Want to know whats in the Patriot Act 2?

Originally posted by Amethyst
Nope, not the only one. The Constitution Party is against the Patriot Act, and against the war in Iraq.

I'm a card-carrying CP member.

Constitution Party Site

My Bad

I am a Libertarian and sometimes forget we are not the ONLY "third" party.

I would like to see the Libertarians the Constitution and the Personal Choice parties merge we are pretty close in our platforms and it would greatly increase our chances of winning

Originally posted by Amuk
I would like to see the Libertarians the Constitution and the Personal Choice parties merge we are pretty close in our platforms and it would greatly increase our chances of winning

Could you imagine if every party joined forces agianst the neocons to keep this bill from being passed? Talk about erasing the party lines! If that happened, it would be the largest party with more support than any other party in the history of our nation. Patriotic party's unite!

I have just read on another thread where the State ID card bill was just passed.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

4000 pages, and it was not read, yet I think I read that 78% voted yes.

This is just the precursor. If this bill passed without being read, what makes anyone think that the Patriot Act 2 will be read? Or maybe, it was read, and the powers that be are for this. Dont forget that the neocons have the power in the government now.

Mmmmm helloooo police state. For a nation of freedom lovers you guys aren't putting up much of a fight. Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security

Originally posted by SiRiNO
Mmmmm helloooo police state. For a nation of freedom lovers you guys aren't putting up much of a fight. Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security

There is much complacency in America about our liberties being taken away from us. The thing is, even though a few of us know whats going on, all we few can really do is just be vocal about it. Just keep spreading the word. It would be nice if the citizens of America were in a position to rise up and take back what belongs to them, but unfortunatley, our hands have been tied without us even knowing it. I wont just give up my freedom, and I still feel just as secure as I always have. Secure as in: Im not afraid of anyone coming in the middle of the night to harm my family. I feel I am quite capable of defending them if it comes down to it.

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Patriot act 2 wants to treat US citizens like foreigners, when spying on every phone number you dial:

50 U.S.C. � 1842(a)(1) makes FISA pen registers [phone number capturers] available in investigations of non-U.S. persons to "obtain foreign intelligence information." But for U.S. persons, the standard is much higher. . . .This provision would amend � 1842(a)(1) by eliminating the stricter standard for U.S. persons.

Patriot 2 will allow electronic surveillance, physical searches, or the use of pen registers without prior notice to the FISA [Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act] court virtually anytime the government wants to:

Under 50 U.S.C. �� 1811, 1829 & 1844, the Attorney General may authorize, without the prior approval of the FISA Court, electronic surveillance, physical searches, or the use of pen registers for a period of 15 days following a congressional declaration of war . . . This provision would expand FISA's wartime exception by allowing the wartime exception to be invoked after Congress authorizes the use of military force, or after the United States has suffered an attack creating an national emergency.

You notice there is no time window/limit what-so-ever.

Patriot 2 will allow the government to force people to install pen registers, other electronic surveillance devices or reveal personal records against their will:

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act does not specify the means for enforcement of orders issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. Thus, for example, if a person refuses to comply with an order of the court to cooperate in the installation of a pen register or trap and trace device under 50 U.S.C. � 1842(d), or an order to produce records under 50 U.S.C. � 1861, existing law provides no clearly defined recourse to secure compliance with the court's order. This section remedies this omission by providing that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has the same authority as a United States district court to enforce its orders, including the authority to impose contempt sanctions in case of disobedience.

If you get a terrorist subpoena you are not allowed to tell anyon except your lawyer. Not your family, spouse or anyone.

It also would prohibit a subpoena recipient from disclosing to any other person (except to a lawyer in order to obtain legal advice) the fact that he has received a subpoena.

