Ukraine's Maidan -- Egypt's Tahir Square Repeated!

Hello ATS,

Some of you may know me from the main Ukraine news update thread.

Most here have taken a strongly partisan view regarding who is blame for the violence sweeping Ukraine at present.

I am definitely no supporter of the current Kremlin regime, mainly since I fear the scope of Putin's near term ambitions, given everything I have observed working closely with members of the Russian military-industrial complex.

However, I also believe multiple agendas are to blame for the escalations and disinformation campaigns we have witnessed these past few months.

For those who deny the legitimacy of the Euromaidan movement -- that it was a popular one attracting common, everyday Ukrainians, thousands who were indignant over chronic corruption and repression -- I believe you are either engaging in partisan disinformation or have ignorance of real events as they transpired in Kyiv.

I would offer to everybody, no matter if you blame Russia or the USA/EU, the example of Tahir Square in my father's homeland of Egypt.

The way that a popular revolution there, for and by the people, was manipulated by several groups is very instructive!

Perhaps Putin is not too dissimilar from Mubarak; the Muslim Brotherhood not too dissimilar from Right Sector and other extremist groups who became opportunists.

Watch this excellent documentary about the events which transpired over the course of many months in Tahir Square, and decide for yourself.

VIDEO: The Square - Full Length Documentary

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

Instructi ons For ‘Protesters’ Gear/Uniform In Tahrir/Maidan in Arabic & Ukrainian Languages Are Identical

What had happened in Egypt?

Egypt’s armed forces ousted former President Mohammed Morsi to avoid a “civil war,” says army chief in an interview.

Egypt's Al-Sissi: Morsi's Ousting Prevented a Civil War

How many massacres will be needed in Ukraine for another result?

originally posted by: maghun

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

Instructi ons For ‘Protesters’ Gear/Uniform In Tahrir/Maidan in Arabic & Ukrainian Languages Are Identical

What had happened in Egypt?

Egypt’s armed forces ousted former President Mohammed Morsi to avoid a “civil war,” says army chief in an interview.

Egypt's Al-Sissi: Morsi's Ousting Prevented a Civil War

How many massacres will be needed in Ukraine for another result?

Interesting.

While such a manual as the one you have posted may have existed in both places, I would call into question its prevalence in either.

Please watch the film and you will see what a real grassroots protest movement can look like; also how it can be corrupted.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I agree with you very strongly indeed.

I find it kind of ridiculous that many people on here seem to view the Euromaidan movement as instigated by the CIA or other western agitators, and that Putin is some form of ultimate national leader which the US should aim for.
I highly doubt the CIA could train hundreds of thousands of normal people to revolt, however i do not doubt there was some involvement, but it would have been extremely minor and peripheral to the macro scale event.

I wonder if those same people loving Putin wish for the leaders of the US to embezzle literally hundreds of billions of dollars too?

The Yanukovych regime was incredibly corrupt, stealing billions from the coffers of the nation, a monumental crime with has put Ukraine back decades in terms of economic growth. However I also do not trust Yulia Tymoshenko, she is a power crazy woman whom views the world similar to Putin, as a zero sum game with winners and losers, black and white.
The European union is also part to blame as it stirred up divides within the country to try and gain support.

There is no doubt however, that the Yanukovych regime and its Russian puppet masters are mostly to blame, for Putin and his oligarchy allowed Yanukovych to steal from Ukraine and its people and kept him there. I also believe that the orders to shoot protesters which escalated the situation needed approval from the Kremlin.

Overall the situation is a complete mess. It has become almost unpredictable and maybe Putin wants that, divide and conquer. Keep Ukraine divided and poor hence preventing a strong Pro-EU nation on its border, allowing Russia to interfere with the internal workings of a weak and corrupt state to control it.

