Sandy Hook Forensic Evidence

originally posted by: Blaine91555
Just a point to ponder on this. If the reports all matched and there were no errors or conflicts, I'd be far more suspicious. Everything in order means look out there is a conspiracy and the documents / reports have been tampered with prior to release; while the errors that exist show the material is more likely to be unedited and truthful.

I know that's seldom considered in these topics, but it's realistic all the same. Human error is a given when viewed rationally and its also a given IMO that with multiple people involved, there are likely many errors, conflicts or omissions. It would be seriously unrealistic to assume otherwise.

Taking your logic a step farther, someone looking to fake a report would be sure to fill it with inconsistencies so that it looked real. You just said "errors that exist show the material is more likely to be unedited and truthful." Is it possible that someone looking to fake a report would be as smart as you and figure this out?

Not saying that's what happened here, simply pointing out the natural extension of your logic.

I'm struck by one particular contrast. Already, much of this thread has been dominated by discussion of a possible resuscitation efforts on Nancy Lanza. We've even had expert testimony as to why someone may have attempted to revive her even though all hope appeared lost, and rigor mortis had apparently set in.

Contrast this with what we've heard about conditions within the school. Scant details about attempts to save lives inside. Questions, in fact, about who actually declared all of these victims dead, and why (apparently) significant efforts were not made.

originally posted by: 3mperorConstantinE
a reply to: lovebeck
You would ordinarily be 100% correct on HIPPA (it was too late to edit the post to add the caveat: that the exemption is not “death”, per say, but “death as a result of a criminal act” and the information is released to LE)

Re: AED pads --would those be listed under Medical Intervention?
Those in the field who I have consulted have said that those would likely be removed and documented.
After all, if the noted EMT hooked her up to get an ECG read (as opposed to say, just taking a pulse) for the purposes of making a pronouncement of death, then that information would/should be listed.
…and of course, it's not.

Plus, rigor mortis is usually a pretty good sign of death to the trained eye.



Cheers,
~C.

Those you consulted may not have had much experience in dealing with someone who would be classified as a "coroners case". When someone dies under mysterious circumstances, homicide, within so many hours of having surgery/being admitted to the hospital, and/or for a plethora of other reasons, medical personnel caring for them calls the coroner, gives them the info and they either take the case, or not.

For the cases that are sent to the coroner, it is imperative that the person, once pronounced dead, arrive to the coroner totally undisturbed. Say if there was a "code" and there were all sorts of tubes, leads, etc. applied to the person during life saving efforts, ALL those tubes, IV's, EKG leads, breathing tubes, etc. must be left undisturbed. It's the law, pretty much in just about every state. This, I am pretty sure, would have applied to NL and I believe that the application of AED leads would be considered a medical intervention in order to pronounce death, for certain. Regardless, they must confirm death and this is one way that they could do that. The fact that they felt rigor had set in is just an observation and wouldn't normally be used as a definitive confirmation of death.

I will have to look into your HIPAA claim. My aim is to not "shut the thread down" or anything like that. Not at all. The fact that this is all public record must trump any HIPAA claim, otherwise this information would not be so readily/easily available.

From the ME's report, he wore a drop holster on his right leg. Also he apparently wore some kind of rifle sling on his right arm. I know nothing about guns or slings. So correct me if needed. This would suggest to me that he was right handed and would be firing a gun from his right hand.

Amateur that I am, I tried to act out on myself how he could accomplish putting a gun to the back of his own head when a bullet to the heart would be easier. However if it could easily be done by placing the barrel behind the ear and aiming upwards, would it not tend to exit on the top left side of the head instead of the right? A person would have to have a calm steady hand to get the bullet to go straight up, but why take such care to do that as your last act? The natural trajectory line according to my way of thinking would be bottom right to exit on top left if self inflicted.

a reply to: 3mperorConstantinE

When I read this:

Both sides of the envelope, the card, the adhesive side of the stamp, and the .22LR bullets were all found to have DNA MATCHING SOMEONE IN THE CONVICTED FELON DNA DATABASE FOR NEW YORK STATE "

I had to sit down for a bit. The reality of the implications of such a discovery automatically invokes a conspiracy, does it not? So sad, and intriguing at the same time. It demands full disclosure of what was found.

