sides have their racial biases and have injuries from the other party. This is not an attitude that will end overnight, but it can end once peace and equality for everyone is reached. At first it will be more tentative but with anti-rasicm being taught extensively this will end eventually. But it wont even have a chance of ending if things go on the way they are... this has to stop.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: cuckooold

Let me get this straight....

You grew up in the ole USA, in New York!

Yet, somehow, you spew an entire thread on ATS, about a place you have never lived in before.

Have you ever lived in Israel or west bank or gaza?

avery american pays for israel
many have died fighting its proxy wars
but, no right to question where the money goes?
or the lives?
or why?
well... ain't that just dandy

considering the religious persuasion of the OP
antisemitism at its finest

a reply to: Danbones

You are supposed to be Canadian, remember?