I do not believe Russia will invade, I may be wrong but maybe its in Putin's interest to simply back the separatists in the Donetsk region covertly and stir up a tensions to keep the nation weak.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

That is why grassroots-movements better have their objectives and motives explicitly clarified and outlined.
Nowadays revolutions are managed by professionals, or infiltrated and hijacked later on.
Our intelligence services have great experience in the matter... amateur competitors beware.

a reply to: ColCurious

Very true, a foreign revolution is a godsend to the intelligence services.

A climate of lawlessness and revolutionary fervor is fertile ground for acquiring intelligence assets and manipulation.

No paper trails, no police following things up, possible violence against enemies.

Wow, just perfect for a foreign intelligence service which wants to gain influence

a reply to: maghun

Totally true. Seen it.

a reply to: rusblued9217

The Idea that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet is joke of it's own. Yanukovich still DID encourage neo-nazi movements back in the day. That is by no means pro-Russian How is that Pro-Russian by any means. But I agree. He was a corrupt asshole. Although so is the current Power. Burning people alive. Hell, Yanukovich was an aglel, compared to that. Yanukovich forbid live rounds on maidan. Current power said "shoot to kill" for the protesters. People who support maidan are idiots. Sorry. I lived in this world for far too long.

a reply to: rusblued9217

Don't forget that Egypt and Ukraine are independent (???) countries.

Introduction: Not since the US and EU took over Eastern Europe, including the Baltic countries, East Germany, Poland and the Balkans and converted them into military outposts of NATO and economic vassals, have the Western powers moved so aggressively to seize a strategic country, such as the Ukraine, posing an existential threat to Russia.

James Petras is a Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York.

Let us be absolutely clear, the struggle in the Ukraine is not between the US and Russia, it is between a NATO-imposed junta composed of neo-liberal oligarchs and fascists on one side and the industrial workers and their local militias and democratic councils on the other. The former defends and obeys the IMF and Washington; the latter relies on the productive capacity of local industry and rules by responding to the majority.

The Kiev Putsch: Rebel Workers Take Power in the East

originally posted by: thegeck
a reply to: rusblued9217

The Idea that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet is joke of it's own. Yanukovich still DID encourage neo-nazi movements back in the day. That is by no means pro-Russian How is that Pro-Russian by any means. But I agree. He was a corrupt asshole. Although so is the current Power. Burning people alive. Hell, Yanukovich was an aglel, compared to that. Yanukovich forbid live rounds on maidan. Current power said "shoot to kill" for the protesters. People who support maidan are idiots. Sorry. I lived in this world for far too long.

Well then why was he in favour of all Russian policy's and constantly visiting the kremlin?

I think it is obvious Yankovich favour his mothers homeland

The first thing he did when he got into office was close down Ukraine's ties to the EU and their previous requests to join the EU & NATO

And then he mysterious got extremely rich


Hmm

a reply to: maghun

I am sorry you are wrong.

No leader of any nation can get away with stealing billions and building lavish palaces for too long.

The Maidan movement has been influenced and guided by foreign agitators yes, but it began as a revolution against the MASSIVE corruption in Ukraine. Yanukovych was a puppet like it or not.

a reply to: TritonTaranis

Maybe the Russian's offer was better?

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

My fault's are the references due to quick search...

But I hope you can confirm this:

The recent NATO wars against Russian allies or trading partners confirm this prognosis. In Libya, the independent, non-aligned policies of the Gadhafi regime stood out in stark contrast to the servile Western satellites like Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia. Gadhafi was overthrown and Libya destroyed via a massive NATO air assault. Egypt’s mass popular anti-Mubarak rebellion and emerging democracy were subverted by a military coup and eventually returned the country to the US-Israeli-NATO orbit – under a brutal dictator. Armed incursions by NATO proxy, Israel, against Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon as well as the US-EU sanctions against Iran are all directed against potential allies or trading partners of Russia.

a reply to: rusblued9217

Yes, in a country like this the peolpe are angry:



Are you aware that this was the second "orange" maidan revolution? First was in 2004, and the junta puppets now in power was ousted by democratic 2010 elections. No problems, in 2014 they made an "early 2015" maidan. Why they can not wait for the preplanned 2015 maidan? Why hurry?

a reply to: TritonTaranis

Well, then I have no illusions why the current Power visits the US on a regular basis. AND The CIA visits Ukraine too. I like the loadout. Send American helicopters to suppress Slavyansk to par. C'mon. Why not. The head of the *ucking CIA has already visited Ukraine. What a coincidence. Where are the tanks already?
Taranis, I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it in the slightest bit.I hope History teaches you what is right and what is wrong.

a reply to: maghun

Believe me I am fully aware of the orange revolution in 2004, it's almost an insult to my intelligence to assume I am not.
Luckily I am not easily offended, unlike many here!

Are you aware of the poisoning of Viktor Yushenko in 2004 supposedly by FSB agents?

Are you aware as to why party of the Regions won in 2010 though?

It was almost entirely due to the split first vote against Yanukovych.

Yanukovych got 35.3%

Tymoshenko got 25.0%
Yushchenko got 5.5%
Serhiy Tihipko got 13.0%
Arseniy Yatsenyuk got 6.7%

Then yanukovych won on second round, however this is largely due to Yushenko running aswell as tymoshenko, splitting the non-yanukovych vote.

Yanukovych is at fault for the collapse of Ukraine, he should not have embezzled huge sums of funds and should not have installed "yes men" as his ministers and regional governors, he deserved to be overthrown. I don't doubt that western intelligence agencies were involved to some degree, but they were just capitalizing on massive discontentment in Ukraine, they were just acting opportunistically in the situation, like the FSB would act too.

By the way I am in no way in favor of Yulia Tymoshenko, or the Ukraine joining the EU. The EU is a collapsing entity which has been destined to fall apart since the day it decided to have fiscal eurozone union without political union, absolute disaster!

Also I am British (ethnically Russian), and hence I am inherently euro-skeptic. I despise the EU.

But i don't want people to unjustly blame ONLY the west for the collapse of Ukraine, it is largely due to Yanukovych and to a smaller extent the actions of Russia and the west.

But the west didn't make Yanukovych steal millions and shoot protesters (well maybe Russia influenced the shooting & certainly turned a blind eye to the embezzlement, a MASSIVE problem in Russia)

a reply to: rusblued9217

First, let me say that I'm not blaming only the west for the crisis in Ukraine, and I agree about most of what you posted. (I'm also very euro-skeptic myself)

Now let me ask you, do you think the so-called "Euromaidan" was a legit revolution of the people?

Is a movement of half a million (the highest estimate I know of), in a country of 45 million people, resulting in the takeover of an interim Government with a faction that held just under 11% votes in 2012 (Svoboda = 10.45% , UNA-UNSO = 0.08% in 2012) but is now holding several key positions in the acting Government, and a Prime Minister that got only 7% in 2010 - even remotely representative?

And is this interim Government legitimized now to make momentous deals with the IMF, with immense economic consequences for future generations of Ukrainians to come, whitout the people's consent?

Now add our western intelligence services history with instigating "revolutions", and ask the old question "qui bono?"
If you ask me, this whole revolution stinks to heaven.

Viktor Yushenko -- he was a high profile guest amongst foreign service and consultancy firms here leading up to 2004. Dubai is like Las Vegas for the Levant and former Soviet countries alike. But he was outspoken and then naturally became a mark. Everybody knew he was burning bridges. The gossip preceded the attempts made on his life.

But I am curious to hear your opinions about the film expose I linked.

What do these maneuvers mean for the idealistic, the activists, the ones who seek civic justice?

originally posted by: ColCurious
a reply to: rusblued9217

First, let me say that I'm not blaming only the west for the crisis in Ukraine, and I agree about most of what you posted. (I'm also very euro-skeptic myself)

Now let me ask you, do you think the so-called "Euromaidan" was a legit revolution of the people?