Awesome research ! What peaked my curiosity was that myserious letter adressed to the Sandy Hook children. Make no mistake, the dna analysis is perplexing but im much more interested in what was written. Hopefully something turns up.. like say a motive.

originally posted by: lovebeck
Those you consulted may not have had much experience in dealing with someone who would be classified as a "coroners case". When someone dies under mysterious circumstances, homicide, within so many hours of having surgery/being admitted to the hospital, and/or for a plethora of other reasons, medical personnel caring for them calls the coroner, gives them the info and they either take the case, or not.

Yes, they're both more than familiar with ‘coroner cases’.
I think you didn't fully read the original post.
Neither the Western nor Eastern District Major Crime Unit Tactical Teams were attaching AED pads to Lanza's mother.
Apologies for reposting this, but it is important, and a review of it may help you eliminate some of the conjecture regarding the pronouncement of death and possible (but non-evident) resuscitation efforts performed on Nancy Lanza.


If Dennis from AMR Ambulance thought she could possibly be resuscitated, they'd have called Medical Control and gotten a doc to make an official determination for either an order to attempt resuscitation or a DNR.
This understandably didn't occur.
He pronounced her dead all of 3 or 4 minutes after arriving at the scene.
He took the body and left.

ETA: and I am presuming for the sake of everyone's sanity, that Dennis did not attach AED defibrillator pads to Nancy Lanza's bullet-ridden body while in the ambulance after having just pronounced her dead at the scene.

originally posted by: charlyv
I had to sit down for a bit. The reality of the implications of such a discovery automatically invokes a conspiracy, does it not?

Yes, I believe it does.

So sad, and intriguing at the same time. It demands full disclosure of what was found.

You're right, and again, I truly believe it does.

a reply to: 3mperorConstantinE
the report gives an extensive description of a single holster. they list a 10mm glock being found. An AR with a sling. But vest had SIG mags.
So: He has a rifle on a sling...ok. 10mm glock is in the holster...ok. and...........
Where was the 9mm SIG? how was he carrying it? why 3 spare SIG mags, but only one mag for the glock with no spares?

why were there unfired 10mm on the floor? if the gun had been malfunctioning and they had been cleared, they would have extraction marks on them. are there pictures of them? and of course if one 10mm went into him, then what was the second spent 10mm case from?
And if the 10mm was acting up, why wouldn't Lanza just switched to the SIG instead of dealing with multiple misfires from the 10mm?
and how does one load magazines without getting fingerprints all over them....unless you were wearing gloves. which seems odd for someone about to go on a one way trip.
and wheres the mention of the shotgun. and the ammunition for it?
and did they ever find the mask I thought was reported he was wearing? and where is its DNA testing? and a hat and a mask? did any witnesses describe that combo? so he takes the hat off, so he can take the mask off, then puts the hat on again?

originally posted by: Libertygal
a reply to: 3mperorConstantinE

When a medical team arrives, an interference usually occurs, even if the person appears dead. CPR, and and AED are usually applied for a given period of time, perhaps 10-15 minutes. All areas have a proceedure they must follow, yes , even if it appears futile. Sometimes, God moves in mysterious ways, and people have been rescusitated in what appeared to be the absolute worst of circumstances.

If that was the reason of the pads in the body is a normal procedure to put one of them in an arm/wrist?, is not supposed to be placed on the chest?

originally posted by: lovebeck
Nice job on the research. However, there is a TOTALLY normal explanation of why Nancy Lanza would've arrived at the coroner's office with the AED pads on her chest...

The paramedics or whom ever "pronounced" her, they have to check. Applying the AED's and hooking her up to a monitor would be the easiest way to confirm she had no electrical activity and no heart beat, even if it appeared rigor had set in. This combined with an actual physical assessment (listening/feeling for a pulse, looking/listening for respiration) is pretty common when pronouncing someone dead.

As far as your statement that HIPAA doesn't apply after death, that is not true. HIPAA protects our private health information for 50 years after death.

The HIPAA Privacy Rule protects the individually identifiable health information about a decedent for 50 years following the date of death of the individual. This period of protection for decedent health information balances the privacy interests of surviving relatives and other individuals with a relationship to the decedent, with the need for archivists, biographers, historians, and others to access old or ancient records on deceased individuals for historical purposes.

