The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
It's the same Soyuz that "western experts" had said could take Russians to the moon before America. Now do you see why the news clips are important?

No, I see that the old news clips are the result of propaganda and chinese whipers. The Soyuz capsule might have been good to take Russians to the Moon, but their rockets and other pieces of technology and procedures weren't. This has been shown very clearly in this thread many times.

All I see from these old news articles is that the Soviets were feeding everyone propaganda (not necessarily based on truth), and the Americans were bying it.

originally posted by: wildespace

Could the Russians be finally fulfilling SJ's dream?

The Russians are finally fulfilling everyone's dreams of space exploration.... they sold seats for space exploration, it is the perfect experiment in capitalism in space. And who is winning that experiment in 2014? The US space tourism industry does not exist. There are no shuttles, no launch vehicles and no capsules! Americans seems to falling behind in the space race, again. Only the Russians sell space trips. They have a monopoly on the industry.

a reply to: wildespace

"western experts" is a pet peeve of mine. If you look through those old news clips it becomes apparent that there exactly two "western experts" and they are Sir Bernard Lovell at Jodrell Bank and Heinz Kaminski at Bochum. Both of them are notorious for making ridiculous statements about the capacity of the Soviet space program in late 1968.

If these "western experts" were wrong in their evaluations about the Russian space program, the Zond, the Soyuz, Russian intentions, etc, then we must also accept the possibility that they were wrong about the American space program and it's intentions.. and it's outcomes.

Also, looking back on the news clips gives us a very good idea of how the western media controlled the space narratives, especially in the United States.

People like to criticize Tass for Russian propaganda but the American news papers were just as guilty to disinformation, and we see this demonstrated over and over again, when the American news papers used terms like "western experts said" or "a western diplomat says" or a "NASA official said this" or "mission official" said something else.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: wildespace



"western experts" is a pet peeve of mine. If you look through those old news clips it becomes apparent that there exactly two "western experts" and they are Sir Bernard Lovell at Jodrell Bank and Heinz Kaminski at Bochum. Both of them are notorious for making ridiculous statements about the capacity of the Soviet space program in late 1968.



If these "western experts" were wrong in their evaluations about the Russian space program, the Zond, the Soyuz, Russian intentions, etc, then we must also accept the possibility that they were wrong about the American space program and it's intentions.. and it's outcomes.



Also, looking back on the news clips gives us a very good idea of how the western media controlled the space narratives, especially in the United States.



People like to criticize Tass for Russian propaganda but the American news papers were just as guilty to disinformation, and we see this demonstrated over and over again, when the American news papers used terms like "western experts said" or "a western diplomat says" or a "NASA official said this" or "mission official" said something else.

I don't know where to begin.

The biggest boulder lying athwart your path to enlightenment is your utter conviction that you've already arrived. The frustration you seem to be expressing is a consequence of repeated futile collisions with a barrier you can't even detect.

The amount of information, including advance information, was astronomically different in quantity and quality between NASA and the Soviet programs.

To be an expert on Soviet space activities you had to have access to raw space radio signals, which is precisely what Lovell and Kaminski had, and what qualified them. Just reading the TASS ticker wasn't enough. But then you also needed a modicum of engineering operations experience in the technology, which is the wall that both Lovell and Kaminski ran into, to their embarrassment.

That's why those Kettering Grammar School kids led by teacher Geoff Perry in the late 1960s got such well-deserved respect. They systematically studied the radio signals and did engineering analysis on the radio equipmehnt and its implications for each spacecraft as a whole. They analyzed orbital paths.

See www.svengrahn.pp.se...

Learn from them.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: wildespace

Could the Russians be finally fulfilling SJ's dream?

The Russians are finally fulfilling everyone's dreams of space exploration.... they sold seats for space exploration, it is the perfect experiment in capitalism in space. And who is winning that experiment in 2014? The US space tourism industry does not exist. There are no shuttles, no launch vehicles and no capsules! Americans seems to falling behind in the space race, again.