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Originally posted by slank
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Patriot 2 will allow electronic surveillance, physical searches, or the use of pen registers without prior notice to the FISA [Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act] court virtually anytime the government wants to:

Under 50 U.S.C. �� 1811, 1829 & 1844, the Attorney General may authorize, without the prior approval of the FISA Court, electronic surveillance, physical searches, or the use of pen registers for a period of 15 days following a congressional declaration of war . . . This provision would expand FISA's wartime exception by allowing the wartime exception to be invoked after Congress authorizes the use of military force, or after the United States has suffered an attack creating an national emergency.

You notice there is no time window/limit what-so-ever.

You make a good point here illistrating that the time limit has been removed. This seems to bee a reoccurring theme in this bill. I have noticed that on several occasions in the bill, it has been worded so that the Feds can take all the time they want, to do whatever they want.

(2) Amend 18 U.S.C. � 2518(6), which provides that an electronic surveillance order may require periodic progress reports to the judge who issued the order "at such intervals as the judge may require." As amended, the provision would not allow reports to be required at shorter intervals than 30 days in investigations of terrorist activities.

It breaks down various sections explaining how the Act diminishes civil liberties.

The legal analysis can be found here - ACLU

Nice link, but i do not agree with most of the posts i've read. I guess it goes back to whether or not you believe we are at war with terrorists. I for one see terrorism as a serious threat to the American way of life. Sure we don't get attacked but every 8-10 years but it is still a serious issue that needs to be dealt with.

For one, this isn't just going to protect us from terrorist, it could potentially protect us from Russia, China, or N. Korea.

Second, i do not have anything to hide. The government has been doing these things anyway for several decades so it is nothing new.

And finally something is going to be done to protect US borders.

Borders

� Tests of advanced sensors, videos and unmanned aircraft to secure northern border and new plans to survey southwest border with unmanned aircraft.

� Adds 2,000 Border Patrol agents and 800 immigration and customs agents every year for the next five years.

� Strengthens visa application requirements.

� Makes receiving military-type training from a designated terrorist group an offense that can result in deportation of non-Americans.

� Requires the Homeland Security Department to implement quickly biometrics screening for those entering and leaving the country.
www.foxnews.com...

I don't see the so-called PAII as a threat, i see it as protection. We are at war and it is time we all realize that.
AP

The protection is not what some of us are concerned about. Its the generalisation of leagal terms to creat loop holes, as well as the added, and non needed ammendments that give the government even more of our rights.

Here is a little bit more about Homeland Securities big brother for Americans to ponder.

Excerpt from: �Your Papers Please�

US adopts National ID: Homeland Security Now In charge of Regulations for all US States Drivers Licenses and Birth Certificates
By: Jonathan Wheeler

Beginning in 2005, the Department of Homeland Security will issue new uniformity regulations to the States requiring that all Drivers Licenses and Birth Certificates meet minimal Federal Standards with regard to US citizen information, including biometric security provisions.

Added to currently existing Federal Laws and Supreme Court rulings American citizens when born will be issued a Social Security Number that will be included on their Birth Certificates, along with DNA biometric markers. All birth certificates will also be registered in a Federal Government database maintained by the Department of Homeland Security. No child will be allowed enrollment to schools or be entitled to either State of Federal Government benefits programs without first presenting a certified Homeland Security registered Birth Certificate.

Drivers Licenses will also contain DNA biometric markers and include the holders Social Security Number and be required for receiving and applying for all State and Federal benefits programs. Previous Supreme Court rulings have also upheld State and Federal Law Enforcement authorities right to request Identification from any American citizen, for any reason and at any time as not being violations of their, the citizens, constitutionally protected rights.

Source: www.whatdoesitmean.com...

Canada has something similar in place with the new biometric passports and medical insurance cards they have a photograph, date of birth, signature, and home address, funny thing with these health cards is banks and some businesses won�t accept them as identification even though they have been provided my government.

Originally posted by AntiPolitrix
Second, i do not have anything to hide. The government has been doing these things anyway for several decades so it is nothing new.