HIPAA and Death

Again, great job on the OP. I just wanted to clear these two things up.

Does this apply in the case of murder?

Glad to see real paperwork and details emerge..

One more thing for the moment:
When Adam's brother, Ryan Lanza was located by police walking down the street to his apartment in Hoboken, NJ, he told the police that “he didn't do it, it was his brother, and his brother had killed his mom, too”
The police naturally inquire as to how he knew this...
…he said: his father told him via telephone. With that in mind—and bear with me for a second—I'm going to post some of the Hoboken Police Department's own officer testimony of this encounter (starting around page 340 of Book 8):




Now, wait a minute — exactly what time is this conversation taking place; where Ryan Lanza has already been informed (by his father) of his mother's tragic murder ?


Yep, the exact same time that his mother is being declared dead, 80 miles away.

Is there any official documentation that would reveal how many, and/or who, read the contents of the card in the envelope?
What I am getting at is, since the official evidence clearly shows that at least another person was involved, can a public FOIA action be successful in obtaining this information, or subpoena them to reveal it under oath?

a reply to: robobbob
All great questions

I am not well-versed on this case by any stretch of the imagination, and I have attempted to discard what I have heard in forming this reply. So based strictly off of what you presented, would not the presence of another individual's DNA at one of the crime scenes, especially considering that DNA belonged to a known felon, mean that this investigation MUST include a tangent suspect immediately?

Again, this is disregarding what has been stated about witnesses describing a second gunman, and the evidence found at the car that also could potentially suggest a second gunman. I am definitely not certain whether there is enough reasonable doubt to conclude that this was some sort of conspiracy on the part of some actual organization, whomever that could be, but I think there is enough reasonable doubt to suggest that there was "something" else going on here. I don't know what that "something" is, and I could speculate all day long, but that won't really get anything accomplished I suppose.

I applaud you for this thread because this is the most comprehensive "evidence-based" thread that I have personally come across dealing with this event, and although it is sad that certain topics have to be censored due to both the insensitivity of some and the inability of others (purposefully ambiguous), apparently this topic must be waded through very cautiously, and I just wanted to say you did a masterful job in my opinion.

originally posted by: charlyv
Is there any official documentation that would reveal how many, and/or who, read the contents of the card in the envelope?
What I am getting at is, since the official evidence clearly shows that at least another person was involved, can a public FOIA action be successful in obtaining this information, or subpoena them to reveal it under oath?

No, there is not any official documentation.
Obviously whichever police cataloged the envelope and card into evidence would know.

Good luck even figuring out the case number (and again, strangely, evidence #003-* [the SHE card] is associated with a different case?! Um. Why???)
The page I showed references a case number 12-00 711-626 and a 12-00 771-626.

No way to tell which one is right, if either.

originally posted by: 3mperorConstantinE

originally posted by: charlyv
Is there any official documentation that would reveal how many, and/or who, read the contents of the card in the envelope?
What I am getting at is, since the official evidence clearly shows that at least another person was involved, can a public FOIA action be successful in obtaining this information, or subpoena them to reveal it under oath?

No, there is not any official documentation.
Obviously whichever police cataloged the envelope and card into evidence would know.

Good luck even figuring out the case number (and again, strangely, evidence #003-* [the SHE card] is associated with a different case?! Um. Why???)
The page I showed references a case number 12-00 711-626 and a 12-00 771-626.

No way to tell which one is right, if either.

Couldn't a person FOIA them both? I'm not familiar with the process, but it seems like that information should be up for grabs. Either that or a legitimate reason why it isn't.

originally posted by: zazen
Couldn't a person FOIA them both? I'm not familiar with the process, but it seems like that information should be up for grabs. Either that or a legitimate reason why it isn't.

Yes, my friend --both files should absolutely have Freedom of Information Act requests filed on them.
I would probably also request some other variations on those numbers just in case neither is correct, if you catch my drift.

CT won't be formally responding to the requests for those files unless you have an attorney to file suit (just like the AP case you and I had discussed a few months ago)

a reply to: 3mperorConstantinE

Huh, need an attorney to file the FOIA?
Is that normal?

And does the attorney then get grilled for the reason for the request?