Is a movement of half a million (the highest estimate I know of), in a country of 45 million people, resulting in the takeover of an interim Government with a faction that held just under 11% votes in 2012 (Svoboda = 10.45% , UNA-UNSO = 0.08% in 2012) but is now holding several key positions in the acting Government, and a Prime Minister that got only 7% in 2010 - even remotely representative?

And is this interim Government legitimized now to make momentous deals with the IMF, with immense economic consequences for future generations of Ukrainians to come, whitout the people's consent?

Now add our western intelligence services history with instigating "revolutions", and ask the old question "qui bono?"
If you ask me, this whole revolution stinks to heaven.

Watch the film I posted. It is a near perfect analog, at least at the start.

Here is another valuable insight for what the Euromaidan started as, an article from an independent journalist before the crisis erupted. It clarifies how the Kyiv square came to be occupied by thousands. And it is not what the western media largely portrayed, to be sure.

I really try to push this message to people beyond Ukraine, but it seems to fall upon deaf ears too often, maybe because it is too idealistic?

(Why are good and evil in their most unadulterated forms always considered 'mundane' in our age?)

UNDERSTANDING EUROMADIAN (January 23, 2013)
www.businessinsider.com...

People are fighting for their rights, not for EU membership.

Protests in Ukraine are not pro-EU (as it is written in most of international news agencies). The disruption of the association agreement with the European Union in November was only cause for local rallies. But after a peaceful student protest was violently dispersed by the 'Berkut' [special police] in Kyiv on Nov. 30, a million angry people took to the central square of the capital. Since then rebellion has not gone away; instead it turned into an anti-government uprising demanding the resignation of the Prime Minister and Interior Minister, and also the resignation of President Viktor Yanukovych. Most people are tired of total corruption in all spheres of life and the lack of justice and security officials' self-will. The middle class has become an engine of the protest since it suffered harassment from the tax agencies. Now the protest has joined with the radicals, who actually began violent confrontation on Sunday, tired of waiting for action from the liberal opposition. However, they have support among the majority of protesters.

originally posted by: rusblued9217
a reply to: maghun

Believe me I am fully aware of the orange revolution in 2004, it's almost an insult to my intelligence to assume I am not.
Luckily I am not easily offended, unlike many here!

Are you aware of the poisoning of Viktor Yushenko in 2004 supposedly by FSB agents?

Are you aware as to why party of the Regions won in 2010 though?

It was almost entirely due to the split first vote against Yanukovych.

Yanukovych got 35.3%

Tymoshenko got 25.0%
Yushchenko got 5.5%
Serhiy Tihipko got 13.0%
Arseniy Yatsenyuk got 6.7%

Then yanukovych won on second round, however this is largely due to Yushenko running aswell as tymoshenko, splitting the non-yanukovych vote.

Yanukovych is at fault for the collapse of Ukraine, he should not have embezzled huge sums of funds and should not have installed "yes men" as his ministers and regional governors, he deserved to be overthrown. I don't doubt that western intelligence agencies were involved to some degree, but they were just capitalizing on massive discontentment in Ukraine, they were just acting opportunistically in the situation, like the FSB would act too.

By the way I am in no way in favor of Yulia Tymoshenko, or the Ukraine joining the EU. The EU is a collapsing entity which has been destined to fall apart since the day it decided to have fiscal eurozone union without political union, absolute disaster!

Also I am British (ethnically Russian), and hence I am inherently euro-skeptic. I despise the EU.

But i don't want people to unjustly blame ONLY the west for the collapse of Ukraine, it is largely due to Yanukovych and to a smaller extent the actions of Russia and the west.

But the west didn't make Yanukovych steal millions and shoot protesters (well maybe Russia influenced the shooting & certainly turned a blind eye to the embezzlement, a MASSIVE problem in Russia)

You are closest to my outlook and experience, somehow.

Pleasure to meet you.