Only the Russians sell space trips. They have a monopoly on the industry.

But not for much longer good old private enterprise is nearly there with Elon Musk & co and they even have the Apollo launch pad from nasa on lease

I fully expected flying space ships by now when i was a child and believed all the crap we were fed back then in the day
then you grow up and figure out they have the Moon bases and saucer's but are keeping mum about it
and feed you just enough to keep you interested

Western media experts, or, anyone else who lists themselves as experts in the history of the Russian space program.

Charles Vick. globalsecurity.org www.globalsecurity.org...
Sir Bernard Lovell, Jodrell Bank observatory. en.wikipedia.org...
Heinz Kaminski, Bochum observatory. en.wikipedia.org...
Dr. Charles Sheldon, Library of Congress, one of the nation's most authoritative experts on the Russian space program. Astronaut Frank Borman.
Kenneth Gatland of the British Interplanetary Society.
Thomas O. Paine, NASA administrator.
Jim Oberg, certainly belongs among that group of space history experts.

Even the experts can be baffled!

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

When it was happening it wasn't history.

How did Luna 15 work out for them?

Who should we believe, the experts or Tass?

But Zond 4 failed, as did 20 of the 38 soviet lunar missions from 1966 to 1972. (www.russianspaceweb.com...)

They tried, we know that. The N1 failed. They had no backup plan. End of story.

Quote from Vasili Mishin(possibly already in this thread):

We, the successors to Korolev, did everything we could, but it was not enough.

You want to argue against Mishin? Go for it.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
Who should we believe, the experts or Tass?

Are you suggesting that Tass, the Soviet state media organisation, was always truthful?

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
Who should we believe, the experts or Tass?

Are you suggesting that Tass, the Soviet state media organisation, was always truthful?

No, I am suggesting that Tass is about as reliable as a "western expert" or a "NASA mission official".

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

What about Russian experts? Do you believe Vasili Mishin?

originally posted by: mrwiffler
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

What about Russian experts? Do you believe Vasili Mishin?

Incredibly the Soviets did 3 lunar lander tests in earth orbit in 1970-71. www.russianspaceweb.com...
Then the 3rd N-1 failure was on June 27, 1971... still not discouraged by Apollo 8 or 11 or 12 or 13. Soviets kept trying. A full year and a half later the last N-1 failure was on November 23 1972!! This means that the Soviets were not discouraged by Apollo 8 or Apollo 11. The sources indicate that Vasily Mishin was ousted in 1974, coincidentally with the termination of Soviet lunar goals. www.russianspaceweb.com...

The Soviets cancelled their lunar program on their own volition in 1974, like 5 years after Apollo 11. They continued on to 1974!!

Now we can finally dispose of another myth in the annals of space history. The Russians were not discouraged by the success of Apollo. The Soviets forward marched through space -step by step- until the day in March 1965 they decided to stop sending humans more than 475km into space. The Soviets are discouraged by the altitude. Then Soviets Tass put out the claim that Zond 4, 5 and 6 were for a manned lunar mission in late 1968 one month before Apollo 8. Facts of history show that Soviets chose not to send a man.

Instead they concentrated on building reliable rockets that were proven winners in the program, Proton.

Perhaps they cancelled their N-1 lunar program in 1974 because Richard Nixon was no longer in the game. That's my interpretation.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
The Soviets are discouraged by the altitude.

That's one of the funniest things I've read on ATS in a while, thanks.

Could have they been discouraged by the lack of reliable rockets and re-entry procedures instead? We can agree that they launched those Zonds with manned missions in view, but did they get encouraging results from those tests?

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Perhaps they cancelled their N-1 lunar program in 1974 because Richard Nixon was no longer in the game.

Or perhaps it's because the design was so flawed that it was not worth devoting any more resources to its development.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Perhaps they cancelled their N-1 lunar program in 1974 because Richard Nixon was no longer in the game.

Or perhaps it's because the design was so flawed that it was not worth devoting any more resources to its development.