Ah yes, the old "I have nothing to hide" defense. So, if you have nothing to hide, you won't mind if I come in and search your house whenever I feel like it? How about stopping you on your way to and from work and searching your car? Or maybe I'll set up checkpoints on the sidewalk and make you show me your license and social security cards whenever I feel it necessary. How about a background check? I'm pretty sure your credit isn't perfect, or maybe you bounced a check once? Can I see how much money you keep in the bank? I might even ask you to take off your clothes, because you could be hiding something under them. Would you mind if I just listen in on all your phone calls? You have nothing to hide, right? Maybe I'll just mount a camera on top of your TV so I can watch you in your living room. I can't see why you'd have a problem with losing your privacy, since you're doing nothing wrong. It's for your own good. If we watch everyone very closely, we're sure to catch a terrorist or two.

You seriously have no problem with that? Because that's what you're giving them the power to do. I'll bet you $1000 dollars I can find something you'd rather keep from public knowledge...whether it's your sex life, personal habits, or anything you consider private. Everyone has something they consider their right to keep private, whether illegal or just downright humiliating. You fail to realize how dangerous this bill is. Sure, you can say, "But they won't do that to me!" But what happens when they do, and there's no legislation to stop them? That won't bother you at all, eh? That's so anti-American, it hurts to even think about it.

I dread the day that even your own genes betray you. It's coming. Drug testing is already pretty close to that.

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Damned]

all i can say is
america is screwed

our nation used to be great
but its falling apart fast

democracy my a$$
its HYPOCRACY

and theres NOTHING we can do!!!!
soon we will be arrested for speaking our mind!! i hope not tho!

if i did ANYTHING to stop the Patriot act 2
i would go to Prison FOREVER!

those who act agianst the GOvt are "Terrorists"!
theres NO way to change anything anymore!!

we cant march on DC anymore
we cant do anything progressive

man i hate the govt

if they would just legalize weed
i would shut up

going to prison for life over a joint is the most unfair thing on earth

and you wonder why terrorists appear suddenly

the TERRORISTS appear because they would rather die fighting than accept the INJUSTICE

i personally just want weed legalized

Legalize it NOW im SICK of these STUPID laws telling me that Pot is BAD because POT NEVER KILLED ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wheres the newspaper articles that say "bob died of marijuana overdose"???????

no one has EVER died from a pot overdose its impossible!
if anyone died it was because dangerous additive pesticides or other chemicals like COCAIN were put in it

pot doesnt cause crimes
unless its illegal
then u can get them for possesion

but really
the govt is injust
EVIL EMPIRE

i didnt care that they invaded iraq
i didnt care that they murder anyone
i didnt care when they blew up their own trade towers to take away certain freedoms
i didnt care much when they frauded the elections

BUT I DID CARE WHEN THEY SAID POT WAS A TERRORIST ACTIVITY
ITS A LIE

just let me smoke my pot and play my video games !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Freedom my a$$!!!!!

Originally posted by Damned


Ah yes, the old "I have nothing to hide" defense.

So, if you have nothing to hide, you won't mind if I come in and search your house whenever I feel like it? How about stopping you on your way to and from work and searching your car? Or maybe I'll set up checkpoints on the sidewalk and make you show me your license and social security cards whenever I feel it necessary. How about a background check? I'm pretty sure your credit isn't perfect, or maybe you bounced a check once? Can I see how much money you keep in the bank? I might even ask you to take off your clothes, because you could be hiding something under them. Would you mind if I just listen in on all your phone calls? You have nothing to hide, right? Maybe I'll just mount a camera on top of your TV so I can watch you in your living room. I can't see why you'd have a problem with losing your privacy, since you're doing nothing wrong. It's for your own good. If we watch everyone very closely, we're sure to catch a terrorist or two.

I never understand why people use that argument. This quote is precisly why I dont understand it. It would seem to me that people would want thier private lives private. This bill is the undoing of our civil liberties and basic human rights. We have had this agenda forced upon us as an unsuspecting populace. We were niave and believed in our government to do what was right to protect its citizens, and they used this niavity to free us of our rights to privacy in our lives.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I never understand why people use that argument.

Me neither.

Carrying this a bit further you could say I would like to see Orwell's "1984" because if our entire lives were being watched it would not allow the terrorists a chance to plan and after all I have nothing to hide.

Has any of the people using this defense ever heard of "none of your business"? Our fore fathers did not intend for this country to become a police state and don't give me that argument that they couldn't understand todays world. When our country started out we had TWO empires on both sides of us and were even fighting Muslim pirates.

They understood human nature. Even with the most honest of reasons, which I don't believe we have here, sooner or later these laws WILL be used against us.

Remember the drug money confiscation law? How many hundreds of Innocent people had there money confiscated and had to go to court and prove they were NOT a drug dealer? Once it was used to take a chain of stores from its owner because money in one of the cash
register's tested positive for coc aine. Take the money you have in your pocket and have it tested. I guarantee some of it will come back positive.

It cost the man thousands of dollars to get his stores back not even including the workers that lost their jobs.

ANY law will be abused by those in power

Originally posted by Amuk

ANY law will be abused by those in power

Completly agree Amuk It would be nice if we could just have our privacy, and still feel safe. People know there is a bad element out there. People are also more alert now more than ever. We dont need these laws for us to be a safer country. The standing policy of this countrys government should be: My citizens freedom is of the upmost importance and that is what I am here to protect. If Terror strikes, the retribution will be swift.

This policy still affords the citizens thier privacy while maintaining a positive stance towards our nations safty

... is that all this wasted time, effort and money could have been used-

TO FIGHT TERRORISM instead!

The Freedom Checklist:
(Constitution? check)
(Bill of Rights? check)

Originally posted by Chakotay
The Freedom Checklist:
(Constitution? check)
(Bill of Rights? check)

Rights protection to get rid of in order to have total power over the people:

(Constitution? Check)
(Bill of Rights? Check)

Mark my words, this bill will not be the last of its kind to be considered by congress, and it will not be the last one passed. It will not stop untill one of two things happens:

1. Open rebellion amoung the citizens.

2. Democratic majority is gained and maintained in the government.

These are the only two things Ican see to change the road we are on.

See how the American government uses "terrorism" to gain more control of the very people it claims to be trying to defend.

I always say, "The only difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in the former, you get to choose your oppressors." And that's when the elections aren't rigged.

Everyone will learn a great lesson.

Originally posted by Amuk
Our fore fathers did not intend for this country to become a police state and don't give me that argument that they couldn't understand todays world.

Exactly! Our forefathers had enough insite to see today's world, actually. They planned as best they could for the day when the government would deem itself more important than it should be, and in turn take as much power as they wanted. They knew that days like these would come. What they didn't know is that none of their carefully thought out precautions to prevent the gov from consuming too much power would matter one iota, in later times. With the possible exception of Jefferson. He always knew it was coming. The man was always anti-establishment, really, and with good reason.
I'd rather feel unsafe, than give up every last ounce of freedom and privacy I have left for a feeling of false security. When it comes right down to it, nobody is ever safe from anything. You can disrupt your life worrying about it, or you can live free, never knowing how much time you have left, and just accept it. You could die in 5 minutes, for all anyone knows. Why worry about it? I don't. When I'm dead, I won't care.

We now live in a world where, not only can't you smoke in the same room as an infant, but you can't even smoke on another level in a closed room, far from them. The safety issues have been taken beyond fanatical, and entered the realm of ridiculous. This seems to follow suit in almost every issue, including terror. America is full of terror 24/7. I am definitely not, nor will I ever be, one of them.

[edit on 12-12-2004 by Damned]

Originally posted by Damned

I'd rather feel unsafe, than give up every last ounce of freedom and privacy I have left for a feeling of false security. When it comes right down to it, nobody is ever safe from anything.

I think this is how alot of America feel. I for one dont want to give up my freedoms to gain security. Let them come. I will protect my family as best I can. Untill then, let me remain a free citizen, not a slave to the establishment. People will wake up and realize whats going on eventually, I just hope its not to late when everyone opens thier eyes.