Actually, they were very close to a successful N1 launch. Blame the Soviet government for losing patience and pulling the plug. The new (and reliable) engines for N1 were locked away in a shed, until the end of USSR and their sale to the America. If only the Soviets had a ground-testing facility for N1 engines, the history might have been different and the Soviets might have sent men around the Moon, and perhaps even landing them there.

originally posted by: wildespace

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
The Soviets are discouraged by the altitude.

That's one of the funniest things I've read on ATS in a while, thanks.

Could have they been discouraged by the lack of reliable rockets and re-entry procedures instead? We can agree that they launched those Zonds with manned missions in view, but did they get encouraging results from those tests?

Soviets launched the first and second objects (Zond 5, Zond 6) to the moon and returned those objects back to earth. Zond 6 actually "The landing point was only 16 km from the pad from which it had been launched toward the moon." - source Astronautix

That's pretty encouraging.

The Americans did not do any such testing. If they did, it was done in secret. NASA's only way to beat Soviets was to bypass the scientific process and come up with the Tv propaganda plan to send the untested Apollo 8 fully loaded with Frank Borman's crew to the moon.

Recall what the "western observers" said about Apollo in September 1968... please note that the upper part of the news clip was from Washington (UPI) and it named Dr. Edward C. Welch as the source.



However, the lower part of the news clip was filed by Houston (UPI) it reads "American space planners" and "western observers" but no names.

After the Americans claimed the moon for all mankind, the Soviets were still proceeding with Zond 7, 7 August 1969.

Of all circumlunar Zond craft launches, Zond 7 would have been the first to make a safe flight for a crew had it been manned. Source Wiki

Can't get much more thorough than Zond 7... a very encouraging effort by the Soviets.

So my interpretation is that Apollo skipped critical unmanned tests, launched Apollo 8 by faith alone, where no man or command modules had been tested, took ten orbits of the moon, boosted back out from lunar orbit (untested) and made the splash down landing at the fastest speed of any other humans who had flown up until that time (untested).

Selected quotations from astronauts after the Apollo program indicated that the purpose of Apollo was to beat the Russkies to the moon landing, science was second all the time. While the Russians were so methodical in their testing that they flew turtles to the moon and back. USA had no choice but to skip over the essential and methodical human & spacecraft testing that the Russians were doing. The Americans had nothing but faith when they launched Apollo 8.

Coincidentally, the USA had entered into the traditional western religious observation of "Christmas". They used the technology to read from the Bible on Christmas Eve from lunar orbit.... Billy Graham's America would be thrilled. Then there is the faith based crew of Apollo 8. Yes, Borman, Lovell and Anders were all dedicated religious men. Russia didn't have enough faith to send humans beyond the space altitude of 475km. Russian stayed low.

Something is still holding them back.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Perhaps they cancelled their N-1 lunar program in 1974 because Richard Nixon was no longer in the game.

Or perhaps it's because the design was so flawed that it was not worth devoting any more resources to its development.

Soviets made the correct decision to terminate the N-1. They planned to build space stations. Fat rockets not required. America recognized the threat of Soviet space dominance in occupying low earth orbit, cancelled Apollo, and started building space stations and low earth orbit shuttles.

The western media CIA controlled narrative ( the one which we are all familiar with, how the American win and the Russians lose ) is like a concrete side walk built for pedestrians. Easy work for the jack hammer of history.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
What in your opinion is more useful, SJ? Space stations in low earth orbit, or manned missions to the moon?

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
Soviets made the correct decision to terminate the N-1. They planned to build space stations. Fat rockets not required. America recognized the threat of Soviet space dominance in occupying low earth orbit, cancelled Apollo, and started building space stations and low earth orbit shuttles.

And there you have your answer to "why the Russians didn't duplicate Apollo 8" or indeed why no one's been out of low-earth orbit since. Moon shots were a short term victory goal in space race; low earth orbit is of much more immediate and long-term importance (especially for military use and spying).